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Reasons the Gospels are Unreliable

stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/7/2012 6:09:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am currently writing a paper for school about the historic reliability of the gospels. So far I have about 10 pages and in order to write a couple more pages I want to get atheist/people of other religions objections to the historic reliability of the gospels. Thank you to anyone who gives input. I truly appreciate it.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/7/2012 6:20:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 6:09:09 PM, stubs wrote:
I am currently writing a paper for school about the historic reliability of the gospels. So far I have about 10 pages and in order to write a couple more pages I want to get atheist/people of other religions objections to the historic reliability of the gospels. Thank you to anyone who gives input. I truly appreciate it.

Annonymous authors.

Even if the authors are taken at face value through traditional views, they are still not eyewitnesses to any of the events and are only reporting hearsay testimonial evidence.

3 of the 4 gospels borrow heavily from each other going as far as completely copying from one, which makes no sense if the gospels are truly eyewitness events.

Written decades after the events took place.

Existance of apocryphal, sometimes contrary gospels that were merely voted out by early church fathers, with the church fathers who supported them, being exiled or excommunicated for supporting heretical texts.

Thats all i can think of off the top of my head.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/7/2012 6:33:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Serpents cannot talk, turning water into wine in an instant magically contradicts chemistry, walking on water contradicts physics, people cannot be raised from the dead (this contradicts medical practices). Bushes cannot burn forever (if they could, where is it now?). Basically, the fact that they had no standard for objective reality back then as we do now explains the outlandish interpretations of reality. It's clear that the accuracy of some of the stories could only exist if our standard of reality currently was false. Until someone shows me that physics can be defied, chemistry as we know it can be defied, and that the natural laws can be suspended then it's obvious that a lot of The Bible is plain old hooey.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/7/2012 6:36:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 6:33:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Serpents cannot talk, turning water into wine in an instant magically contradicts chemistry, walking on water contradicts physics, people cannot be raised from the dead (this contradicts medical practices). Bushes cannot burn forever (if they could, where is it now?). Basically, the fact that they had no standard for objective reality back then as we do now explains the outlandish interpretations of reality. It's clear that the accuracy of some of the stories could only exist if our standard of reality currently was false. Until someone shows me that physics can be defied, chemistry as we know it can be defied, and that the natural laws can be suspended then it's obvious that a lot of The Bible is plain old hooey.

Hes talking about the gospels, not the bible.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/7/2012 6:38:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 6:20:21 PM, tkubok wrote:


Annonymous authors.

Even if the authors are taken at face value through traditional views, they are still not eyewitnesses to any of the events and are only reporting hearsay testimonial evidence.

3 of the 4 gospels borrow heavily from each other going as far as completely copying from one, which makes no sense if the gospels are truly eyewitness events.

Written decades after the events took place.

Existance of apocryphal, sometimes contrary gospels that were merely voted out by early church fathers, with the church fathers who supported them, being exiled or excommunicated for supporting heretical texts.

Thats all i can think of off the top of my head.

If we take the authors at face value as you propose than Matthew and John would have been eyewitness because they were 2 of the twelve disciples.

People claim the synoptic gospels are too similar to be reliable yet they also claim there to be too many contradictions. Which one is it? If they really did borrow the information or copied it, wouldn't it make sense that there would be no contradictions?

There is evidence that the earliest gospel, Mark, was written 2-3 decades after the death of Jesus which is very early when compared to other biographies of people at the time such as Alexander the great. Also they do not conflict with Paul's writings which were written 3-8yrs after the death of Jesus.

The Apocrypha were written later than the gospels so why would we trust them over the gospels?

Thank you for your input. It has really helped.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/7/2012 6:40:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 6:33:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Serpents cannot talk, turning water into wine in an instant magically contradicts chemistry, walking on water contradicts physics, people cannot be raised from the dead (this contradicts medical practices). Bushes cannot burn forever (if they could, where is it now?). Basically, the fact that they had no standard for objective reality back then as we do now explains the outlandish interpretations of reality. It's clear that the accuracy of some of the stories could only exist if our standard of reality currently was false. Until someone shows me that physics can be defied, chemistry as we know it can be defied, and that the natural laws can be suspended then it's obvious that a lot of The Bible is plain old hooey.

While things in the old testament are very interesting to discuss I am more looking towards things in the gospels. If you would like to discuss old testament things like that please feel free to msg me
tkubok
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4/7/2012 7:20:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 6:38:39 PM, stubs wrote:
At 4/7/2012 6:20:21 PM, tkubok wrote:


Annonymous authors.

Even if the authors are taken at face value through traditional views, they are still not eyewitnesses to any of the events and are only reporting hearsay testimonial evidence.

3 of the 4 gospels borrow heavily from each other going as far as completely copying from one, which makes no sense if the gospels are truly eyewitness events.

Written decades after the events took place.

Existance of apocryphal, sometimes contrary gospels that were merely voted out by early church fathers, with the church fathers who supported them, being exiled or excommunicated for supporting heretical texts.

Thats all i can think of off the top of my head.

If we take the authors at face value as you propose than Matthew and John would have been eyewitness because they were 2 of the twelve disciples.

We already know of parts of the gospel where neither John nor Matthew couldve been present, where Jesus was alone. I suppose i shouldnt say NONE of the events, but still, most, yes.

People claim the synoptic gospels are too similar to be reliable yet they also claim there to be too many contradictions. Which one is it? If they really did borrow the information or copied it, wouldn't it make sense that there would be no contradictions?

Its both. Parts of Matthew and Luke borrow heavily from Mark, and also from another source. However, even within these, there are contradictions.

The reasons for the contradictions are the same as if i were to ask of you to write a historical account of the three lord of the rings books from memory. Surely you would get many many things wrong.

There is evidence that the earliest gospel, Mark, was written 2-3 decades after the death of Jesus which is very early when compared to other biographies of people at the time such as Alexander the great. Also they do not conflict with Paul's writings which were written 3-8yrs after the death of Jesus.

Actually, the conservative view is that it was written around 90 AD, which is about 60 years after Jesus' death. But still, seriously, can you recall with perfect memory something that occurred 30, even 20 years ago? Theres a reason why there is a statute of limitation on most crimes, because memories fade.

As for paul, not really, since paul went around after his conversion collecting stories from christians. Infact, after his blindness and initial converstion to Christianity, the place he stumbled upon was an apostles house, where it was claimed he was cured of his blindness. But the extent of Pauls writings about the individual gospels isnt very vast at all.

The difference between the Gospels, and, say, Alexander the great, is that the life and times of alexander doesnt contain any supernatural events to any important degree. Its why i have no problem with accepting that Muhammad existed, nor do many christians, but, just like all christians, i have a problem with accepting the events in the Quran and the Hadith as true, despite the fact that it was written and compiled both during and right after Muhammads death.

Look at it from this angle. There are people out there today, that you can actually physically meet and talk to, that claim they have been abducted by aliens. There are groups of people, couples, families, who have made these claims. If we were to compile these stories, and write a book about it, that book wouldnt be worth the paper it was printed on in regards to its historicity, accuracy and reliability.

The Apocrypha were written later than the gospels so why would we trust them over the gospels?

The gospel of Thomas, is placed anywhere from 40 AD to 140 AD, much like the other gospels, yet it was rejected and is considered apocryphal. The timescale that these apocryphal texts were written, doesnt differ in any significant way from the 4 gospels.

Thank you for your input. It has really helped.

No problem.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/7/2012 7:39:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 7:20:09 PM, tkubok wrote:

Thanks for the debate. Too much to respond to because I don't like debating in forums. I would love to talk more about this with you if you want to msg me.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/7/2012 7:41:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 7:39:17 PM, stubs wrote:
At 4/7/2012 7:20:09 PM, tkubok wrote:

Thanks for the debate. Too much to respond to because I don't like debating in forums. I would love to talk more about this with you if you want to msg me.

Sure. But everything i wrote, is in the message. If you want me to resent it to you in a message, thats fine too.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/7/2012 8:02:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/7/2012 7:41:23 PM, tkubok wrote:

Sure. But everything i wrote, is in the message. If you want me to resent it to you in a message, thats fine too.

yeah if you send it in a msg to me that would be cool. Can't promise when I'll get to it cause like I said I'm writing this paper right now haha but Ill try to get to it ASAP