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The Utter Illogic of ignoring the Witness

Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/9/2012 6:05:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The other day in the paper I was reading about a 13 year old middle school boy who had groped 7 different girls at his school. It had gone on for awhile apparently until one brave girl went to the right adults to tell what was done to her by that boy. After she did the other 6 soon followed and authorities stepped in and the boy was sent to a juvenile detention facility and expelled from school. This would have never happened had a witness (and victim) of the vile acts had not come forward to claim what had happened to her.

The are several cases and arguments made by atheist to reject that a god exist, but one of the lamest ones I ever hear, and hear constantly strangely enough is the argument to just disregard eyewitness testimonies.
It's a lame argument because one of the staples of how the truth has been discerned in courts for the longest of times has been to integrate the witness on just what happened. Of course the testimony of just one person has never been enough to hold to weight in courts eyes (to my knowledge) multiple ones are, and whether they are just one person or not to testify there called to the stand to give there account if its related to the court case just the same.
I suppose you could in any given court case ask the judge to not call any witnesses to the stand, after all you cant trust any of them, they could be liars or stupid right? But you don't get to say that before even bringing them up do you? Its after the witnesses are done being asked to come to the stand you might get to make such a case against one or two of them to discount there testimony but when you see you start to try and discount near everything everyone is saying as a mass delusion your so far out there we cant help but think its you who are the deluded one or your just don't like the truth that happens to be coming out of the witness testimonies. There's a certain point where if the witnesses testimony is numerous enough you have got to start to acknowledge that all the people are not liars or crazy but that something like what they described collectively did indeed happen.
If just one person tells you a dead man had raised from the dead and he saw him walking around the other day, Your still on solid enough ground to not believe him right away. But when you later are told by not just one but five hundred people who saw the same dead man Jesus Christ walking around alive again in there public square, even though you did not see it yourself you have to abandon logic itself to say they all must be hallucinating or lying to you. They all saw the same man walking in the public square and they all recognized him to be Jesus who had already been crucified at the time.

Fast forward to a more modern account of eyewitness testimonies that seem to get too easily discounted. Do Miracles ever happen? Perhaps you discount they don't, nothing supernatural ever happens, the witness who independently come to you with stories of miracles happening in there own lives are either something just they themselves saw or while it was miraculous in its improbability (successful risky operations or something like that) it was not strait up impossible to happen naturally. And I suppose you can safely do this when it comes to your friends or acquaintances of your friends witness when there testimony is an independent one. Your still within the solid ground of logic to not believe what they say happened was really what happened. They just did not understand what they saw, believed it to be what they wanted it to be, or they were outright lying. But when dealing with the multitudes of testimonies backing different miracles that supposedly happened during the 6-day war…. http://www.israelnationalnews.com... Its not a logical option to just write all the testimonies off as crazy hallucinations or liars.

Bottom line, is it possible that all people are lying or crazy when they tell me a tornado came through the town of draper just 25 miles away from where I live damaging homes and trees there while I myself was never allowed by the police to go check it out (I tried but the made me turn my truck around)? By the time I could drive in draper again the damage was repaired beyond my ability to notice it. I suppose they could all have been making this up or seen fear induced hallucinations of a tornado even though it was just a big wind, but I would not be thinking rationally if I chose to think that over thinking that all these people really did see a tornado and it really did damage there homes that are now fixed. The weight of how much there witness matters is enough to show me the truth of that, it was enough to show the police the truth of just how wicked a 13 year old boy was being to the girls at the school, and it should be enough to bear witness to the reality of the continued existence of miraculous events that show there is more to this world than just the natural.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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4/9/2012 6:12:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:05:10 PM, Marauder wrote:
The other day in the paper I was reading about a 13 year old middle school boy who had groped 7 different girls at his school. It had gone on for awhile apparently until one brave girl went to the right adults to tell what was done to her by that boy. After she did the other 6 soon followed and authorities stepped in and the boy was sent to a juvenile detention facility and expelled from school. This would have never happened had a witness (and victim) of the vile acts had not come forward to claim what had happened to her.

The are several cases and arguments made by atheist to reject that a god exist, but one of the lamest ones I ever hear, and hear constantly strangely enough is the argument to just disregard eyewitness testimonies.

I'm not too familiar with these arguments but based on my own limited understanding, the testimonies are mostly hearsay, no? It's like a decades long game of broken telephone.

It's a lame argument because one of the staples of how the truth has been discerned in courts for the longest of times has been to integrate the witness on just what happened. Of course the testimony of just one person has never been enough to hold to weight in courts eyes (to my knowledge) multiple ones are, and whether they are just one person or not to testify there called to the stand to give there account if its related to the court case just the same.

Courts don't take third party accounts, which is kind of what the Bible is made up of.

I suppose you could in any given court case ask the judge to not call any witnesses to the stand, after all you cant trust any of them, they could be liars or stupid right? But you don't get to say that before even bringing them up do you? Its after the witnesses are done being asked to come to the stand you might get to make such a case against one or two of them to discount there testimony but when you see you start to try and discount near everything everyone is saying as a mass delusion your so far out there we cant help but think its you who are the deluded one or your just don't like the truth that happens to be coming out of the witness testimonies. There's a certain point where if the witnesses testimony is numerous enough you have got to start to acknowledge that all the people are not liars or crazy but that something like what they described collectively did indeed happen.
If just one person tells you a dead man had raised from the dead and he saw him walking around the other day, Your still on solid enough ground to not believe him right away. But when you later are told by not just one but five hundred people who saw the same dead man Jesus Christ walking around alive again in there public square, even though you did not see it yourself you have to abandon logic itself to say they all must be hallucinating or lying to you. They all saw the same man walking in the public square and they all recognized him to be Jesus who had already been crucified at the time.

Fast forward to a more modern account of eyewitness testimonies that seem to get too easily discounted. Do Miracles ever happen? Perhaps you discount they don't, nothing supernatural ever happens, the witness who independently come to you with stories of miracles happening in there own lives are either something just they themselves saw or while it was miraculous in its improbability (successful risky operations or something like that) it was not strait up impossible to happen naturally. And I suppose you can safely do this when it comes to your friends or acquaintances of your friends witness when there testimony is an independent one. Your still within the solid ground of logic to not believe what they say happened was really what happened. They just did not understand what they saw, believed it to be what they wanted it to be, or they were outright lying. But when dealing with the multitudes of testimonies backing different miracles that supposedly happened during the 6-day war…. http://www.israelnationalnews.com... Its not a logical option to just write all the testimonies off as crazy hallucinations or liars.

Bottom line, is it possible that all people are lying or crazy when they tell me a tornado came through the town of draper just 25 miles away from where I live damaging homes and trees there while I myself was never allowed by the police to go check it out (I tried but the made me turn my truck around)? By the time I could drive in draper again the damage was repaired beyond my ability to notice it. I suppose they could all have been making this up or seen fear induced hallucinations of a tornado even though it was just a big wind, but I would not be thinking rationally if I chose to think that over thinking that all these people really did see a tornado and it really did damage there homes that are now fixed. The weight of how much there witness matters is enough to show me the truth of that, it was enough to show the police the truth of just how wicked a 13 year old boy was being to the girls at the school, and it should be enough to bear witness to the reality of the continued existence of miraculous events that show there is more to this world than just the natural.

Studies have shown suggestion is a powerful thing, so it does make sense to take these "testimonies" with a grain of salt. If a girl comes forward and says a guy molested her and it just happened and other witnesses come forward, then you've got something. But if this girl is now 40 and has no recollection of the molestation until a visit with a psychiatrist (like Freud) spontaneously "resurfaces" memories from 30 years ago that nobody's ever heard of, well...
yang.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/9/2012 6:18:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Marauder, there have been hundreds of eyewitness accounts that claim that the U.S. government has contacted aliens and consists of Reptilians. Do you believe them?
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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4/9/2012 6:22:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:18:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Marauder, there have been hundreds of eyewitness accounts that claim that the U.S. government has contacted aliens and consists of Reptilians. Do you believe them?

Are the aliens reptilian or the government?
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royalpaladin
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4/9/2012 6:25:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:22:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 6:18:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Marauder, there have been hundreds of eyewitness accounts that claim that the U.S. government has contacted aliens and consists of Reptilians. Do you believe them?

Are the aliens reptilian or the government?

The government
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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4/9/2012 6:29:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:25:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/9/2012 6:22:59 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 6:18:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Marauder, there have been hundreds of eyewitness accounts that claim that the U.S. government has contacted aliens and consists of Reptilians. Do you believe them?

Are the aliens reptilian or the government?

The government

hmm that I might believe... But you make a good point. Eyewitness accounts are not simply credible, with nothing else suggesting they may be true.. we certainly shouldn't ignore them, (in cases where it isn't insane) but are not inherently accurate.
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Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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4/9/2012 6:31:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
People get drunk.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
airmax1227
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4/9/2012 6:32:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:31:45 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
People get drunk.

And lots of people are insane, and bored.
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tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/9/2012 7:07:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:05:10 PM, Marauder wrote:
The other day in the paper I was reading about a 13 year old middle school boy who had groped 7 different girls at his school. It had gone on for awhile apparently until one brave girl went to the right adults to tell what was done to her by that boy. After she did the other 6 soon followed and authorities stepped in and the boy was sent to a juvenile detention facility and expelled from school. This would have never happened had a witness (and victim) of the vile acts had not come forward to claim what had happened to her.

The are several cases and arguments made by atheist to reject that a god exist, but one of the lamest ones I ever hear, and hear constantly strangely enough is the argument to just disregard eyewitness testimonies.
It's a lame argument because one of the staples of how the truth has been discerned in courts for the longest of times has been to integrate the witness on just what happened. Of course the testimony of just one person has never been enough to hold to weight in courts eyes (to my knowledge) multiple ones are, and whether they are just one person or not to testify there called to the stand to give there account if its related to the court case just the same.
I suppose you could in any given court case ask the judge to not call any witnesses to the stand, after all you cant trust any of them, they could be liars or stupid right? But you don't get to say that before even bringing them up do you? Its after the witnesses are done being asked to come to the stand you might get to make such a case against one or two of them to discount there testimony but when you see you start to try and discount near everything everyone is saying as a mass delusion your so far out there we cant help but think its you who are the deluded one or your just don't like the truth that happens to be coming out of the witness testimonies. There's a certain point where if the witnesses testimony is numerous enough you have got to start to acknowledge that all the people are not liars or crazy but that something like what they described collectively did indeed happen.
If just one person tells you a dead man had raised from the dead and he saw him walking around the other day, Your still on solid enough ground to not believe him right away. But when you later are told by not just one but five hundred people who saw the same dead man Jesus Christ walking around alive again in there public square, even though you did not see it yourself you have to abandon logic itself to say they all must be hallucinating or lying to you. They all saw the same man walking in the public square and they all recognized him to be Jesus who had already been crucified at the time.

Fast forward to a more modern account of eyewitness testimonies that seem to get too easily discounted. Do Miracles ever happen? Perhaps you discount they don't, nothing supernatural ever happens, the witness who independently come to you with stories of miracles happening in there own lives are either something just they themselves saw or while it was miraculous in its improbability (successful risky operations or something like that) it was not strait up impossible to happen naturally. And I suppose you can safely do this when it comes to your friends or acquaintances of your friends witness when there testimony is an independent one. Your still within the solid ground of logic to not believe what they say happened was really what happened. They just did not understand what they saw, believed it to be what they wanted it to be, or they were outright lying. But when dealing with the multitudes of testimonies backing different miracles that supposedly happened during the 6-day war…. http://www.israelnationalnews.com... Its not a logical option to just write all the testimonies off as crazy hallucinations or liars.

Bottom line, is it possible that all people are lying or crazy when they tell me a tornado came through the town of draper just 25 miles away from where I live damaging homes and trees there while I myself was never allowed by the police to go check it out (I tried but the made me turn my truck around)? By the time I could drive in draper again the damage was repaired beyond my ability to notice it. I suppose they could all have been making this up or seen fear induced hallucinations of a tornado even though it was just a big wind, but I would not be thinking rationally if I chose to think that over thinking that all these people really did see a tornado and it really did damage there homes that are now fixed. The weight of how much there witness matters is enough to show me the truth of that, it was enough to show the police the truth of just how wicked a 13 year old boy was being to the girls at the school, and it should be enough to bear witness to the reality of the continued existence of miraculous events that show there is more to this world than just the natural.

Ordinary claims require ordinary evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If you come to me and say that youve just witnessed a child on a bike pedal down the street, i wouldnt doubt you. Your eyewitness account is sufficient for me to believe that the event happened.

If you come to me and say that youve just witnessed a fire breathing dinosaur stomp a car and then walk off, i would doubt you. Your eyewitness account is not sufficient for me to believe that the event happened.

In terms of Miracles, the problem isnt only that the claim is extraordinary and defies the physical laws, its that contrary claims are made about miracles all the time. Muslims, Christians, Hindus. George Harrison of the Beetles, was a Hindu, and claimed that if one devotes himself to the mantras and meditates, Krishna will appear, visibly, before them. That certainly is a miracle, one that George Harrison attests to being an eyewitness about.

Furthermore, we already know that eyewitness testimony can be extremely shakey. We know that peoples perceptions can, and are, fooled all the time. We know that emotional states influence perception as well.

Given everything above, the only fair, honest thing to do, is either reject all eyewitness claims and testimonies regarding miracles.
Marauder
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4/9/2012 8:46:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:12:08 PM, tulle wrote:

I'm not too familiar with these arguments but based on my own limited understanding, the testimonies are mostly hearsay, no? It's like a decades long game of broken telephone.

No the bible is not the same as a broken game of telephone. if it were purely just orally passing down the tales that are in it then I guess it could be but not when a written account is involved. referring back to their testimonies through-out the decades basically has always involved referring back to the same source material so no game like broken telephone.

Courts don't take third party accounts, which is kind of what the Bible is made up of.

no. for example where I mentioned 500 people seeing Jesus alive again was from 1 Corinthians 15. This was a letter between Paul and the church in Corinth for context to what he wrote in it http://www.biblegateway.com... Paul made refrence to them of the various people who could testify to to seeing Jesus alive raised from the dead. the list included himself along with many others. if an event where 500 people some of which were still alive at the time in the church, had seen jesus raised had not happened then the people of that church would not have preserved Pauls letter to pass on to teach others. they would have gone "Paul is now just telling lies that did never happened" but they could not cause they knew of those 500 people themselves, so they knew of the account from those who had it first hand themselves

Studies have shown suggestion is a powerful thing, so it does make sense to take these "testimonies" with a grain of salt. If a girl comes forward and says a guy molested her and it just happened and other witnesses come forward, then you've got something. But if this girl is now 40 and has no recollection of the molestation until a visit with a psychiatrist (like Freud) spontaneously "resurfaces" memories from 30 years ago that nobody's ever heard of, well...

miraculous events from the 6-day war are not from people who 'just remembered' them after seeing there psychiatrist. and all the stuff recorded in documents like the bible are definitely long before you get people like Freud. most advancements in psychiatry occurred during the world wars.

the case of the various witnesses who went out spreading the word in biblical days is not like a girl who came forward 30 years later. lots of people had seen Jesus and lots of them stepped out after his death to go out and tell others.

a witness, particularly when its from not one but several people about the same thing/ event, is no 'grain of salt'. its as serious as any other kind of evidence. Now I'm not saying its the same as flat out proof but too often I see the people on this sight just toss it aside like it was the silliest inconsequential thing in the world to consider

If I argue there is a Sasquatch and bring up how numerous people across the country have seen what from descriptions is this same creature it should take more than just a 'eye witness accounts don't matter' to drop the argument. you should have to give reasons of why in this case the witnesses are not valid when in others they are, and taken as good enough to sway court cases, and be incorporated in classroom history books as well.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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4/9/2012 8:56:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:18:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Marauder, there have been hundreds of eyewitness accounts that claim that the U.S. government has contacted aliens and consists of Reptilians. Do you believe them?

I sincerely don't know anything about the details to the whole reptilian thing so I could not say. if its anything like eyewitnesses for the 'pastafarian' religion then for really obvious reasons I would not. if they really are serious eyewitness accounts, some of which accounts coming from the more than one individual, while like I said does not make it rock solid proof I would need better reasons than just 'eyewitness mean nothing' to fully address the point to refute it. just saying 'well the only people who give those accounts are stupid' is just intellectual escape from actually having to think about it.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
royalpaladin
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4/9/2012 8:57:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 8:56:02 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/9/2012 6:18:19 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Marauder, there have been hundreds of eyewitness accounts that claim that the U.S. government has contacted aliens and consists of Reptilians. Do you believe them?

I sincerely don't know anything about the details to the whole reptilian thing so I could not say. if its anything like eyewitnesses for the 'pastafarian' religion then for really obvious reasons I would not. if they really are serious eyewitness accounts, some of which accounts coming from the more than one individual, while like I said does not make it rock solid proof I would need better reasons than just 'eyewitness mean nothing' to fully address the point to refute it. just saying 'well the only people who give those accounts are stupid' is just intellectual escape from actually having to think about it.

You should take a look at the Reptilian Conspiracy if only for the laughs. There is nothing satirical about it. Those people legitimately believe that the world is being dominated by aliens.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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4/9/2012 9:22:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 8:46:03 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/9/2012 6:12:08 PM, tulle wrote:

I'm not too familiar with these arguments but based on my own limited understanding, the testimonies are mostly hearsay, no? It's like a decades long game of broken telephone.

No the bible is not the same as a broken game of telephone. if it were purely just orally passing down the tales that are in it then I guess it could be but not when a written account is involved. referring back to their testimonies through-out the decades basically has always involved referring back to the same source material so no game like broken telephone.

Who wrote Genesis? Exodus? They weren't written at the time these events supposedly happened. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John's accounts of Jesus' death are all kind of different. I'm sure if I read the entire Bible I'd be able to come up with more examples :/


Courts don't take third party accounts, which is kind of what the Bible is made up of.

no. for example where I mentioned 500 people seeing Jesus alive again was from 1 Corinthians 15. This was a letter between Paul and the church in Corinth for context to what he wrote in it http://www.biblegateway.com... Paul made refrence to them of the various people who could testify to to seeing Jesus alive raised from the dead. the list included himself along with many others. if an event where 500 people some of which were still alive at the time in the church, had seen jesus raised had not happened then the people of that church would not have preserved Pauls letter to pass on to teach others. they would have gone "Paul is now just telling lies that did never happened" but they could not cause they knew of those 500 people themselves, so they knew of the account from those who had it first hand themselves

Studies have shown suggestion is a powerful thing, so it does make sense to take these "testimonies" with a grain of salt. If a girl comes forward and says a guy molested her and it just happened and other witnesses come forward, then you've got something. But if this girl is now 40 and has no recollection of the molestation until a visit with a psychiatrist (like Freud) spontaneously "resurfaces" memories from 30 years ago that nobody's ever heard of, well...

miraculous events from the 6-day war are not from people who 'just remembered' them after seeing there psychiatrist. and all the stuff recorded in documents like the bible are definitely long before you get people like Freud. most advancements in psychiatry occurred during the world wars.

the case of the various witnesses who went out spreading the word in biblical days is not like a girl who came forward 30 years later. lots of people had seen Jesus and lots of them stepped out after his death to go out and tell others.

a witness, particularly when its from not one but several people about the same thing/ event, is no 'grain of salt'. its as serious as any other kind of evidence. Now I'm not saying its the same as flat out proof but too often I see the people on this sight just toss it aside like it was the silliest inconsequential thing in the world to consider

If I argue there is a Sasquatch and bring up how numerous people across the country have seen what from descriptions is this same creature it should take more than just a 'eye witness accounts don't matter' to drop the argument. you should have to give reasons of why in this case the witnesses are not valid when in others they are, and taken as good enough to sway court cases, and be incorporated in classroom history books as well.

Hm that's interesting. I have no comment on this because I've never heard this before so I basically have to take your word for it. But I would like to ask if you've ever been on tumblr. People like to reblog "quotes" by famour people, and you would be amazed at how many people are misquoted and how many quotes are misattributed, and the number of people who take it as fact and reblog it.

The thing with these "eyewitness" account is that they happened so long ago. There are also eyewitness accounts for faith healers and magicians but that's no reason for me to believe Criss Angel is some sort of supernatural God (or demon).
yang.
Marauder
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4/9/2012 9:42:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 7:07:14 PM, tkubok wrote:

Ordinary claims require ordinary evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

that's another one of those weak excuses for just ignoring them given how subjective whats 'extraordinary' is. for example I tell you "I have seen a grey alien and he went in a triangular space ship" you could go "well I'm not going to believe what you say simply cause its not good enough to back something as extraordinary as extraterrestrial life existing" but the guy next to you goes "Its plenty enough for it isn't extraordinary at all, in fact it would be extraordinary if alien life didn't exist with how big the universe is..."

If you come to me and say that you've just witnessed a child on a bike pedal down the street, i wouldn't doubt you. Your eyewitness account is sufficient for me to believe that the event happened.

If you come to me and say that you've just witnessed a fire breathing dinosaur stomp a car and then walk off, i would doubt you. Your eyewitness account is not sufficient for me to believe that the event happened.

if you would humor me walk through with me in that hypothetical exchange where I tell you that, pretending I did see a fire breathing dinosaur stomp my car and walk off and then I had to tell you. so that its just a matter of my word thats being consider lets pretend the car is indeed flattened when you visit my house...

so I go
"Tkbok, man something you wouldnt believe happened here yesterday, a T-Rex just walked through my yard. I tried to approach it but it breathed fire of all things at my direction so I backed off to keep out of its range. it then flattened my mustang as it crossed my driveway and then just kept going until it made it too the woods across the street out of site."

then you say...
"your right I dont believe you..."

"but why tkbok my friend, we play poker, you know when I'm bluffing, and you told me once that your friends with me because you never find me lying. I thought my word was good with you, do you think I'm lying....." I plee getting a little offended

but you keeping a cool head trying to make sure i understood you wernt questioning the integrity of my overall word, you still think the world of me.....
"Look i know your a trustworthy guy, and I know the last thing you are is a liar, but what you just said is rather extrodary so I cant believe it..."

"well if I'm not lying then why am I saying I saw a t-rex to you..."
"I think you believe you saw a t-rex..."
"well what did I see tkbok...."

here's where I let you take over what your response would be. what would be really extraordinary is if you have the gaul to tell me that I'm stupid and thus saw the dinosaur. but what you would have to do is give me some kind of reason more than just 'what you say is too incredible to take your word'. you would have to give me a reason like "well I know you have been under a lot of stress since your divorce...." or "you were seen yesterday buying a crap tone of batteries at the convience store, I know what youve been making with them, let me help you...".

its almost shamefull to ignore me because the consequences of what I said is too amazing for you to handle if its true, 'so it must not be true' you decide on those grounds and just leave it at that.

In terms of Miracles, the problem isnt only that the claim is extraordinary and defies the physical laws, its that contrary claims are made about miracles all the time. Muslims, Christians, Hindus. George Harrison of the Beetles, was a Hindu, and claimed that if one devotes himself to the mantras and meditates, Krishna will appear, visibly, before them. That certainly is a miracle, one that George Harrison attests to being an eyewitness about.
your confusing an explanation for an experience with the experience when referring to whats contrary in that. his experience was seeing Krishna visibly he claimed, while devotion to the mantras and meditation was his explanation/theory on how anyone can see Krishna.

Furthermore, we already know that eyewitness testimony can be extremely shakey. We know that peoples perceptions can, and are, fooled all the time. We know that emotional states influence perception as well.
to a limited degree

Given everything above, the only fair, honest thing to do, is either reject all eyewitness claims and testimonies regarding miracles.

no, that's the stupid thing to do, the intellectual escape from having to deal with the testimony of the miracles. the honest fair thing to do if you must discount them is not just discount them because there testimonies of miracles, deciding what the truth is just based on what fits your world view already, but to discount them because you argue against each miracle what happened and how they were fooled. "well you see what david copperfield does is hide that lady behind a mirror when she supposedly vanishes, you just thought she turned to smoke because your eyes cant tell the difference in a reflection of the floor and the floor..."
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
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4/9/2012 10:11:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 9:22:19 PM, tulle wrote:

Who wrote Genesis? Exodus? They weren't written at the time these events supposedly happened. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John's accounts of Jesus' death are all kind of different. I'm sure if I read the entire Bible I'd be able to come up with more examples :/

Every book in the bible is not backed by the first degree witness account that I made this thread about no so I'm not arguing to every example of passages from the bible on it. but the point about witness testimony does cover the passages that are the testimonies of the early church, much of which is the new testament but there are some old testament stuff too like Jeremiah for example.

Hm that's interesting. I have no comment on this because I've never heard this before so I basically have to take your word for it.
Take my word for what? that people claim to see bigfoot? I'm not trying to convince you bigfoot exist or even about the nature of the miracles in the 6 day war, but just to get across a point. the point that its not enough to just write them off as not counting because they are eye-witness testimonies. It means something when people in large groups see the same miraculous thing happen. when its brought up you can make a case for why what they saw was not what they thought it was but its stupid to just say their word does not mean anything because durrrrrr.....peoples word doesnt mean anything. do explain 'those people where under the influnce of drugs...."
But I would like to ask if you've ever been on tumblr. People like to reblog "quotes" by famour people, and you would be amazed at how many people are misquoted and how many quotes are misattributed, and the number of people who take it as fact and reblog it.

again, the bible is not a rebloged book, its not hard to get a copy of a genuien copy of one for yourself, I could even link you a sight with every passage thats in the actual book itself, and its been taken care of a little better than the random stuff celebs say on tumblre.
The thing with these "eyewitness" account is that they happened so long ago. There are also eyewitness accounts for faith healers and magicians but that's no reason for me to believe Criss Angel is some sort of supernatural God (or demon).

Criss Angel openly calls himself an illusionist so actually there's even less reason than even that for thinking he's got demon powers

but if you choose to bring up a point like this when someone brings up an eyewitness account your at the least admitting what they saw happen on some level actually happen, even if they did not understand it was a illusion and so your next step is to argue what caused the illusion
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Lickdafoot
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4/9/2012 10:18:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is an interesting thread and I'd like to start off by saying that witness accounts can be highly swayed due to influence. Two people are sitting in a boat and they see a log drifting in the water. One person says it is a shark and now the other one is freaking out even though he didn't necessarily think that in the first place.

That being said, I will read the thread before commenting further.
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Lickdafoot
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4/9/2012 10:42:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 6:05:10 PM, Marauder wrote:
The other day in the paper I was reading about a 13 year old middle school boy who had groped 7 different girls at his school. It had gone on for awhile apparently until one brave girl went to the right adults to tell what was done to her by that boy. After she did the other 6 soon followed and authorities stepped in and the boy was sent to a juvenile detention facility and expelled from school. This would have never happened had a witness (and victim) of the vile acts had not come forward to claim what had happened to her.

The are several cases and arguments made by atheist to reject that a god exist, but one of the lamest ones I ever hear, and hear constantly strangely enough is the argument to just disregard eyewitness testimonies.
It's a lame argument because one of the staples of how the truth has been discerned in courts for the longest of times has been to integrate the witness on just what happened. Of course the testimony of just one person has never been enough to hold to weight in courts eyes (to my knowledge) multiple ones are, and whether they are just one person or not to testify there called to the stand to give there account if its related to the court case just the same.
I suppose you could in any given court case ask the judge to not call any witnesses to the stand, after all you cant trust any of them, they could be liars or stupid right? But you don't get to say that before even bringing them up do you? Its after the witnesses are done being asked to come to the stand you might get to make such a case against one or two of them to discount there testimony but when you see you start to try and discount near everything everyone is saying as a mass delusion your so far out there we cant help but think its you who are the deluded one or your just don't like the truth that happens to be coming out of the witness testimonies. There's a certain point where if the witnesses testimony is numerous enough you have got to start to acknowledge that all the people are not liars or crazy but that something like what they described collectively did indeed happen.

And what we have as far as eyewitness accounts is the bible. So when you read the bible, you might judge it as if you were judging a witness in court. Does this person make sense? Does it align with the other information that we have learned thus far? Do they have a hidden intent or agenda? Do they seem honest?

And only some people accept the accounts as truth. Even though historical evidence aligns with the basics of his story. Even though the story makes perfect theological sense, in my mind.

A quote springs to mind.

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath"

Jesus explaining why he spoke in parables. I think it also answers the question as to why the evidence is not so overwhelming as to be largely non-refutable.

Most records from that time spoke of him as being in the least, an amazing person with mysteries around him. It's still a leap of faith to go from that to believing his miracles and believing the bible. Although, if something looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
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