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Why do Theists value life?

Rational_Thinker9119
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4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/9/2012 10:43:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

your the one saying something that makes absolutely no sense, placing value on everthing purly for its finiteness. 'wind-turbines cost more money right now then what I will get from its power this month so its worthless....' Wind turbines are a long term investment and thus thats what makes them a valuble thing to buy to get power from.

a candy bar is really finite and thus almost worthless, you can get it for a buck. you eat it, its gone, its no more. how long you get to keep something matters everthing in how valuable it is. a car with a lot of miles on it goes pretty cheap for cars because all buyers know it wont be long before it has to hit a scrap yard after too much use. but a new car with no miles on it sells for a lot! its still got all its life in it and it will be a long time before you worry about getting a new one.

the only exceptions to things that are older and closer to there end would be like a old car a collector would want. and its not valuable because it would come to its end sooner if it were driven much, its valuable because it was preserved and its unique.

gold is like that too, artifacts made long ago out of gold, its not valuable because the gold will one day rust, it valuable because it was kept from rusting. and originally it was valuable because it was a soft metal that could be used to make tools before smelting was developed.

you have to be a little brain dead to put highest importance the things that are not always going to be something you deal with. its good that you enjoy the finite things while you still have them, but it does not make them priority over your soul.

like your body will likely last longer than your next meal. but because you value things that are going to end sooner and not the things that last longer you decide to enjoy as much of the food you know will rot in the future as you can while you eat it. but your habit of doing this makes you obese within time and while you always enjoy your food, you always live with a fat tub of lard for a body that you dont take care of since after all 'you'll always have it'
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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4/9/2012 10:47:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

You cannot appreciate or value anything unless you have the consciousness to. Therefore, life is the epitome of value.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/9/2012 10:50:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

that's an interesting take on it, but I think that form of valuation only works for material items. The internet is infinite, but by that logic it should be free
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/9/2012 11:09:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:47:21 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

You cannot appreciate or value anything unless you have the consciousness to. Therefore, life is the epitome of value.

This is a valid response.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/9/2012 11:21:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"your the one saying something that makes absolutely no sense, placing value on everthing purly for its finiteness."

I never said that, I just said it's hard to value something that lasts forever.

"a candy bar is really finite and thus almost worthless"

The materials that make candy bars in an abundance.

"a car with a lot of miles on it goes pretty cheap for cars because all buyers know it wont be long before it has to hit a scrap yard"

The materials that make a car are in abundance, your arguments are absolutely horrible.

"its good that you enjoy the finite things while you still have them, but it does not make them priority over your soul."

There is no valid reasoning that leads to a soul existing...Also, if your Ipod lasted forever would you care about dropping it? Buying a warranty? No, there is no reason to value something take care of/ value something that lasts forever.

"like your body will likely last longer than your next meal."

Your analogies are missing the point, it's not about placing value one something just because it's finite (I was just using analogies of my own to prove a point). It's about it being illogical to place value one something that lasts forever.

How can something that lasts forever, be valuable? You can't escape it even if you wanted to, it lasts forever. It doesn't matter if you try to damage it, it lasts forever, how can it be valuable?

Things need to end in order for them to be truly appreciated, if something just lasts forever then it's worthless in my opinion.
Lickdafoot
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4/9/2012 11:33:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 11:09:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:47:21 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

You cannot appreciate or value anything unless you have the consciousness to. Therefore, life is the epitome of value.

This is a valid response.

I try. :P

Anyways, you are speaking about the value of items that all are finite. No materials last forever.

Let's change the perspective a bit. What would you give more value to- a longlasting relationship, 2 people who loved each other throughout their life, or two people who had fleeting feelings for one another?

Do you value one bottle of water over a spring, with the potential of supplying a lifetime of water?

Do you value one fish to eat over the knowledge to catch a fish to eat as long as there are fish around?

Clearly, the ability to persist through time gives something more inherent value. Everything is finite in a material sense. It is the natural presupposition of materials to be finite. That does not mean that the reason to value something is because it is finite. In fact, because everything is predisposed to perish, we value things more if they last us longer.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Lickdafoot
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4/9/2012 11:38:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 11:21:39 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Things need to end in order for them to be truly appreciated, if something just lasts forever then it's worthless in my opinion.

How can you appreciate your life after it is gone?
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/9/2012 11:44:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 11:21:39 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
"your the one saying something that makes absolutely no sense, placing value on everthing purly for its finiteness."

I never said that, I just said it's hard to value something that lasts forever.

"a candy bar is really finite and thus almost worthless"

The materials that make candy bars in an abundance.

"a car with a lot of miles on it goes pretty cheap for cars because all buyers know it wont be long before it has to hit a scrap yard"

The materials that make a car are in abundance, your arguments are absolutely horrible.

notice how you so quickly have to retreate to dropping the whole lenght of its duration as what makes it valuble to its replaceablility and its abundance as the actual source of how you value it. you only have one you you ever get to take care of though, and you DEFINITELY cant be replaced, your parents could have sex and end up having another kid and it still would not be another you. from a theist perspective you still are only going to happen just the one time to this world.
"its good that you enjoy the finite things while you still have them, but it does not make them priority over your soul."

There is no valid reasoning that leads to a soul existing...
kind of a stupid thing to pick at considering you started this conversation to consider the value of a life that last forever...
Also, if your Ipod lasted forever would you care about dropping it? Buying a warranty? No, there is no reason to value something take care of/ value something that lasts forever.

"like your body will likely last longer than your next meal."

Your analogies are missing the point, it's not about placing value one something just because it's finite (I was just using analogies of my own to prove a point). It's about it being illogical to place value one something that lasts forever.

How can something that lasts forever, be valuable? You can't escape it even if you wanted to, it lasts forever. It doesn't matter if you try to damage it, it lasts forever, how can it be valuable?

Things need to end in order for them to be truly appreciated, if something just lasts forever then it's worthless in my opinion.

that's not your opinion and if you look honestly at yourself you would see it. I know this because of how you responded to all the above. you want to retreat and say "well I was just using analogies of my own to prove a point" and abandon the system of valuing things for there finiteness when your no longer talking about your soul. If you cant measure the same standard elseware then your not being honest with yourself when you start using it conveniently to talk about your life so that you could help convince yourself 'well it looks better to me than it would in heaven forever'
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/9/2012 11:50:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 11:38:09 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:21:39 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Things need to end in order for them to be truly appreciated, if something just lasts forever then it's worthless in my opinion.

How can you appreciate your life after it is gone?

he means purely appreciating it right now, when its gone he's no more to appreciate anything at all when his Ipad breacks its no more to be appreciated, but he wanted to appreciate it while he had it.

but appreciation and value are nooooot realllllly the same thing at all. I put value in taking care of the planets future by recycling even if I'm not particular enjoying hauling my trash to the dump right now.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite. "Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as valuable as it is now.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God. Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.
KeytarHero
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4/10/2012 1:36:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Actually, I should amend my previous post. I meant to say that in philosophy, when we talk about humans being "finite," it doesn't mean they don't last forever. It means that we are limited. Especially since we believe that we will last forever, even though not necessarily in our mortal bodies.
tkubok
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4/10/2012 2:01:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite. "Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as valuable as it is now.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God. Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.

Thats kinda the point though.

The reason why Gold is valuable is because it is limited in quantity.

The reason life is valuable is because it is limited in timespan.

If an influx of Gold from the moon became available to humans, its value would go down. The more Gold that becomes availeable, the less its value would be. Let alone an infinite source of Gold, and it would become useless.

So why isnt the same true with life.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/10/2012 3:34:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 2:01:14 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite. "Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as valuable as it is now.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God. Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.

Thats kinda the point though.

The reason why Gold is valuable is because it is limited in quantity.

The reason life is valuable is because it is limited in timespan.

If an influx of Gold from the moon became available to humans, its value would go down. The more Gold that becomes availeable, the less its value would be. Let alone an infinite source of Gold, and it would become useless.

So why isnt the same true with life.

Exactly, "weight in gold" is the "time span of life" in the analogy...If "life" was a market, then it would be flooded infinitely in the theistic world view.

If person A has a bag of gold, and that's all they have, they are going to value it and spend it wiser than Person B who has a bag of gold, but an infinite amount of gold waiting for him after this Person B spends it. Why would person B care about wasting money? Why would he care about losing any of it? He wouldn't, he has an infinite amount of gold waiting for him after he spends his bag. Another example would be a faithful relationship, lets say you dated a girl and somehow knew that no matter what happened she would never leave you and continue to be a faithful girlfriend...Would you care about flirting with other girls as much? Treating your Gf bad as much? She's not going to leave you anyway, you are together forever...If you know that something will never leave you and will be with you forever, you aren't going to value it as much, it's a logical argument I'm making despite what Theists want to believe.

I see no logic in placing value in life if it just lasts forever after death anyway, it completely takes away the value of human life.

To be honest I don't even know why Theists want to live on Earth, if Heaven is a better place and you have to die to get there, then what's the point of living on earth? Don't you want to spend eternity with Jesus and God in the divine kingdom? If a Theist gets a disease that could kill them, there is no logic in them going to the doctor to try and get it reversed. They should be jumping up for joy that they get to go to heaven, and their family members should all be envious that he gets to go and they don't. You never see that of course because I believe the Theist doesn't actually believe in the afterlife deep down, it's just an idea they believe on the surface that helps them cope with this life and helps dealing with the death of loved ones (I have no evidence to back up that claim and I could be wrong, it's just a personal hunch).
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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4/10/2012 4:32:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite.

The Fool: the speaker can't be wrong about the idea expressed when they use it. Its not a faulty definition of finite. Its a very common use, Finite in its most common interpretation does mean that there is a limit. Again you are not a Theologin NOT a philosopher. You guys have just started calling yourself that to make up for horrible credibility stop trying to hide. You are a phony theologin and thats it.

"Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as value as it is now. No its woudn't be.

The Fool: no things would be a lot less value, things are valued because we are limited in time. If we new we existed forever, we wouldn't have make an after world in the first place, why get gold now. we have to forever to get anything we want. The fact is the limitation of time. We want to make sure to get enjoyment in this life time. We and nore do you know.(TJB) that there is anything more after.
All you have is B, you are missing the other qualifications.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God.

The Fool: you mean God is made in our image. To say the other wise is faith based only.

Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.

The Fool: the soul use to be the mind back then. give me one example of what is valuable, without your mind. That is no emotional pleasure, no memories, no knowledge, not even of yourself, your family, your life. What is left!?? What could you account for in the soul having any meaning which does not depend on your mind.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
tBoonePickens
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4/10/2012 5:00:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is.
A pile of gold that lasts forever is still pretty valuable unless gold itself became very abundant. It's not that it lasts forever but the fact that it is scarce.

How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death?
Well think about it: you are judged for ETERNITY based on your actions in life (85 years if you're lucky.) So let's do the math: 85 / oo = 0; so for nothing (ie 0) you will either suffer for eternity or be happy for eternity. How could you not value life?

What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway?
Last I checked the average age is about 85 years...pretty far from forever.

It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...
Why are you equivocating life and afterlife when you know that they are not the same?

Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.
Yes, so if a person reaches the afterlife then perhaps they might reach that conclusion but till then we only have the 1 life given. However, I doubt one would complain of an eternal afterlife that's pleasant.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.
So you are saying that only theists would have a desire to live forever? I think you know better than that. Besides, how can theists that have not yet experienced an eternal afterlife make judgments about its worth?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
tkubok
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4/10/2012 5:43:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 5:00:35 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Well think about it: you are judged for ETERNITY based on your actions in life (85 years if you're lucky.) So let's do the math: 85 / oo = 0; so for nothing (ie 0) you will either suffer for eternity or be happy for eternity. How could you not value life?

Let me address this, because i am sick and tired of people making this argument.

What part of christianity tells you that you cannot enter heaven based on your actions in your life? It is universally agreed upon by most christians, that it doesnt matter how good you are, how nice, how much you donate, how much charity work you do, how much you help around the house, all of this is irrelevant to whether you get into heaven.

The only thing that matters, to most christians who agree that it is through faith and not works that we are saved, is that you believe in Jesus and God. Does it matter if you were a rapist, a murderer, a greedy corporate thug? Does it matter if youve raped and killed 10, 100, 1000 young girls? According to the christian Doctrine, no, because any sin is forgiveable.

Dont you dare come to me and say that I am to be judged for an eternity based on the actions of my life. All that matters is one action, one belief. All others are irrelevant.

Furthermore, you have it wrong. No christian who labels themselves christian, atleast that ive ever seen or met, believes they are going to hell. Therefore this eternal punishment thing is a non-issue with them, because its not an option.

So you are saying that only theists would have a desire to live forever? I think you know better than that. Besides, how can theists that have not yet experienced an eternal afterlife make judgments about its worth?

I dont think you understand just how long an eternity is.

Have you ever watched the TV show Star Trek Voyager? Theres an episode there called "Death Wish", where an omnipotent, all power being called Q, wants to end his life, because he has seen everything, experienced everything, and immortality has become unbearable.

On the surface, sure, Id like to live forever. Much like, if i didnt give it much thought, id love to have a bag that keeps pumping out money, for eternity. But when i consider it in practical terms, then no. If i had a bag that would do such a thing, the economy would collapse. It would be the same as inflation, when a country prints too much money and even a thousand dollars wouldnt be enough to buy a candy bar.

I suppose if God gives me a lobptomy and i became a mumbling idiot whose only emotion is happiness, who could be entertained by a sheet of paper for hours on end, i would appreciate eternity. However, when i think about it from a practical point of view, no, eternity would get boring, fast.

Also, yes, we can make a judgement call about eternal afterlife, because we understand the concept. Ive never experienced owning a castle, but i can still determine and understand its worth.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/10/2012 5:57:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 5:00:35 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is.
A pile of gold that lasts forever is still pretty valuable unless gold itself became very abundant. It's not that it lasts forever but the fact that it is scarce.

How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death?
Well think about it: you are judged for ETERNITY based on your actions in life (85 years if you're lucky.) So let's do the math: 85 / oo = 0; so for nothing (ie 0) you will either suffer for eternity or be happy for eternity. How could you not value life?

What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway?
Last I checked the average age is about 85 years...pretty far from forever.

It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...
Why are you equivocating life and afterlife when you know that they are not the same?

Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.
Yes, so if a person reaches the afterlife then perhaps they might reach that conclusion but till then we only have the 1 life given. However, I doubt one would complain of an eternal afterlife that's pleasant.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.
So you are saying that only theists would have a desire to live forever? I think you know better than that. Besides, how can theists that have not yet experienced an eternal afterlife make judgments about its worth?

"A pile of gold that lasts forever is still pretty valuable unless gold itself became very abundant. It's not that it lasts forever but the fact that it is scarce."

If a pile of Gold can last forever, then Gold cannot be scarce.

"Well think about it: you are judged for ETERNITY based on your actions in life (85 years if you're lucky.) So let's do the math: 85 / oo = 0; so for nothing (ie 0) you will either suffer for eternity or be happy for eternity. How could you not value life?"

You value life out of fear of Hell, then you never truly valued it. Think about it...

"Last I checked the average age is about 85 years...pretty far from forever."

Agreed, but the Theist doesn't believe so. Death is just a transition to them it's not actually death (death is defined as the end of life), because their life doesn't end it continues in heaven. Theists don't actually believe in the real implications of their death, if they do it's only do out of fear of an imaginary Hell.

"Why are you equivocating life and afterlife when you know that they are not the same?"

The afterlife is defined as life after death, so think about it..

To the Theist it's life and then life 2.0 right after. Even though it's a different form of life, there existence and life lasts forever according to their world view.

The Afterlife = Life after death
Death = End of life

So the Theist believes in life after the end of life, that makes no sense. Therefore, they must believe in an infinite life with death being just a transition from one form of life to another.

"Yes, so if a person reaches the afterlife then perhaps they might reach that conclusion but till then we only have the 1 life given. However, I doubt one would complain of an eternal afterlife that's pleasant."

To quote Jim Jefferies:

"I don't care how blissful it is, it's eternal. You'll get used to it, and you'll be f*cking bored"

"So you are saying that only theists would have a desire to live forever? I think you know better than that."

There is a difference between desire and belief.

I want a million dollars, that doesn't mean I'm going to drop the only money I actually do have on a new car because I believe I have a million in some swiss bank account to spare when I really don't. I think you know better than that..

"Besides, how can theists that have not yet experienced an eternal afterlife make judgments about its worth?"

Ok, I see where you believe I was equivocating now (sorry about that). I mean that belief in life 2.0 devalues life 1.0 and this is not good because life 1.0 most likely is all there is. The "gold in the bag" in the analogy = Life 1.0 and "the infinite gold that waits" = life 2.0 and life 1.0 + Life 2.0 = The totality of what the theist believes life is.

Hope that clears some confusion.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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4/10/2012 6:03:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

This lacks greatly in good theology. Gold is valuable because it represents a price. If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years) it would still still have value because of it's quality, as it is a quality metal.

In the same way, humans are valued in a theistic world view (Christian at least) because we hold in us the actual image of God. We contain the characteristics of God, which are eternally in us. We are valued further because we were created by God, which alone gives us great, if not eternal value. Even more, we are each incredibly different, not one person is a like. And that again alone makes us valuable, even from a secular point of view.

The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/10/2012 6:13:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 6:03:29 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

This lacks greatly in good theology. Gold is valuable because it represents a price. If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years) it would still still have value because of it's quality, as it is a quality metal.

In the same way, humans are valued in a theistic world view (Christian at least) because we hold in us the actual image of God. We contain the characteristics of God, which are eternally in us. We are valued further because we were created by God, which alone gives us great, if not eternal value. Even more, we are each incredibly different, not one person is a like. And that again alone makes us valuable, even from a secular point of view.

The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?

"If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years)"

You don't get the gold analogy. I'm comparing a certain supply if weight in Gold to time of life. An eternal Gold supply in a foreign bank account for example equates to an eternal life in heaven, and a bag of gold equates to human life span on Earth.

"The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?"

Because this is all we have, it's not logical to not value the only thing you have now is it?...However, if I believed life just continued forever after this there would be no reason to care about this life. This life would just be a waiting room and not the real deal, this obviously devalues the only life you have (which is my whole point).
GodSands
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4/10/2012 6:41:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 6:13:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 6:03:29 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

This lacks greatly in good theology. Gold is valuable because it represents a price. If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years) it would still still have value because of it's quality, as it is a quality metal.

In the same way, humans are valued in a theistic world view (Christian at least) because we hold in us the actual image of God. We contain the characteristics of God, which are eternally in us. We are valued further because we were created by God, which alone gives us great, if not eternal value. Even more, we are each incredibly different, not one person is a like. And that again alone makes us valuable, even from a secular point of view.

The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?

"If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years)"

You don't get the gold analogy. I'm comparing a certain supply if weight in Gold to time of life. An eternal Gold supply in a foreign bank account for example equates to an eternal life in heaven, and a bag of gold equates to human life span on Earth.

"The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?"

Because this is all we have, it's not logical to not value the only thing you have now is it?...However, if I believed life just continued forever after this there would be no reason to care about this life. This life would just be a waiting room and not the real deal, this obviously devalues the only life you have (which is my whole point).

Ok I understand your analogy now. But your analogy isn't consistent with Christian theology. Christian theology actually says we are valued, not because of who we are, but because of who God is. Therefore, we could be bags of dirt, or bags of gold. In that the hope is that we will rise like Christ did and become like Christ. A theist values life now due to the knowledge of judgement, without judgement, why not do what you want. Don't value life or value life, why would it matter without judgement? Christianity is also strongly about caring, and treating each other with love. We value life because what happens in this life will reflect in judgement.

Now you might think life is valuable because this is all we have, but hypothetically, I might point a gun at you and say, "Your death by me killing you now is valuable to me." Since all we are is chemical/bio devices reacting to one another.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/10/2012 7:40:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 6:41:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 4/10/2012 6:13:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 6:03:29 PM, GodSands wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

This lacks greatly in good theology. Gold is valuable because it represents a price. If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years) it would still still have value because of it's quality, as it is a quality metal.

In the same way, humans are valued in a theistic world view (Christian at least) because we hold in us the actual image of God. We contain the characteristics of God, which are eternally in us. We are valued further because we were created by God, which alone gives us great, if not eternal value. Even more, we are each incredibly different, not one person is a like. And that again alone makes us valuable, even from a secular point of view.

The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?

"If gold lasted forever (which doesn't make much sense coming from you, believing that it has been around for millions upon millions of years)"

You don't get the gold analogy. I'm comparing a certain supply if weight in Gold to time of life. An eternal Gold supply in a foreign bank account for example equates to an eternal life in heaven, and a bag of gold equates to human life span on Earth.

"The question really is, why do you as an atheist value the human race? If all we are is rearranged chemical/bio devices?"

Because this is all we have, it's not logical to not value the only thing you have now is it?...However, if I believed life just continued forever after this there would be no reason to care about this life. This life would just be a waiting room and not the real deal, this obviously devalues the only life you have (which is my whole point).

Ok I understand your analogy now. But your analogy isn't consistent with Christian theology. Christian theology actually says we are valued, not because of who we are, but because of who God is. Therefore, we could be bags of dirt, or bags of gold. In that the hope is that we will rise like Christ did and become like Christ. A theist values life now due to the knowledge of judgement, without judgement, why not do what you want. Don't value life or value life, why would it matter without judgement? Christianity is also strongly about caring, and treating each other with love. We value life because what happens in this life will reflect in judgement.

Now you might think life is valuable because this is all we have, but hypothetically, I might point a gun at you and say, "Your death by me killing you now is valuable to me." Since all we are is chemical/bio devices reacting to one another.

"Christian theology actually says we are valued, not because of who we are, but because of who God is. Therefore, we could be bags of dirt, or bags of gold. In that the hope is that we will rise like Christ did and become like Christ."

You you don't actually value humanity itself, you value the spirituality you believe comes after completing humanity. This is like saying you value the "bench" because it leads to the "game", but in reality the root of your value is placed on the "game" (afterlife) not the "bench" (human life). I'm saying that what you call the bench, I believe is the only game, so I'm more likely to value it.

"A theist values life now due to the knowledge of judgement, without judgement, why not do what you want. Don't value life or value life, why would it matter without judgement?"

So you are saying that without fear of judgement, you would go running around raping people and murdering them? I don't fear any judgement (I believe the idea of God is a bunch of man made hooey), you don't see me raping people and murdering them without remorse. If your moral system is "be good or else you will lose points with the man upstairs" then that is not a good moral system, you should do good because it's good for humanity not because you fear going to an imaginary hell. Those are selfish reasons to be good.

"Christianity is also strongly about caring, and treating each other with love. We value life because what happens in this life will reflect in judgement."

You don't get it do you. For example you may value an exam because it may get you into the right college, but what you are really waiting for and valuing is the college you don't actually care about the exam itself. Basically, your end game value is placed in something that might no even exist. This is a scary thought for me that some people think this way, in my opinion.

"Now you might think life is valuable because this is all we have, but hypothetically, I might point a gun at you and say, "Your death by me killing you now is valuable to me." Since all we are is chemical/bio devices reacting to one another."

What do you mean by "all"? Inferring that all humans aren't valuable because "all" we are chemical/bio devices reacting to one another is like saying a rainbow isn't beautiful because "all" it is, is the sun shining on to droplets of moisture in the Earth's atmosphere.

Why do you place so little value in biological life? For what? A chance to go to a heaven that almost certainly does not exist? Doesn't sound like a very good reason...
KeytarHero
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4/11/2012 9:27:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 2:01:14 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite. "Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as valuable as it is now.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God. Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.

Thats kinda the point though.

The reason why Gold is valuable is because it is limited in quantity.

The reason life is valuable is because it is limited in timespan.

If an influx of Gold from the moon became available to humans, its value would go down. The more Gold that becomes availeable, the less its value would be. Let alone an infinite source of Gold, and it would become useless.

So why isnt the same true with life.

Well, that wasn't his argument about gold. He was saying gold is valuable because it doesn't last forever, when that's not why gold is valuable. Gold is valuable because it's rare, not because it doesn't last forever. If that were the case then wood would be even more valuable than gold because wood lasts for an even shorter time.

As humans, we are finite, or limited, beings. There are things that are not in our power to do. We value life because it doesn't last forever. There is a day when we will die, so life is to be valued and as such, we value other living humans. But we also value them because they are made in the image of God. This is why Christians should oppose moral injustice (many don't, but the ones who don't do not live as if the ones being oppressed are as valuable as they are).
KeytarHero
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4/11/2012 9:38:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 3:34:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 2:01:14 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite. "Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as valuable as it is now.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God. Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.

Thats kinda the point though.

The reason why Gold is valuable is because it is limited in quantity.

The reason life is valuable is because it is limited in timespan.

If an influx of Gold from the moon became available to humans, its value would go down. The more Gold that becomes availeable, the less its value would be. Let alone an infinite source of Gold, and it would become useless.

So why isnt the same true with life.

Exactly, "weight in gold" is the "time span of life" in the analogy...If "life" was a market, then it would be flooded infinitely in the theistic world view.

If person A has a bag of gold, and that's all they have, they are going to value it and spend it wiser than Person B who has a bag of gold, but an infinite amount of gold waiting for him after this Person B spends it. Why would person B care about wasting money? Why would he care about losing any of it? He wouldn't, he has an infinite amount of gold waiting for him after he spends his bag. Another example would be a faithful relationship, lets say you dated a girl and somehow knew that no matter what happened she would never leave you and continue to be a faithful girlfriend...Would you care about flirting with other girls as much? Treating your Gf bad as much? She's not going to leave you anyway, you are together forever...If you know that something will never leave you and will be with you forever, you aren't going to value it as much, it's a logical argument I'm making despite what Theists want to believe.

I see no logic in placing value in life if it just lasts forever after death anyway, it completely takes away the value of human life.

To be honest I don't even know why Theists want to live on Earth, if Heaven is a better place and you have to die to get there, then what's the point of living on earth? Don't you want to spend eternity with Jesus and God in the divine kingdom? If a Theist gets a disease that could kill them, there is no logic in them going to the doctor to try and get it reversed. They should be jumping up for joy that they get to go to heaven, and their family members should all be envious that he gets to go and they don't. You never see that of course because I believe the Theist doesn't actually believe in the afterlife deep down, it's just an idea they believe on the surface that helps them cope with this life and helps dealing with the death of loved ones (I have no evidence to back up that claim and I could be wrong, it's just a personal hunch).

The problem is you just have a hard time seeing things from another perspective.

It's not a very logical argument that you're making. As humans, we are not going to last forever. We *will* die one day. As such, our lives on Earth are to be valued. We don't know when we're going to die, we just know that we are. We don't have an "infinite amount of gold" waiting for us. There will be a day when we will die, so our lives on Earth should be valued.

Again, I see no logic in your reasoning about Christians and the afterlife. No Christian embraces death. We were never supposed to die in the first place. It's because of sin that we die, so it's not something to look forward to. We can have hope in Heaven after we die, so death is not something that we have to fear. But it's an unpleasant, and for some of us scary, thing we have to go through to get there. I'm not looking forward to it.

Your assertion that deep down we don't believe in Heaven is faulty. Of course we believe there's a Heaven deep down. That doesn't mean we should embrace death with open arms. If someone prepared a seven-course meal for you, you would be looking forward to that. But if someone said you had to walk barefoot over ten feet of hot coals to get the seven-course meal, that's a different matter entirely. You wouldn't look forward to walking over the hot coals, or even want to do it, but you'd have to if you wanted the meal. (Now, of course death can't be avoided.) Heaven is the reward we can have hope in that death isn't the end of our existence. Personally, that's much more appealing to me than believing that we cease to exist after we die.
KeytarHero
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4/11/2012 9:55:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 5:43:18 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/10/2012 5:00:35 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Well think about it: you are judged for ETERNITY based on your actions in life (85 years if you're lucky.) So let's do the math: 85 / oo = 0; so for nothing (ie 0) you will either suffer for eternity or be happy for eternity. How could you not value life?

Let me address this, because i am sick and tired of people making this argument.

What part of christianity tells you that you cannot enter heaven based on your actions in your life? It is universally agreed upon by most christians, that it doesnt matter how good you are, how nice, how much you donate, how much charity work you do, how much you help around the house, all of this is irrelevant to whether you get into heaven.

The only thing that matters, to most christians who agree that it is through faith and not works that we are saved, is that you believe in Jesus and God. Does it matter if you were a rapist, a murderer, a greedy corporate thug? Does it matter if youve raped and killed 10, 100, 1000 young girls? According to the christian Doctrine, no, because any sin is forgiveable.

Dont you dare come to me and say that I am to be judged for an eternity based on the actions of my life. All that matters is one action, one belief. All others are irrelevant.

Furthermore, you have it wrong. No christian who labels themselves christian, atleast that ive ever seen or met, believes they are going to hell. Therefore this eternal punishment thing is a non-issue with them, because its not an option.


So you are saying that only theists would have a desire to live forever? I think you know better than that. Besides, how can theists that have not yet experienced an eternal afterlife make judgments about its worth?

I dont think you understand just how long an eternity is.

Have you ever watched the TV show Star Trek Voyager? Theres an episode there called "Death Wish", where an omnipotent, all power being called Q, wants to end his life, because he has seen everything, experienced everything, and immortality has become unbearable.

On the surface, sure, Id like to live forever. Much like, if i didnt give it much thought, id love to have a bag that keeps pumping out money, for eternity. But when i consider it in practical terms, then no. If i had a bag that would do such a thing, the economy would collapse. It would be the same as inflation, when a country prints too much money and even a thousand dollars wouldnt be enough to buy a candy bar.

I suppose if God gives me a lobptomy and i became a mumbling idiot whose only emotion is happiness, who could be entertained by a sheet of paper for hours on end, i would appreciate eternity. However, when i think about it from a practical point of view, no, eternity would get boring, fast.

Also, yes, we can make a judgement call about eternal afterlife, because we understand the concept. Ive never experienced owning a castle, but i can still determine and understand its worth.

Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The Bible states that we don't get in to Heaven by our good works. We do get judged by our good works because as Christians, we are to live in peace and do good to others. But ideally, that's not why a Christian does good. I certainly don't do good things to get rewarded for it, even though I know that one day I will.

But yes, if you are not a believer, then that is irrelevant. If someone is trying to get to Heaven based on their good works (the Bible calls this living by the law), then you will be judged by the law and come up short, deserving of Hell because you're a sinner. Let's be clear, everyone is a sinner, including me, including the person you're responding to, everyone. It's not "believing in Christ" that saves you, per se. It's the fact that if you believe in Christ and ask Him to forgive your sins, you will be forgiven and your sins forgotten, and it will be as if you have never sinned. That's why we need to be forgiven of our sins, because Heaven is a perfect place and God could not allow any sin there. No one is perfect; no one can live a life worthy of going to Heaven.

This is why we are living by grace, not by the law. If you live by the law and try to get in on your good works, you will be judged by the law and come up short because you can't keep the law perfectly. If you are living by God's grace, then you will be judged accordingly and be found perfect because of God's forgiveness.

Also, what we want, as far as living forever, is irrelevant. If Christianity is true, then everyone will live forever (either in Heaven or in Hell). It's not untrue simply because you want it to be so.

I am also very familiar with Star Trek: Voyager (I'm a hardcore Trekkie). No Q had ever committed suicide before. Quinn was one Q out of an unknown amount of Q. So obviously the vast majority of Q were quite happy with their existence. The dissent of one Q didn't suddenly make other Q want to kill themselves, as well.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/11/2012 10:41:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"The problem is you just have a hard time seeing things from another perspective.

It's not a very logical argument that you're making."


It's very logical, I think it's you who has a hard time seeing things from my perspective.

"It's not a very logical argument that you're making. As humans, we are not going to last forever. We *will* die one day. As such, our lives on Earth are to be valued. We don't know when we're going to die, we just know that we are. We don't have an "infinite amount of gold" waiting for us. There will be a day when we will die, so our lives on Earth should be valued."

The Bag of Gold = Human life
The infinite amount of Gold waiting after the Bag of Gold is spent = Afterlife

If you don't believe in the infinite amount of gold in the analogy, that means you don't believe in the afterlife.

"Again, I see no logic in your reasoning about Christians and the afterlife."

I see no logic in your rebuttals, it's like your trying to deny common sense. If I believe I have a bag of golf, but another person believes he has a bag of gold plus an infinite amount of gold waiting after his bag is spent, the one who believed he just has the bag of gold will spend it wiser. What logic do you not see in this?

"No Christian embraces death. We were never supposed to die in the first place. It's because of sin that we die"

No it's because biological functions wear down after a while that we die, you shouldn't care anyway, you get to go to a better place. You have no logical reason to look both ways when you cross the street, why do you care if you get hit by a car? You get to go to heaven...

"We can have hope in Heaven after we die, so death is not something that we have to fear. But it's an unpleasant, and for some of us scary, thing we have to go through to get there. I'm not looking forward to it."

"We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven's incomparable joy." - William Lane Craig

Basically you make no sense, if heaven is better than earth, you have no reason not to look forward to death.

"Your assertion that deep down we don't believe in Heaven is faulty"

Maybe you missed the part where I said I could be wrong...Your lack of reading was probably the cause of your incoherent response.

"If someone prepared a seven-course meal for you, you would be looking forward to that. But if someone said you had to walk barefoot over ten feet of hot coals to get the seven-course meal, that's a different matter entirely"

Death is quick by decapitation, you wouldn't have enough time to feel anything significant. Same as if I shot you point blank in the temple. You have no logical reason to not want a decapitation right now if you believe in heaven.
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/11/2012 10:46:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 9:38:56 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/10/2012 3:34:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 2:01:14 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:02:16 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:12:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Would a pile of gold that lasted forever be valuable? No, gold is only valuable because of how finite it is. How to Theists justify valuing life if they believe it lasts forever even after death? What's the point of caring, if life lasts forever anyway? It doesn't matter what you do, you will live in the Theistic world view one way or another...Life cannot be valued this way, something can only be is valuable because it is finite not because it is infinite.

My question is, how can theists justify placing value on something that lasts forever? It makes no sense.

The problem is you have a faulty definition of finite. "Finite" doesn't mean it doesn't last forever. Finite means limited. We are limited beings and God is infinite (unlimited). Gold is valuable because it is rare. If it lasted forever, it would be just as valuable as it is now.

Theists value life because we are all made in the image of God. Even though our mortal bodies will one day perish, our eternal soul will live on. We are valuable because we are God's creation and God values us.

Thats kinda the point though.

The reason why Gold is valuable is because it is limited in quantity.

The reason life is valuable is because it is limited in timespan.

If an influx of Gold from the moon became available to humans, its value would go down. The more Gold that becomes availeable, the less its value would be. Let alone an infinite source of Gold, and it would become useless.

So why isnt the same true with life.

Exactly, "weight in gold" is the "time span of life" in the analogy...If "life" was a market, then it would be flooded infinitely in the theistic world view.

If person A has a bag of gold, and that's all they have, they are going to value it and spend it wiser than Person B who has a bag of gold, but an infinite amount of gold waiting for him after this Person B spends it. Why would person B care about wasting money? Why would he care about losing any of it? He wouldn't, he has an infinite amount of gold waiting for him after he spends his bag. Another example would be a faithful relationship, lets say you dated a girl and somehow knew that no matter what happened she would never leave you and continue to be a faithful girlfriend...Would you care about flirting with other girls as much? Treating your Gf bad as much? She's not going to leave you anyway, you are together forever...If you know that something will never leave you and will be with you forever, you aren't going to value it as much, it's a logical argument I'm making despite what Theists want to believe.

I see no logic in placing value in life if it just lasts forever after death anyway, it completely takes away the value of human life.

To be honest I don't even know why Theists want to live on Earth, if Heaven is a better place and you have to die to get there, then what's the point of living on earth? Don't you want to spend eternity with Jesus and God in the divine kingdom? If a Theist gets a disease that could kill them, there is no logic in them going to the doctor to try and get it reversed. They should be jumping up for joy that they get to go to heaven, and their family members should all be envious that he gets to go and they don't. You never see that of course because I believe the Theist doesn't actually believe in the afterlife deep down, it's just an idea they believe on the surface that helps them cope with this life and helps dealing with the death of loved ones (I have no evidence to back up that claim and I could be wrong, it's just a personal hunch).

The problem is you just have a hard time seeing things from another perspective.

It's not a very logical argument that you're making. As humans, we are not going to last forever. We *will* die one day. As such, our lives on Earth are to be valued. We don't know when we're going to die, we just know that we are. We don't have an "infinite amount of gold" waiting for us. There will be a day when we will die, so our lives on Earth should be valued.

Again, I see no logic in your reasoning about Christians and the afterlife. No Christian embraces death. We were never supposed to die in the first place. It's because of sin that we die, so it's not something to look forward to. We can have hope in Heaven after we die, so death is not something that we have to fear. But it's an unpleasant, and for some of us scary, thing we have to go through to get there. I'm not looking forward to it.

Your assertion that deep down we don't believe in Heaven is faulty. Of course we believe there's a Heaven deep down. That doesn't mean we should embrace death with open arms. If someone prepared a seven-course meal for you, you would be looking forward to that. But if someone said you had to walk barefoot over ten feet of hot coals to get the seven-course meal, that's a different matter entirely. You wouldn't look forward to walking over the hot coals, or even want to do it, but you'd have to if you wanted the meal. (Now, of course death can't be avoided.) Heaven is the reward we can have hope in that death isn't the end of our existence. Personally, that's much more appealing to me than believing that we cease to exist after we die.

Also your analogy was flawed because the prize wasn't worth the price. With heaven and death, the few seconds of pain are easily worth the eternal bliss without question. You should not fear death if you believe in heaven, who cares about the pain if the bliss is eternal? You still have no logical reason to not embrace your human death as a Christian.
tkubok
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4/11/2012 11:13:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 9:55:07 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
Ephesians 2:8-9: For it is by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The Bible states that we don't get in to Heaven by our good works. We do get judged by our good works because as Christians, we are to live in peace and do good to others. But ideally, that's not why a Christian does good. I certainly don't do good things to get rewarded for it, even though I know that one day I will.

But yes, if you are not a believer, then that is irrelevant. If someone is trying to get to Heaven based on their good works (the Bible calls this living by the law), then you will be judged by the law and come up short, deserving of Hell because you're a sinner. Let's be clear, everyone is a sinner, including me, including the person you're responding to, everyone. It's not "believing in Christ" that saves you, per se. It's the fact that if you believe in Christ and ask Him to forgive your sins, you will be forgiven and your sins forgotten, and it will be as if you have never sinned. That's why we need to be forgiven of our sins, because Heaven is a perfect place and God could not allow any sin there. No one is perfect; no one can live a life worthy of going to Heaven.

So in essence i was right. Whether you get into heaven is not contingent upon anything within your life, but rather whether youve accepted and asked forgiveness from jesus.

Can i ask you, where is the justice in that? If your daughter was raped and killed, and the rapist who is let off due to faulty evidence, accepts Jesus and asks his sins to be forgiven on his deathbed at the age of 90 and you die and see the rapist in heaven, where is the justice?

This is why we are living by grace, not by the law. If you live by the law and try to get in on your good works, you will be judged by the law and come up short because you can't keep the law perfectly. If you are living by God's grace, then you will be judged accordingly and be found perfect because of God's forgiveness.
Let me ask you this.

Does God ever retract his offer of apology?
Also, what we want, as far as living forever, is irrelevant. If Christianity is true, then everyone will live forever (either in Heaven or in Hell). It's not untrue simply because you want it to be so.

Well, actually, not really no. Billy Graham for example believes that hell isnt eternal torment, its simply annihalation.

However, this comment is irrelevant, since i never once clamed in my comment you are replying to that we are assuming Christianity to be false. Instead, for the sake of discussion, we all assumed that Christianity was true, and asked Christians a question based on that assumption.

I am also very familiar with Star Trek: Voyager (I'm a hardcore Trekkie). No Q had ever committed suicide before. Quinn was one Q out of an unknown amount of Q. So obviously the vast majority of Q were quite happy with their existence. The dissent of one Q didn't suddenly make other Q want to kill themselves, as well.

Didnt you see what happened after? The resulting Q civil war, where many Q died? The Q played by John de Lancie, drags Janeway back into the continuum because, according to him, she is responsible, and tells her that he warned her what would happen if they let a Q suicide. A schism occurred, and clearly many of the Q were not happy with their existance and wanted individual freedom, and what it took for them to realize this was the death of Quinn/Q.