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The irony of DATCMOTO

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/19/2009 7:13:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Honestly, I have no idea why you all care so much about DATCMOTO. This is the first time I have ever acknowledged him and it's only because I noticed yet another forum topic dedicated to his existence (So much for ignoring the troll...). If he wants to troll away in the Religion forums, let him -- Nobody takes him seriously anyway, and if certain people get annoyed/upset, then that's their problem. People say things that annoy me in the forums all the time. For instance, I find Kleptin's adamant anti-DATCMOTO propaganda via instructions to ignore all of his posts very annoying.

1) We all reserve the right to ignore DATCMOTO and/or debate him and his views via the forum or otherwise. Maybe some people don't WANT to ignore DATCMOTO; Maybe instead some people want to keep trying to point out the error of his ways the same way DATCMOTO keeps trying to do that to everyone else. Moreover, maybe some people LIKE getting riled up and exchanging pointless back and forth banter with DATCMOTO. Who knows. Who cares.

The point is that nobody should be trying to boss people around or make them feel like a tool if they feel like arguing with DAT every now and again. People shouldn't have to apologize for engaging him every now and again. Sure we know it's pointless the same way we know that getting Ragnar to convert to overt economic liberalism is pointless. Still, it just might make for an interesting or at least entertaining discussion...

And if you plan on responding with, "Well Ragnar is a lot more articulate and logical than DAT," don't bother. If DATCMOTO actually believes that the Bible is legitimate and that "God's word" is automatically superior to any of ours (which he seemingly does), then in his eyes he is being entirely logical, as God's laws override human ones in terms of logic, etc. In other words, it's probably a lost cause, but we can still have fun with it if we want to. Whoever doesn't like it, tough.

2) Kleptin instructing people to ignore DATCMOTO incessantly via e-mails and forum signatures is hypocritical not to mention hilarious. I mean he's posted a whole instructional on how to deal with trolls (namely one in particular) - lol. The first says, "Trolls thrive by giving useless responses." I think trolls thrive by having entire signatures and e-mail threads dedicated to them! In essence you're saying that the troll(s) thrive off attention so not to give it to him, but then constantly dictate a plethora of responses and orders on how to deal with him... hmm. What's wrong with this picture. Note also the entire counter-account to DAT a.k.a. MRSDATCMOTO that was not only another attention feeder but also got a DDO Regular banned for a short amount of time. Ugh.

The second and third rules state, "In order to give useless responses, the troll must be fed a reply; The only way to starve and defeat a troll is to ignore it" That's simply not true. A troll can respond to ANY reply whether it was directed at them or not. In other words, there is NO way to deal with a troll. You can hope that by directly ignoring them they will go away, but essentially they can and will always be a presence and there's nothing you can do about it but hope they get bored of posting. Proof of this is to take Kleptin's advice and never respond to DATCMOTO. I guarantee you that he will still post his useless tirades in regard to any religious forum topic... and again, so what? See #1.

Finally the 4th piece of advice offered by Kleptin is to never let the troll end a forum topic. As you can see, DATCMOTO continues to have the last post in over 90% of the forum topics at hand. I personally think that this is a useless piece of advice; in fact, allowing DATCMOTO to have the last post of a topic is probably the ONLY way to stop him. Obviously if people keep posting, he too will keep posting until he has the last word. And so it goes.

In conclusion, I don't really care if this post alone feeds into DAT's egoism - lol - we're talking about a fundamentalist middle-aged man who gets off by annoying people on a debate website... uh, that's cool. I'm just merely trying to point out that all of the attempts made at shutting him up are actually only making it worse; I can say there here because this post is about the ironic attempts that people have made at shutting him up, not wanting to shut him up itself. In fact, I implore you all to continue talking about DAT some more (including you, DAT). In fact let me take this opportunity to say DATCMOTO DATCMOTO DATCMOTO! Whew. I feel liberated.
President of DDO
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/19/2009 7:47:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Hi Lwerd. Couple things.

One, you're contradicting yourself when you say that we should allow DATC to have the last post in every thread as the "only" means of making him stop. This is in direct contradiction to what I think was the overall meaning in your argument - that we shouldn't care about him, just keep doing what you want to, even if it means engaging with him, etc. It isn't a big point, but it is kind of a sore one.

If I'm wrong about that overall meaning, then I apologize for saying you're contradicting yourself.

Secondly, you shouldn't criticize Kleptin for doing what someone has to do. It might seem hypocritical to you, but the fact of the matter is that in the overall point he tries to make, he is right. We need to have DATC gone - and this is farther than just "trolling."

He harasses and insults members, spams topics that are outside of the religion forum, and doesn't even defend his views when presented in debate. His purpose on this website is not to argue for the existence of God, or even to convert people, despite what he says. He just wants to get his rocks off by getting to us.

Remember, this isn't someone like GodSands, that while he talks a lot about God and doesn't make much sense, he does it because he wants to engage people and teach them. DATC doesn't do that. DATC just wants to harass us. There is a big, big difference.

While I agree that people are free to engage him if he wants, and the fact that he does anger people, myself included, with his postings is just our problem, there needs to be an initiative to get rid of someone with the sole intent in mind to harass and annoy us. God knows that the site administrators have yet to do it.

That's all.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/19/2009 8:50:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Hi Volkov.

1) You're right - I didn't mean that allowing DAT to post last was the "only" way to make him stop. I just meant that saying he shouldn't post last is kind of a moot point. Number one he seems to always be the last person posting anyway (presumably because he is the only one with any interest in doing so). Number two it's almost like challenging people to post last, which in turn only presents a counter challenge to DAT to be a d1ck and post last. So, the point still stands: just do what you want. If you feel like posting last, go ahead. If not, don't think it's helping DATs cause.

2) I didn't criticize Kleptin. I simply pointed out the irony in his attempts at stifling DAT. I know that in a community such as DDO, it's easy to get defensive of a fellow Regular. Try to see the the bigger picture though. Additionally, I disagree that we need to have DAT gone. He's proven to be close-minded: So what? So are many others...

You say that he insults members? Do you realize how many times John is teasingly called a pedophile or how much I am insulted on here? Maybe you haven't been around for a lot of the older posts, but they exist. Douchey comments are sometimes overlooked because they're made by favorable Regulars, including myself.

Anyway, I agree with you that some of his comments are borderline harassment; however, there is a fine line between his posts and GodSands... hence presumable administrative negligence (lol yeah right). In other words, it might be difficult to accuse him of doing something explicitly wrong in most cases while still adhering to his "rights" as a member of this site (and you know what I mean by rights.)

And again, this thread isn't about whether DAT should be removed/ignored or what have you. It's just an amusing way to look at how ironic some of our attempts at stifling DAT have been, and me positing that mayhaps we should stop trying... or something.
President of DDO
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/19/2009 9:04:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 8:50:29 AM, theLwerd wrote:
2) I didn't criticize Kleptin. I simply pointed out the irony in his attempts at stifling DAT. I know that in a community such as DDO, it's easy to get defensive of a fellow Regular. Try to see the the bigger picture though. Additionally, I disagree that we need to have DAT gone. He's proven to be close-minded: So what? So are many others...

It's not so much that I'm defending Kleptin, as it is I'm defending the actions he is trying to take. As a person that believes active community involvement can help solve inumberable problems, I support the measures Kleptin is promoting. You are right though - it is fairly ironic.

You say that he insults members? Do you realize how many times John is teasingly called a pedophile or how much I am insulted on here? Maybe you haven't been around for a lot of the older posts, but they exist. Douchey comments are sometimes overlooked because they're made by favorable Regulars, including myself.

I saw DebateChan, so I know what you're talking about. But, the difference is that DATC is the kind of person that does it in such a way that doesn't completely offend the other party, but creates much ennui, yet you know by addressing it you're just furthering his goals.

It is kind of like a subtle form of insult, rather than the blatant negativity directed to you, John and others sometimes, which is easily addressed as the stupidity it is.

That being said, maybe regulars shouldn't be treated specially. What I have noticed though is that while Panda pulls off that Mrs. Datcmoto stunt, he is banned almost right away - DATC harasses a member (I believe AFT, maybe not though) about his grandfather, and not a hand is laid upon him. Now it may be that the person didn't object to it, but still, that kind of thing shouldn't be tolerated - it only encourages it toward someone that does object.

And again, this thread isn't about whether DAT should be removed/ignored or what have you. It's just an amusing way to look at how ironic some of our attempts at stifling DAT have been, and me positing that mayhaps we should stop trying... or something.

I understand, but I feel promoting the community effort to stop DATC is worth it.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/19/2009 9:28:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You make some good points (about how different members actions are treated differently; for instance, the same or similar offense warrants punishment for one entity but not another). I have a forum topic called Debate Removal in the DDO section that addressed this very issue. I asked specifically for feedback from any admin, though not surprisingly I haven't received any.

Anyway, DebateChan aside, people make "off" comments all the time (I'm not entirely innocent) -- I have reported some explicitly offensive things said to me and yet the user's account remains active (though he hasn't been online for days). Like you said, though, Panda slips up with something remotely minor and gets banned. Then he had to publicly apologize. Wtf? He was made an example of and this type of treatment isn't extended to everybody, i.e. DAT. I agree with you that some of his behavior warrants suspension or removal; however, I also see how doing so would just encourage him to step on even more toes (re: Askbob).

I'm glad you see the point I was trying to make though in the sense that people seem to keep saying IGNORE DATCMOTO, IGNORE DATCMOTO but in doing so is not ignoring him at all.
President of DDO
Rob1Billion
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7/19/2009 10:05:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
HAHA. I think DATCMOTO is an integral part of DDO, as much as any other member. He brings a point of view to DDO that is necessary for the synthesis of our discussions. Why shouldn't the Bible have a spokesperson on DDO? He may evade points at times, but he is actually really good at defending scripture. I think he did an excellent job defending it against Tarzan in that one debate (although I didn't really read the whole thing)... I think it was called "the bible is an inconsistent document II"... He also was able to somehow make a good point that the fact that there was other Jesus-like characters before jesus somehow reinforces and strengthens the fact that Jesus is actually the true son of God that the Bible speaks of. Sorry I don't have time to properly cite all the sources I am describing here, but my point is that he has made an impression on me and I am not easy to make an impression on, ESPECIALLY by someone trying to defend the Bible! He does evade points, but if you are a good debater then you will make him stay on track. The true irony here is that you all are completely idolizing him with these discussions...
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/19/2009 10:25:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I agree with Rob1Billion entirely. DATs seemingly non-sensical posts are sometimes no different than the ridiculously Conservative or ridiculously Liberal posts that I read on here which seem just as non-sensical to me. DATs particularly aggressive about his views, however, which is why I also agree with Volkov in the sense that DATs behavior can sometimes borderline "harassment." I personally think it's hard to defend though and thus stand behind my original post : )
President of DDO
Alex
Posts: 2,058
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7/19/2009 6:26:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I've seen many posts by Volkov which just by perusing them suggests to me that he actually has no knowledge on the topic except his atheist bios that he hears from his friends.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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7/19/2009 7:05:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 6:26:01 PM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
I've seen many posts by Volkov which just by perusing them suggests to me that he actually has no knowledge on the topic except his atheist bios that he hears from his friends.

Are you talking about my knowledge of religion and theology?

I try, but by no means am I an expert. This doesn't mean I am completely ignorant, either.

If you're talking about DATC, I do admit that I slip here and there, though I try not to directly address the contentions he says about religion and etc.

If its neither, then I would ask you to elaborate on what you mean.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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7/19/2009 8:21:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Lwerd is right about some things. I was actually thinking about this before, and it might be time to give the instructions an overhaul.

@Lwerd

I myself have been retracting a lot from this issue, so this response of yours is untimely and long overdue, but I'm glad you find it a relief to get it off your chest. I myself would have found this type of feedback more useful if it were given say...a month ago? But it seems highly irrelevant now.

To be fair though:

We are all aware of the ironic nature of dealing with trolls, so a long-winded contribution of your two pennies, Lwerd, is appreciated but impractical. Your participation in the forum is minimal and although you may see spots of things and pass your judgement based on those snapshots, you lack the ability to make an informed judgement because you don't see the progression.

Thus, while a lot of what you say rings true, there are a few core components that you completely miss out on, which is why it is understandable that you would view my responses to this infestation in such a negative light.

1. I've basically lost hope that DATCMOTO will leave on his own, for the very reasons that you stated. I am now hoping that in his desperation for attention, he will eventually perform acts that can be reported.

2. The Religion forum is comprised of approximately 5 topics a day at best, and essentially exists only when DATCMOTO is not killing the discussion. Most if not all topics end with DATCMOTO getting into a lengthy and useless conversation with someone else and it ends when the other party decides to stop paying attention to him. I'm just speeding up the process.

3. I'm not issuing commands, I'm not relaying orders. I'm just advocating what I believe to be the only way to get rid of DATCMOTO. If you have an alternate goal in mind, then you obviously disagree with my methods vehemently. However, it's kind of useless and impractical to harp on my proposed methodology if you have an alternate goal in mind.

I will be keeping my signature, Lwerd, and I will continue to make posts, and send messages. The signature takes up little to no bandwidth, my pleas to ignore DATCMOTO are made only in topics marked for death, and the messages (which are nowhere near as numerous as you suggest) can easily be ignored or blocked.

My conclusion? I think you should participate a little more and hang around the religion forum for a few weeks and understand the mechanics before you bang the gavel as harshly as you did. I'm pretty sure that if you do so in an immersive and legitimate manner , you'll take back everything you typed up there.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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7/19/2009 8:23:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Edit- And by "forum" I mean this particular forum. I see you post frequently elsewhere.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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7/19/2009 10:41:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I don't know...maybe it's just me, but I don't care about DATCMOTO at all. Yeah, I'm not about to argue with him, because I think it's futile, and I think he's a troll, as well, but...so what? I just don't get why anyone cares.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/20/2009 1:33:42 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nice to see Kleptin get a slapped around a little.. this thread SHOULD really be called:
"THE IRONY OF KLEPTINS FUTILE CAPAIGN AGAINST DATCMOTO"
Maybe it hasn't got quite the same ring to it..

Psalm118:6
The Lord is on MY SIDE;
I will NOT FEAR.
What can man do TO ME?
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/20/2009 3:39:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 10:05:51 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
HAHA. I think DATCMOTO is an integral part of DDO, as much as any other member. He brings a point of view to DDO that is necessary for the synthesis of our discussions. Why shouldn't the Bible have a spokesperson on DDO? He may evade points at times, but he is actually really good at defending scripture. I think he did an excellent job defending it against Tarzan in that one debate (although I didn't really read the whole thing)... I think it was called "the bible is an inconsistent document II"... He also was able to somehow make a good point that the fact that there was other Jesus-like characters before jesus somehow reinforces and strengthens the fact that Jesus is actually the true son of God that the Bible speaks of. Sorry I don't have time to properly cite all the sources I am describing here, but my point is that he has made an impression on me and I am not easy to make an impression on, ESPECIALLY by someone trying to defend the Bible! He does evade points, but if you are a good debater then you will make him stay on track. The true irony here is that you all are completely idolizing him with these discussions...

Thanks Rob. This is second positive review of I've had in a week, (Geolaureate was the other) THE TIDE IS TURNING!

Psalm105:4
Seek the Lord
and
His strength;
seek His face evermore!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/20/2009 7:59:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 1:33:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Nice to see Kleptin get a slapped around a little.. this thread SHOULD really be called:
"THE IRONY OF KLEPTINS FUTILE CAPAIGN AGAINST DATCMOTO"
Maybe it hasn't got quite the same ring to it..

Actually, you've got a point. Futile is just the right word.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/20/2009 8:17:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Kleptin:

First, my post wasn't supposed to directly insult or criticize you, so I'm sorry if it came off as such. The point I was trying to make is that our attempts at shutting DATCMOTO up are (1) futile - he is obviously not letting up, (2) hypocritical - as I explained that talking consistently about ignoring him is NOT actually ignoring him, and (3) maybe even wrong in the sense that he should be allowed to post his senseless beliefs, just as others are allowed to post their non-sensical beliefs everywhere else.

Second, just because I don't post a lot in the Religion forums does not mean that I am oblivious to DAT. Not only does he infiltrate other forum topics with his stupidity, but I *do* read mostly all the threads around here simply because there are so few of them that it's not exactly a hard thing to miss. Your assuming that I "don't know what goes on" is completely without basis.

I just choose not to post much because (1) I'm not particularly interested or engaged by most threads, (2) The reason for that is because most of the time it's spent with people fighting with DAT and I get bored with it. I'll bet if we were able to count how many posts you've made in this forum, most of them would be complaining about DAT and not just talking about the topics at hand.

Anyway I do, from time to time, say my peace. However I'm mostly too put off by all of the futile (excellent word in this case - I can't get over it - haha) attempts to shut him up. Newsflash: It's not gonna happen.

Third, an alternative "solution" (though I'm not really sure there is one, so I guess I mean suggestion) is to JUST. IGNORE. HIM. Like I said, all you can do is hope/wait for him to go away. Giving him so much attention, i.e. going on and on about how and why we should ignore him, is not ignoring him. You're essentially hurting your own cause.

I think people should continue to post topics and literally just ignore DAT if they feel so inclined. I'm not sure what you mean by learning the "mechanics" around here... I'm pretty sure I know how the forum works. And I know what goes on. If I find a topic that actually engages me, I'll post. If not, I won't. I'll just keep coming here to laugh at DAT (honestly, that is literally what I come here to do. Haha.).
President of DDO
DATCMOTO
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7/20/2009 8:25:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 7:59:15 AM, theLwerd wrote:
At 7/20/2009 1:33:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Nice to see Kleptin get a slapped around a little.. this thread SHOULD really be called:
"THE IRONY OF KLEPTINS FUTILE CAPAIGN AGAINST DATCMOTO"
Maybe it hasn't got quite the same ring to it..

Actually, you've got a point. Futile is just the right word.

Though 'CAPAIGN' is sadly not: CAMPAIGN. (obviously)

2Corinthians10:5
Casting
D
O
W
N
arguments
&
every
HIGH
thing
that
exalts
ITSELF
against
the knowledge of God,
bringing every thought
into
CAP
TIV
ITY
to the
obedience of
CHRIST.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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7/20/2009 7:25:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
@Lwerd

I was actually referring to the ebb and flow of DATCMOTO's activity in terms of being ignored. For someone who comes periodically, they only see his activity. For someone who comes here on a more frequent basis, it is very noticeable that DATCMOTO's activity is greatly hindered when he is ignored and boosts up enormously when he latches onto one person to volley with. Usually, that person is a new participant and it helps to make all newcomers aware before they initiate a flare-up in activity.

If you spent more time on this particular forum, you would be able to see these patterns like I do, and understand that the main problem would be new people being lured into lengthy arguments. One post to warn about DATCMOTO, one inevitable post by DATCMOTO in return whining about my tactic, and one response by the newcomer is a great alternative to a 5 page exchange that leads to nothing but spam and frustration on everyone's part.

To ignore DATCMOTO alone is not enough, because every newcomer will undoubtedly see his name plastered all over and given his inane garbage, I doubt any debater worth his weight in salt would give up the chance to slay a giant, only to realize after feeding the troll a giant feast, that the giant was but a windmill all along.

I'm just trying to nip things in the bud. I'm well aware of the irony, but that alone does not make the endeavor futile. Surgeons cut into their patients in order to heal them, this act alone is ironic. The issue is whether my actions do more harm than good. If you honestly think so, then you have a justified position. I personally think they do not.

I don't want to drag this out much more, as I can tell that you're just throwing in your two cents (your input is definitely appreciated) and that you don't *really* care about this issue. However your decision to post this topic has undoubtedly given DATCMOTO a substantial amount of hope and morale since he interprets any sign of discord as a signal from God to keep on spamming. He'll even reinterpret a backhanded compliment to fuel himself.

If we can both agree that talking to DATCMOTO is futile, and that ignoring him is the best course of action, I will be willing to tone down my "ironic" efforts to silence him. I'd also like to have you around more to stimulate the dying Religion forum, as you've given a breath of fresh air since you arrived. What do you think?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
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7/22/2009 7:46:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 7:25:38 PM, Kleptin wrote:
@Lwerd

I was actually referring to the ebb and flow of DATCMOTO's activity in terms of being ignored. For someone who comes periodically, they only see his activity. For someone who comes here on a more frequent basis, it is very noticeable that DATCMOTO's activity is greatly hindered when he is ignored and boosts up enormously when he latches onto one person to volley with. Usually, that person is a new participant and it helps to make all newcomers aware before they initiate a flare-up in activity.

If you spent more time on this particular forum, you would be able to see these patterns like I do, and understand that the main problem would be new people being lured into lengthy arguments. One post to warn about DATCMOTO, one inevitable post by DATCMOTO in return whining about my tactic, and one response by the newcomer is a great alternative to a 5 page exchange that leads to nothing but spam and frustration on everyone's part.

To ignore DATCMOTO alone is not enough, because every newcomer will undoubtedly see his name plastered all over and given his inane garbage, I doubt any debater worth his weight in salt would give up the chance to slay a giant, only to realize after feeding the troll a giant feast, that the giant was but a windmill all along.

I'm just trying to nip things in the bud. I'm well aware of the irony, but that alone does not make the endeavor futile. Surgeons cut into their patients in order to heal them, this act alone is ironic. The issue is whether my actions do more harm than good. If you honestly think so, then you have a justified position. I personally think they do not.

I don't want to drag this out much more, as I can tell that you're just throwing in your two cents (your input is definitely appreciated) and that you don't *really* care about this issue. However your decision to post this topic has undoubtedly given DATCMOTO a substantial amount of hope and morale since he interprets any sign of discord as a signal from God to keep on spamming. He'll even reinterpret a backhanded compliment to fuel himself.

If we can both agree that talking to DATCMOTO is futile, and that ignoring him is the best course of action, I will be willing to tone down my "ironic" efforts to silence him. I'd also like to have you around more to stimulate the dying Religion forum, as you've given a breath of fresh air since you arrived. What do you think?

This is how the entire WORLD works: "The corporate rush to devour the NEW"

Everyone, being temporal and finite, (nonA) sooner or later runs down.. (spaghettimonster, JCMT, Kleptin etc etc) SO we must have FRESH blood continually to inject impetus into the forum: Hence the little burst of 'life' when Lwerd entered the fray.

I have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ (A) in me and so will not run down.

Matthew10:34
Do
N
O
T
think
I
came
t
o
bring
P
E
A
C
E
.
I
came
N
O
T
to bring peace
B
U
T
A SWORD.
The Cross.. the Cross.