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Which Is More Arrogant, Theism Or Atheism?

jat93
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4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Arrogance Of Theism Vs. That Of Atheism: Turning The Conventional Wisdom On Its Head

I hear frequently about the arrogance and presumptuousness of atheism/atheists from friends, rabbis, and teachers alike. After all, it is suggested, the vast majority of human beings throughout history have believed in some kind of God. Who are atheists to assert that they know better than the vast majority of mankind? This is, in all honesty, a childishly silly argument that irks me to no end, and not just because it is so blatantly wrong, but because the truth is precisely the other way around.

In the first place, proponents of the arrogance of atheism for the reason that most of mankind has believed in at least one God make a fatal flaw in their logic – they don't factor in the arrogance that they possess by their own argument. By this I mean to say that we are all atheists in regards to Zeus and Jupiter and Osiris and Ba'al. Think about that for a moment. The famous journalist H.L. Mencken once drew up a list of very nearly 10,000 Gods that used to be worshiped and aren't today. Writes Mencken in his short funeral oration to the gods of men past, entitled Memorial Service:

"You may think I spoof. That I invent the names. I do not… They were gods of the highest standing and dignity – gods of civilized peoples – worshiped and believed in by millions. All were theoretically omnipotent, omniscient, and immoral. And all are dead."

Why is it only atheists who are perceived as arrogant for rejecting god(s), when theists are also atheists when it comes to the thousands and thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout history? And why is it that they reject those gods in the first place? Perhaps when theists understand why they don't worship any of those thousands of now extinct but once revered gods, they'll understand why atheists say to just be more consistent and reject one more. Say theists reject 10,000 gods. All atheists do is reject 10,001. I can't stress this enough: we are all atheists in respect to the gods worshiped throughout most of mans history that only full fledged atheists are seen as arrogant for rejecting.

And now, to the crux of my argument. Is it not far more arrogant for a theist to believe something along the lines of "there is an omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe. I personally know this creator's most important thoughts and feelings. He cares about me like a son, listens to all my prayers, and watches me throughout every second of my life. Further, he loves my people 1000x more than he loves any other peoples – because I belong to his chosen ones."

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception. And the answer to everything is ultimately this – God did it. My God, who loves me and cares about my problems and hears my prayers. If this is not arrogance, I don't quite know what is. Certainly it is significantly less arrogant for atheists to suggest that the universe is basically indifferent to our needs, and that we are really just another species of animals, more intelligent than the others though we may be.

According to the faithful, the most crucial developments in the history of mankind were developed thousands of years ago when their holy books were revealed; the theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin (which many theists ignorantly reject and the other ones pathetically try to squeeze into an ancient, primitive creation narrative that no religion had a problem taking literally for hundreds and hundreds of years), Einstein's theory of relativity, Freud's advancements in psychology, Franklin's groundbreaking research into electricity… This all pales in comparison to their ancient and primitive texts which contradict science, history, morality, and common sense left and right. Even a cure for cancer wouldn't come close.

Why? Because the Bible is God's word, and that's all there is to it. Quite simply, religious people already have all the answers. All the important ones, anyway. Is this not the height of arrogance, as opposed to the atheist who is perfectly content saying "maybe we just don't know yet"? Is it not sheer chutzpah to suggest that you know the innermost thoughts and feelings of the omnipotent, omniscient creator of all that exists – and who knows yours too, because he cares so darn much about every single one of them? Does it not reek of self-importance to believe with every essence of your being that this deity – supposedly the father of all mankind – loves you and those who have been born into your faith considerably more than he cares about anyone else…. If he cares about them at all?

Not incidentally, up until very, very recently, almost all theists believed as a rule that God simply doesn't care about those people not fortunate enough to be born into the "right" faith; this ever just and merciful God sends them to burn in hell as eternal punishment. Or at the very least, according to the kinder theists, they will never reap the rewards that the lucky chosen ones will after death, when all the real fun begins.

Belief systems such as these are not just the epitome of arrogance. They are evil, they are pernicious, and what's more, there's not a shred of solid evidence to lend them credence. And it is my belief, based on everything I have put forth here and much, much more, that we should be overwhelmingly glad about this lack of evidence. We should thank goodness that the arrogance of theism reflects at most a deep psychological yearning for an all powerful father and a way to evade death – not the actual conditions of our universe as a whole, which are far more beautiful and complex and mysterious than anything a holy book could ever offer.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/9/2012 10:41:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
well said. http://boourns.cjb.net...
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
popculturepooka
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4/9/2012 10:48:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When people say "atheists are arrogant" I think they have in mind the gnu atheist types. Similarly, I don't see how your criticisms apply to all theists. Some theists I know are the most humble people I've ever had the good fortune to meet.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/9/2012 10:54:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:48:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
When people say "atheists are arrogant" I think they have in mind the gnu atheist types. Similarly, I don't see how your criticisms apply to all theists. Some theists I know are the most humble people I've ever had the good fortune to meet.

I think he was criticizing the assumptions made through theism as arrogant, not theists personally. By the way pcp, why are you a Christian?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lickdafoot
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4/9/2012 10:57:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception.

Atheism is the belief in no god. This is separate from the thought that we don't know enough yet as a species to say anything conclusive. Many atheists and theists alike have this mindset.

As far as your point about rejecting 10,000 gods who are all omnipotent and omnipresent, what is in the name? it is the quality of god that has transcended time and generations of humanity.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
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4/9/2012 10:59:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:54:01 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:48:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
When people say "atheists are arrogant" I think they have in mind the gnu atheist types. Similarly, I don't see how your criticisms apply to all theists. Some theists I know are the most humble people I've ever had the good fortune to meet.

I think he was criticizing the assumptions made through theism as arrogant, not theists personally. By the way pcp, why are you a Christian?

Those assumptions aren't made by all theists. And, the short answer would be that it seems to make the most sense out of the world to me. Seems like that would be the answer that most would give when asked why they are religious or non-religious. If I listed out every reason it'd take all day and I'm far too lazy for all that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:57:15 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception.

Atheism is the belief in no god. This is separate from the thought that we don't know enough yet as a species to say anything conclusive. Many atheists and theists alike have this mindset.

As far as your point about rejecting 10,000 gods who are all omnipotent and omnipresent, what is in the name? it is the quality of god that has transcended time and generations of humanity.

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity. But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Nur-Ab-Sal
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4/10/2012 12:01:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't think one's belief system (or lack thereof) completely characterizes his humility (or lack thereof)...
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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4/10/2012 10:28:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:57:15 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
Atheism is the belief in no god. This is separate from the thought that we don't know enough yet as a species to say anything conclusive. Many atheists and theists alike have this mindset.

No, the modern definition of atheism includes agnosticism. The works of Jefferson were banned from Philadelphia libraries (until 1840) on the grouds he was an atheist; back then any non-christian was called an atheist, and Jefferson was a Deist. Definitions change over time. Now, anything short of affirmative belief is atheism.

Many atheists believe that some gods can be disproved and other gods cannot be disproved. In fact, most believers think that 9999 of the 10,000 gods can be disproved, so they only disagree with atheists on at most one.

As far as your point about rejecting 10,000 gods who are all omnipotent and omnipresent, what is in the name? it is the quality of god that has transcended time and generations of humanity.

Actually, most gods are not claimed to be omnipotent. Volcano gods only cause trouble if the proper offerings are not made. An Hawaiian Queen disproved the local volcano god by walking into the crater and refusing to make the required oferings of berries. Nothing happened, disproving the God. Of course, a volcano god with different habots might exist, but not that one.

Religons have gods with many conflicting attributes. They cannot logically coexist.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/10/2012 10:45:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Arrogance is Red Herring to the question of God at all, it has not relevence.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Fatihah
Posts: 7,711
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4/10/2012 10:49:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:
The Arrogance Of Theism Vs. That Of Atheism: Turning The Conventional Wisdom On Its Head

I hear frequently about the arrogance and presumptuousness of atheism/atheists from friends, rabbis, and teachers alike. After all, it is suggested, the vast majority of human beings throughout history have believed in some kind of God. Who are atheists to assert that they know better than the vast majority of mankind? This is, in all honesty, a childishly silly argument that irks me to no end, and not just because it is so blatantly wrong, but because the truth is precisely the other way around.

In the first place, proponents of the arrogance of atheism for the reason that most of mankind has believed in at least one God make a fatal flaw in their logic – they don't factor in the arrogance that they possess by their own argument. By this I mean to say that we are all atheists in regards to Zeus and Jupiter and Osiris and Ba'al. Think about that for a moment. The famous journalist H.L. Mencken once drew up a list of very nearly 10,000 Gods that used to be worshiped and aren't today. Writes Mencken in his short funeral oration to the gods of men past, entitled Memorial Service:

"You may think I spoof. That I invent the names. I do not… They were gods of the highest standing and dignity – gods of civilized peoples – worshiped and believed in by millions. All were theoretically omnipotent, omniscient, and immoral. And all are dead."

Why is it only atheists who are perceived as arrogant for rejecting god(s), when theists are also atheists when it comes to the thousands and thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout history? And why is it that they reject those gods in the first place? Perhaps when theists understand why they don't worship any of those thousands of now extinct but once revered gods, they'll understand why atheists say to just be more consistent and reject one more. Say theists reject 10,000 gods. All atheists do is reject 10,001. I can't stress this enough: we are all atheists in respect to the gods worshiped throughout most of mans history that only full fledged atheists are seen as arrogant for rejecting.

And now, to the crux of my argument. Is it not far more arrogant for a theist to believe something along the lines of "there is an omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe. I personally know this creator's most important thoughts and feelings. He cares about me like a son, listens to all my prayers, and watches me throughout every second of my life. Further, he loves my people 1000x more than he loves any other peoples – because I belong to his chosen ones."

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception. And the answer to everything is ultimately this – God did it. My God, who loves me and cares about my problems and hears my prayers. If this is not arrogance, I don't quite know what is. Certainly it is significantly less arrogant for atheists to suggest that the universe is basically indifferent to our needs, and that we are really just another species of animals, more intelligent than the others though we may be.

According to the faithful, the most crucial developments in the history of mankind were developed thousands of years ago when their holy books were revealed; the theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin (which many theists ignorantly reject and the other ones pathetically try to squeeze into an ancient, primitive creation narrative that no religion had a problem taking literally for hundreds and hundreds of years), Einstein's theory of relativity, Freud's advancements in psychology, Franklin's groundbreaking research into electricity… This all pales in comparison to their ancient and primitive texts which contradict science, history, morality, and common sense left and right. Even a cure for cancer wouldn't come close.

Why? Because the Bible is God's word, and that's all there is to it. Quite simply, religious people already have all the answers. All the important ones, anyway. Is this not the height of arrogance, as opposed to the atheist who is perfectly content saying "maybe we just don't know yet"? Is it not sheer chutzpah to suggest that you know the innermost thoughts and feelings of the omnipotent, omniscient creator of all that exists – and who knows yours too, because he cares so darn much about every single one of them? Does it not reek of self-importance to believe with every essence of your being that this deity – supposedly the father of all mankind – loves you and those who have been born into your faith considerably more than he cares about anyone else…. If he cares about them at all?

Not incidentally, up until very, very recently, almost all theists believed as a rule that God simply doesn't care about those people not fortunate enough to be born into the "right" faith; this ever just and merciful God sends them to burn in hell as eternal punishment. Or at the very least, according to the kinder theists, they will never reap the rewards that the lucky chosen ones will after death, when all the real fun begins.

Belief systems such as these are not just the epitome of arrogance. They are evil, they are pernicious, and what's more, there's not a shred of solid evidence to lend them credence. And it is my belief, based on everything I have put forth here and much, much more, that we should be overwhelmingly glad about this lack of evidence. We should thank goodness that the arrogance of theism reflects at most a deep psychological yearning for an all powerful father and a way to evade death – not the actual conditions of our universe as a whole, which are far more beautiful and complex and mysterious than anything a holy book could ever offer.

Response: When common sense tells us that intelligence can only originate from intelligence because by definition, uninteligence can not originate intelligence, and that no atheist has never seen a species change into another with their own eyes, then it would be more evident that Atheism carries the burden of arrogance when claiming that science itself supports it, if you ask me.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/10/2012 10:52:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 10:49:27 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:
The Arrogance Of Theism Vs. That Of Atheism: Turning The Conventional Wisdom On Its Head

I hear frequently about the arrogance and presumptuousness of atheism/atheists from friends, rabbis, and teachers alike. After all, it is suggested, the vast majority of human beings throughout history have believed in some kind of God. Who are atheists to assert that they know better than the vast majority of mankind? This is, in all honesty, a childishly silly argument that irks me to no end, and not just because it is so blatantly wrong, but because the truth is precisely the other way around.

In the first place, proponents of the arrogance of atheism for the reason that most of mankind has believed in at least one God make a fatal flaw in their logic – they don't factor in the arrogance that they possess by their own argument. By this I mean to say that we are all atheists in regards to Zeus and Jupiter and Osiris and Ba'al. Think about that for a moment. The famous journalist H.L. Mencken once drew up a list of very nearly 10,000 Gods that used to be worshiped and aren't today. Writes Mencken in his short funeral oration to the gods of men past, entitled Memorial Service:

"You may think I spoof. That I invent the names. I do not… They were gods of the highest standing and dignity – gods of civilized peoples – worshiped and believed in by millions. All were theoretically omnipotent, omniscient, and immoral. And all are dead."

Why is it only atheists who are perceived as arrogant for rejecting god(s), when theists are also atheists when it comes to the thousands and thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout history? And why is it that they reject those gods in the first place? Perhaps when theists understand why they don't worship any of those thousands of now extinct but once revered gods, they'll understand why atheists say to just be more consistent and reject one more. Say theists reject 10,000 gods. All atheists do is reject 10,001. I can't stress this enough: we are all atheists in respect to the gods worshiped throughout most of mans history that only full fledged atheists are seen as arrogant for rejecting.

And now, to the crux of my argument. Is it not far more arrogant for a theist to believe something along the lines of "there is an omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe. I personally know this creator's most important thoughts and feelings. He cares about me like a son, listens to all my prayers, and watches me throughout every second of my life. Further, he loves my people 1000x more than he loves any other peoples – because I belong to his chosen ones."

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception. And the answer to everything is ultimately this – God did it. My God, who loves me and cares about my problems and hears my prayers. If this is not arrogance, I don't quite know what is. Certainly it is significantly less arrogant for atheists to suggest that the universe is basically indifferent to our needs, and that we are really just another species of animals, more intelligent than the others though we may be.

According to the faithful, the most crucial developments in the history of mankind were developed thousands of years ago when their holy books were revealed; the theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin (which many theists ignorantly reject and the other ones pathetically try to squeeze into an ancient, primitive creation narrative that no religion had a problem taking literally for hundreds and hundreds of years), Einstein's theory of relativity, Freud's advancements in psychology, Franklin's groundbreaking research into electricity… This all pales in comparison to their ancient and primitive texts which contradict science, history, morality, and common sense left and right. Even a cure for cancer wouldn't come close.

Why? Because the Bible is God's word, and that's all there is to it. Quite simply, religious people already have all the answers. All the important ones, anyway. Is this not the height of arrogance, as opposed to the atheist who is perfectly content saying "maybe we just don't know yet"? Is it not sheer chutzpah to suggest that you know the innermost thoughts and feelings of the omnipotent, omniscient creator of all that exists – and who knows yours too, because he cares so darn much about every single one of them? Does it not reek of self-importance to believe with every essence of your being that this deity – supposedly the father of all mankind – loves you and those who have been born into your faith considerably more than he cares about anyone else…. If he cares about them at all?

Not incidentally, up until very, very recently, almost all theists believed as a rule that God simply doesn't care about those people not fortunate enough to be born into the "right" faith; this ever just and merciful God sends them to burn in hell as eternal punishment. Or at the very least, according to the kinder theists, they will never reap the rewards that the lucky chosen ones will after death, when all the real fun begins.

Belief systems such as these are not just the epitome of arrogance. They are evil, they are pernicious, and what's more, there's not a shred of solid evidence to lend them credence. And it is my belief, based on everything I have put forth here and much, much more, that we should be overwhelmingly glad about this lack of evidence. We should thank goodness that the arrogance of theism reflects at most a deep psychological yearning for an all powerful father and a way to evade death – not the actual conditions of our universe as a whole, which are far more beautiful and complex and mysterious than anything a holy book could ever offer.

Response: When common sense tells us that intelligence can only originate from intelligence because by definition, uninteligence can not originate intelligence, and that no atheist has never seen a species change into another with their own eyes, then it would be more evident that Atheism carries the burden of arrogance when claiming that science itself supports it, if you ask me.

The Fool: the Idea of intellegence is a Human conception. Thus it does not follow that this Human Idea, existed before humans. Its not so simple.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
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4/10/2012 11:34:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 10:28:53 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
No, the modern definition of atheism includes agnosticism.

Then it's not really atheism, is it? It's as if a group of theists emerged calling themselves the "New Theists" and proclaimed theism to be re-defined into an incoherent and childish definition that includes agnosticism as well. That is essentially what New Atheists have done with attempting (unfortunately quite successfully) to re-define atheism as "lack of belief in God." And all in a desperate attempt to alleviate the burden of proof...ah, New Atheists...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/10/2012 11:43:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 11:34:33 AM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/10/2012 10:28:53 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
No, the modern definition of atheism includes agnosticism.

Then it's not really atheism, is it? It's as if a group of theists emerged calling themselves the "New Theists" and proclaimed theism to be re-defined into an incoherent and childish definition that includes agnosticism as well.

Uhm... there already are agnostic theists. And this isn't new, either. George Smith wrote about this in 1979.

That is essentially what New Atheists have done with attempting (unfortunately quite successfully) to re-define atheism as "lack of belief in God." And all in a desperate attempt to alleviate the burden of proof...ah, New Atheists...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/10/2012 12:50:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

This is Zeitgeists argument against Christianity supporting the idea that it is based on previous pagan religions. The very religions it condemns are those that it is built upon.

But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
-- Hosea 13:16

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Lickdafoot
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4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 12:50:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

This is Zeitgeists argument against Christianity supporting the idea that it is based on previous pagan religions. The very religions it condemns are those that it is built upon.

Yes, I realize that it is often used against Christianity, although I don't believe that our ancient people were stupid and made up rubbish. They knew more about outer space and our solar system than we do know. I believe that this information, as well as many civil constructs and religious beliefs, was passed on to them from an outer source (not necessarily god) and that a lot of themes that have passed on stuck because they were closer to reality than the others.


But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
-- Hosea 13:16






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WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/10/2012 1:14:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 12:50:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

This is Zeitgeists argument against Christianity supporting the idea that it is based on previous pagan religions. The very religions it condemns are those that it is built upon.

Yes, I realize that it is often used against Christianity, although I don't believe that our ancient people were stupid and made up rubbish. They knew more about outer space and our solar system than we do know. I believe that this information, as well as many civil constructs and religious beliefs, was passed on to them from an outer source (not necessarily god) and that a lot of themes that have passed on stuck because they were closer to reality than the others.

Like, you don't believe in their gods (Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, etc.), right? So didn't they make that up according to you?

But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
-- Hosea 13:16






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GeoLaureate8
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4/10/2012 1:21:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
-- Hosea 13:16

You have no rebuttal to this? What do you do when you see all the Bible verses that are contrary to love and the golden rule? Do you really believe that is all religion is about? You think the message is all about love? What happens when you remove the belief in God, salvation, the afterlife, rules, sin, vicarious redemption? And why can't the message just be love, why add all the other nonsense?

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Lickdafoot
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4/10/2012 1:29:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:14:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 12:50:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

This is Zeitgeists argument against Christianity supporting the idea that it is based on previous pagan religions. The very religions it condemns are those that it is built upon.

Yes, I realize that it is often used against Christianity, although I don't believe that our ancient people were stupid and made up rubbish. They knew more about outer space and our solar system than we do know. I believe that this information, as well as many civil constructs and religious beliefs, was passed on to them from an outer source (not necessarily god) and that a lot of themes that have passed on stuck because they were closer to reality than the others.

Like, you don't believe in their gods (Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, etc.), right? So didn't they make that up according to you?

I believe that those gods existed (well, not actually queatzalcoatl & zeus, those were variations of the sumerian gods) and they were the nephilim.

But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
-- Hosea 13:16






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WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Lickdafoot
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4/10/2012 1:32:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:21:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
-- Hosea 13:16


You have no rebuttal to this? What do you do when you see all the Bible verses that are contrary to love and the golden rule? Do you really believe that is all religion is about? You think the message is all about love? What happens when you remove the belief in God, salvation, the afterlife, rules, sin, vicarious redemption? And why can't the message just be love, why add all the other nonsense?



There aren't many verses that are contrary to the golden rule. Maybe from our perspective. But our actions have consequences, and love is not always easy.

Worship of god is the most important part of Christianity. Moreso than the afterlife, rules, sin, etc. When you love him, love for everything else follows.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/10/2012 1:33:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:29:10 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:14:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 12:50:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

This is Zeitgeists argument against Christianity supporting the idea that it is based on previous pagan religions. The very religions it condemns are those that it is built upon.

Yes, I realize that it is often used against Christianity, although I don't believe that our ancient people were stupid and made up rubbish. They knew more about outer space and our solar system than we do know. I believe that this information, as well as many civil constructs and religious beliefs, was passed on to them from an outer source (not necessarily god) and that a lot of themes that have passed on stuck because they were closer to reality than the others.

Like, you don't believe in their gods (Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, etc.), right? So didn't they make that up according to you?

I believe that those gods existed (well, not actually queatzalcoatl & zeus, those were variations of the sumerian gods) and they were the nephilim.

How is Quetzalcoatl related to Sumerian gods?
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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4/10/2012 1:42:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:57:15 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception.

Atheism is the belief in no god. This is separate from the thought that we don't know enough yet as a species to say anything conclusive. Many atheists and theists alike have this mindset.

As far as your point about rejecting 10,000 gods who are all omnipotent and omnipresent, what is in the name? it is the quality of god that has transcended time and generations of humanity.

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

I'm not sure what your point is, unless it's that almost all religions are influenced by the ones around them and plagiarist a sh!ltload of stuff from them, which I would agree with. Creation stories, floods, even eery parallels between Jesus and the Egyptian God Horus. Horus was born of a virgin. Horus belonged to a sort of trinity with Osris and Ra. Horus was resurrected after he was murdered. Etc. Etc. My point is all these similarities that we both recognize are not evidence of biblical truth, just biblical unoriginality.

But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

I'm not sure how one could even use love and the biblical god in the same paragraph, unless you're talking about traits he certainly does not have. You clearly don't factor in the awful verses like those instructing how to keep slaves, how you don't get punished for beating slaves as long as they live a day afterwards, how women are literally property, and how homosexuals and witches are to be executed publicly. God promises vengeance upon the descendants of those who worship another God in the form of great plagues.

Sorry, this is not the God of love and peace, and while I respect the fact that you're clearly not one of those crazy fundamentalist literalistic because such people are simply twisted and evil, I don't respect the intellectual dishonesty that comes with "religious moderation." In the form of cherry picking verses about love and peace and whatnot.
Lickdafoot
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4/10/2012 1:43:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:33:42 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:29:10 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:14:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:08:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 12:50:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

This is Zeitgeists argument against Christianity supporting the idea that it is based on previous pagan religions. The very religions it condemns are those that it is built upon.

Yes, I realize that it is often used against Christianity, although I don't believe that our ancient people were stupid and made up rubbish. They knew more about outer space and our solar system than we do know. I believe that this information, as well as many civil constructs and religious beliefs, was passed on to them from an outer source (not necessarily god) and that a lot of themes that have passed on stuck because they were closer to reality than the others.

Like, you don't believe in their gods (Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, etc.), right? So didn't they make that up according to you?

I believe that those gods existed (well, not actually queatzalcoatl & zeus, those were variations of the sumerian gods) and they were the nephilim.

How is Quetzalcoatl related to Sumerian gods?

Oh, I can't remember the specifics. But when I get home tonight, I will look it up.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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4/10/2012 1:47:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:42:54 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:57:15 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception.

Atheism is the belief in no god. This is separate from the thought that we don't know enough yet as a species to say anything conclusive. Many atheists and theists alike have this mindset.

As far as your point about rejecting 10,000 gods who are all omnipotent and omnipresent, what is in the name? it is the quality of god that has transcended time and generations of humanity.

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

I'm not sure what your point is, unless it's that almost all religions are influenced by the ones around them and plagiarist a sh!ltload of stuff from them, which I would agree with. Creation stories, floods, even eery parallels between Jesus and the Egyptian God Horus. Horus was born of a virgin. Horus belonged to a sort of trinity with Osris and Ra. Horus was resurrected after he was murdered. Etc. Etc. My point is all these similarities that we both recognize are not evidence of biblical truth, just biblical unoriginality.

But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

I'm not sure how one could even use love and the biblical god in the same paragraph, unless you're talking about traits he certainly does not have. You clearly don't factor in the awful verses like those instructing how to keep slaves, how you don't get punished for beating slaves as long as they live a day afterwards, how women are literally property, and how homosexuals and witches are to be executed publicly. God promises vengeance upon the descendants of those who worship another God in the form of great plagues.

show me those verses.

Sorry, this is not the God of love and peace, and while I respect the fact that you're clearly not one of those crazy fundamentalist literalistic because such people are simply twisted and evil, I don't respect the intellectual dishonesty that comes with "religious moderation." In the form of cherry picking verses about love and peace and whatnot.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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4/10/2012 1:55:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/9/2012 10:48:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
When people say "atheists are arrogant" I think they have in mind the gnu atheist types.

Really? Interesting. My experiences have been different. Then again, I've spent almost all of my schooling in private jewish schools where the vast majority of the kids and teachers are believing, practicing Jews. So really in the settings where I've been in, just the proposition of atheism itself - that I apparently claim to know something that the vast majority of mankind disagreed with - is arrogant. Basically they say "who are you to suggest that you know better than everyone else/most people?"

Similarly, I don't see how your criticisms apply to all theists. Some theists I know are the most humble people I've ever had the good fortune to meet.

Which is why my main argument was the arrogance required to accept theism, not the personalities of theists vs atheists. My criticisms apply to all of theism. In the first place, all theists reject 99.9999% of the gods that atheists reject, atheists just reject one more. So by that whole "atheism is arrogant" argument that I get quite often, so are theists for the most part.

And I think it's unbelievably arrogant to suggest that the answer to the problems in all the universe is ultimately "God did it"; my god, who loves me, who cares for me, who would love to hear my problems night and day, and who has revealed his most important ideas/secrets about the universe to me. It's far more humble to stop pretending to be certain about things we just can't be certain about, and admit that we're just another kind of animal; the world wasn't created just for us (or if you're religious, just for the adherents of your religion - if this isn't arrogance wtf is?!)
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/10/2012 2:03:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:47:48 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:42:54 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm not sure how one could even use love and the biblical god in the same paragraph, unless you're talking about traits he certainly does not have. You clearly don't factor in the awful verses like those instructing how to keep slaves, how you don't get punished for beating slaves as long as they live a day afterwards, how women are literally property, and how homosexuals and witches are to be executed publicly. God promises vengeance upon the descendants of those who worship another God in the form of great plagues.

show me those verses.

You can't be serious. You never heard of those verses?

Take a look here. All the repulsive Bible verses wrapped in one.

http://www.evilbible.com...

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.
.
.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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4/10/2012 2:09:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 1:47:48 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:42:54 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 4/9/2012 11:06:49 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:57:15 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/9/2012 10:29:04 PM, jat93 wrote:

On the other hand, I find that it's the atheists who are humble enough to admit that there are certain things we just don't know yet as a species. Religion, however, claims to have literally all the answers. Literally, without exception.

Atheism is the belief in no god. This is separate from the thought that we don't know enough yet as a species to say anything conclusive. Many atheists and theists alike have this mindset.

As far as your point about rejecting 10,000 gods who are all omnipotent and omnipresent, what is in the name? it is the quality of god that has transcended time and generations of humanity.

and yes, I realize that each god had different attributes or details made up about them. however, if you look back throughout history, many of the same stories have popped up. way back to the ancient Sumerians. their creation story is similar to what is in the bible, for instance. many religions throughout existence talk of a deluge, and much religious prophecy revolves around a final end of the age for humanity.

I'm not sure what your point is, unless it's that almost all religions are influenced by the ones around them and plagiarist a sh!ltload of stuff from them, which I would agree with. Creation stories, floods, even eery parallels between Jesus and the Egyptian God Horus. Horus was born of a virgin. Horus belonged to a sort of trinity with Osris and Ra. Horus was resurrected after he was murdered. Etc. Etc. My point is all these similarities that we both recognize are not evidence of biblical truth, just biblical unoriginality.

But the details don't matter so much as the message - love is most important. love everyone. treat people how you want to be treated. praise god for the wonderful world that he has made us.

I'm not sure how one could even use love and the biblical god in the same paragraph, unless you're talking about traits he certainly does not have. You clearly don't factor in the awful verses like those instructing how to keep slaves, how you don't get punished for beating slaves as long as they live a day afterwards, how women are literally property, and how homosexuals and witches are to be executed publicly. God promises vengeance upon the descendants of those who worship another God in the form of great plagues.

show me those verses.

Okay.

Slavery: Exodus 21, verses 20-21 (and more in that chapter) decrees that if you beat your slave to the point of death you will be severely punished, but if he's still alive after a day or two, the owner is let totally off the hook without so much as a word of rebuke.

Women as property: Women are grouped in the Ten Commandments along with "thy neighbor's" house, ox, @$$, and other property that "thou shalt not covet." And if that isn't enough proof of the Bible's total disregard for women as sentient human beings, refer to the following quote by Richard Dawkins:

"The book of Numbers tells how God incited Moses to attack the Midianites. His army made short work of slaying all the men, and they burned all the Midianite cities, but they spared the women and children. This merciful restraint by his soldiers infuriated Moses, and he gave orders that all the boy children should be killed, and all the women who were not virgins. 'But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves" (Numbers 31:18)." The virgins were to be kept alive for the Israelite men to have sex with them.

Murdering homosexuals: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13

And refer to following verses in Deuteronomy which basically encompasses all this awfulness and disregard for human life I've been talking about:

28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
Lickdafoot
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4/10/2012 2:12:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 2:03:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:47:48 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:42:54 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm not sure how one could even use love and the biblical god in the same paragraph, unless you're talking about traits he certainly does not have. You clearly don't factor in the awful verses like those instructing how to keep slaves, how you don't get punished for beating slaves as long as they live a day afterwards, how women are literally property, and how homosexuals and witches are to be executed publicly. God promises vengeance upon the descendants of those who worship another God in the form of great plagues.

show me those verses.

You can't be serious. You never heard of those verses?

Take a look here. All the repulsive Bible verses wrapped in one.

http://www.evilbible.com...



I know there are such verses in the OT. I was asking him for specifics as they are often taken out of context.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/10/2012 2:14:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/10/2012 2:12:03 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 2:03:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:47:48 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 4/10/2012 1:42:54 PM, jat93 wrote:
I'm not sure how one could even use love and the biblical god in the same paragraph, unless you're talking about traits he certainly does not have. You clearly don't factor in the awful verses like those instructing how to keep slaves, how you don't get punished for beating slaves as long as they live a day afterwards, how women are literally property, and how homosexuals and witches are to be executed publicly. God promises vengeance upon the descendants of those who worship another God in the form of great plagues.

show me those verses.

You can't be serious. You never heard of those verses?

Take a look here. All the repulsive Bible verses wrapped in one.

http://www.evilbible.com...



I know there are such verses in the OT. I was asking him for specifics as they are often taken out of context.

. . . .

I don't think that they really are taken out of context, LDF, and the ones that are cited most often aren't even all of them . . . I mean, God even condones Abraham selling his wife (Sarah) into sexual slavery twice.