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Irrefutable Proof God Doesn't Exist

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/20/2009 1:55:35 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

*struggles with temptation to post 'Tumble weed' Youtube video.. wins* (but utilizes the joke anyway by this aside; having it both ways)

Anything that is defined MUST be, BY DEFINITION, limited. Or else it is everything which ends up meaning it's NOTHING.
If we take the God of the Bible as an example, then it clearly teaches that God has certain properties and principles etc:
He is Holy, therfore, BY DEFINITION, He cannot be unholy.
He is Light, therefore, BY DEFINITION, He cannot be darkness.

If God is A then there must be nonA.
NonA was the 'fruit of the knowledge of good & evil' in the garden of eden.
Adam ate nonA and so became nonA (you are what you eat!) as did ALL his progeny. (you and I brother Geo)
Jesus Christ (A) entered human history to give us a SECOND CHANCE to CHOOSE A.

CHOOSE LIFE!
CHOOSE A!
CHOOSE JESUS CHRIST!

James4:7
THEREFORE
SUBMIT to God.
RESIST the devil
and he WILL flee from you.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/20/2009 1:59:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 1:55:35 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

*struggles with temptation to post 'Tumble weed' Youtube video.. wins* (but utilizes the joke anyway by this aside; having it both ways)

Anything that is defined MUST be, BY DEFINITION, limited. Or else it is everything which ends up meaning it's NOTHING.
If we take the God of the Bible as an example, then it clearly teaches that God has certain properties and principles etc:
He is Holy, therfore, BY DEFINITION, He cannot be unholy.
He is Light, therefore, BY DEFINITION, He cannot be darkness.

If God is A then there must be nonA.
NonA was the 'fruit of the knowledge of good & evil' in the garden of eden.
Adam ate nonA and so became nonA (you are what you eat!) as did ALL his progeny. (you and I brother Geo)
Jesus Christ (A) entered human history to give us a SECOND CHANCE to CHOOSE A.

Ok, so you admit that he is a finite being. How do you perceive or visualize Yahweh?

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/20/2009 2:57:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 1:59:30 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/20/2009 1:55:35 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

*struggles with temptation to post 'Tumble weed' Youtube video.. wins* (but utilizes the joke anyway by this aside; having it both ways)

Anything that is defined MUST be, BY DEFINITION, limited. Or else it is everything which ends up meaning it's NOTHING.
If we take the God of the Bible as an example, then it clearly teaches that God has certain properties and principles etc:
He is Holy, therfore, BY DEFINITION, He cannot be unholy.
He is Light, therefore, BY DEFINITION, He cannot be darkness.

If God is A then there must be nonA.
NonA was the 'fruit of the knowledge of good & evil' in the garden of eden.
Adam ate nonA and so became nonA (you are what you eat!) as did ALL his progeny. (you and I brother Geo)
Jesus Christ (A) entered human history to give us a SECOND CHANCE to CHOOSE A.

Ok, so you admit that he is a finite being. How do you perceive or visualize Yahweh?

.

We are made in His image: As He is invisible and Spiritual in nature that means we are 'as He is' in our ways.. our perception etc.
Now, Jesus Christ is the visible manifestation of God.
He is the 'Word made flesh'.
If you Geo, are listening to a CD and I ask 'who are you listening to?'
You would NOT reply 'I am listening to an auditory digital representation of Guns N Roses."
You would say 'I'm listening to Guns N Roses' BECAUSE that CD is an absolutely honest and fair manifestation of GnR.. it's captures the truth of who they are, or were.
In the same way Jesus Christ is an absolutely honest and fair manifestation of God the Father.
So, I visualize God as Christ on the cross: It's where God FINALLY gets to say:
"No, you're all wrong about Me, THIS IS ME."

1Corinthians1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing BUT to us who are being saved it is THE POWER OF GOD.
The Cross.. the Cross.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/20/2009 1:37:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 2:57:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We are made in His image: As He is invisible and Spiritual in nature that means we are 'as He is' in our ways.. our perception etc.
Now, Jesus Christ is the visible manifestation of God.
He is the 'Word made flesh'.
If you Geo, are listening to a CD and I ask 'who are you listening to?'
You would NOT reply 'I am listening to an auditory digital representation of Guns N Roses."
You would say 'I'm listening to Guns N Roses' BECAUSE that CD is an absolutely honest and fair manifestation of GnR.. it's captures the truth of who they are, or were.
In the same way Jesus Christ is an absolutely honest and fair manifestation of God the Father.
So, I visualize God as Christ on the cross: It's where God FINALLY gets to say:
"No, you're all wrong about Me, THIS IS ME."

1Corinthians1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing BUT to us who are being saved it is THE POWER OF GOD.


So what you're saying is, you don't even know what God is, yet you worship him anyways. Yahweh =/= Jesus.

How ironic that everytime i ask theists how they percieve God, they can't tell me because they don't know what God is, yet they assert that he exists. You can't assert something exists if you don't even know what that something is.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Achidnagar
Posts: 12
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7/20/2009 2:12:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

This particular assertion that God is not infinite makes an assumption: the universe is infinite, and God must be everything in the universe to also be infinite. But infinity is conceptual, not mathematical. You can take anything away from it, and it will still be infinity. To say that by finding specific things, even many specific things that are not God, God is not infinite, is to place limits on infinity. If one is to prove God is not infinite, they must identify everything that God is and find that within the entire universe, every single one of these things is finite. Obviously, that is impossible in an infinite universe.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/20/2009 7:22:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 2:12:43 PM, Achidnagar wrote:
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

This particular assertion that God is not infinite makes an assumption: the universe is infinite, and God must be everything in the universe to also be infinite. But infinity is conceptual, not mathematical. You can take anything away from it, and it will still be infinity. To say that by finding specific things, even many specific things that are not God, God is not infinite, is to place limits on infinity. If one is to prove God is not infinite, they must identify everything that God is and find that within the entire universe, every single one of these things is finite. Obviously, that is impossible in an infinite universe.

Infinity and everything are two different concepts, but this was not a perspective I had thought of.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/20/2009 9:18:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 7:14:42 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Geo: You are pantheist, correct?

Yes. Kind of ironic really. I believe in an infinite God and the finite extraterrestrials perceived as gods.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
beem0r
Posts: 1,155
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7/20/2009 11:17:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.
You assume that for anything to be infinite, it must be everything - or more precisely, that there cannot be anything separate from it. This is false. For instance, picture a dimension that has an infinite length. The mere fact that it is infinite does not mean that it is everything - in fact, there could be other infinite dimensions apart from it.

Here is a description of a god that could certainly exist and who would indeed fit all the criteria you say are impossible.

We live in X-dimensional space - perhaps he has an extra spatial dimension (X+1). This would make his size, relative to us, infinite.
Note that merely being X+1 dimensions means he can see any part of X-space without having to look directly through any other part of X-space: just as we 3d beings can see any point on a 2D game board, or a small triangle would be able to see any point on an adjacent line. This almost already necessarily fulfills the definition of omniscient.
Omnipresence is certainly less stressed than anything else, and it can largely be seen as symbolic: we're supposed to see god in all things because they are his work and therefore a reflection of him.
Omnipotence would be fulfilled with the ability to freely traverse time and affect stuff, since that would give him the ability to do anything to this X-space we live in.

However, there's almost no good reason to believe that such a being actually exists. First, there is no phenomenon which directly implies the existence of a god. Second, the no-god explanation is much simpler, and even with even evidence, it would be therefore more likely. Further, all the common monotheisms today claim that souls exist and they go to some extraplanar dwelling place once the body dies - whereas this is contradicted by the fact that the entire human experience happens in the brain, a physical object that stops functioning at death.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/21/2009 1:22:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 11:17:23 PM, beem0r wrote:
You assume that for anything to be infinite, it must be everything - or more precisely, that there cannot be anything separate from it. This is false.

Infinity is something without bounds. If there is something that is separate from it, or exists outside of it, it must have bounds, thus making it finite. The only thing that is inifinite is the Universe itself which is everything that exists. No infinite object can exist inside the Universe because that object would have bounds that separates it from the Universe, thus making it finite. It may however have an infinite length in measurement that extends the same infinite length of the Universe, but that object still has bounds and is not infinite.

For instance, picture a dimension that has an infinite length. The mere fact that it is infinite does not mean that it is everything - in fact, there could be other infinite dimensions apart from it.

Infinite length =/= Infinity

Here is a description of a god that could certainly exist and who would indeed fit all the criteria you say are impossible.

We live in X-dimensional space - perhaps he has an extra spatial dimension (X+1). This would make his size, relative to us, infinite.

That makes no sense at all. Just because this being extends through an extra dimension does not make him infinite, it makes him interdimensional.

Note that merely being X+1 dimensions means he can see any part of X-space without having to look directly through any other part of X-space: just as we 3d beings can see any point on a 2D game board, or a small triangle would be able to see any point on an adjacent line.

And this precisely proves my point. A 2d being might think a 3d being such as ourselves is an infinite deity, but that does not make it true. So your assertion that having an extra dimension makes us perceive something as infinite, does not actually mean it's infinite. Just like a human being is not infinite, even though a 2d being might think so.

This almost already necessarily fulfills the definition of omniscient.

I never said anything about omniscience.

Omnipresence is certainly less stressed than anything else, and it can largely be seen as symbolic: we're supposed to see god in all things because they are his work and therefore a reflection of him.

That's an assumption, and a false one at that. Theists generally take it literally, though I doubt they have truly thought it out, because if they did, it would lead to pantheism.

Omnipotence would be fulfilled with the ability to freely traverse time and affect stuff, since that would give him the ability to do anything to this X-space we live in.

Being extradimensional does not automatically mean that this being can do anything to our dimension at any given moment.

However, there's almost no good reason to believe that such a being actually exists. First, there is no phenomenon which directly implies the existence of a god. Second, the no-god explanation is much simpler, and even with even evidence, it would be therefore more likely.

Interdimensional beings do exist, they just don't fit the criteria of a god i.e. infinite, omnipotent, etc.

Further, all the common monotheisms today claim that souls exist and they go to some extraplanar dwelling place once the body dies - whereas this is contradicted by the fact that the entire human experience happens in the brain, a physical object that stops functioning at death.

First of all, this is entirely unrelated to the notion of a god. Souls and spiritual dimensions can exist whether there is a god or not. Atheists can be spiritual too. Secondly, you are making the assumption that the entire human experience happens in the brain. Our consciousness and the brain are separate. The brain is like a computer that decodes reality, but our consciousness operates the computer.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
KRFournier
Posts: 690
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7/21/2009 10:41:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

It seems to me that this suffers from the fallacy of equivocation. You are defining Universe to mean all things that exist, then you use a different definition--one that equates the Universe to the physical and finite cosmos--to prove that God cannot be infinite.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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7/21/2009 11:06:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 10:41:50 PM, KRFournier wrote:
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
First let me clarify that when I say "God" I mean the Deity of monotheistic religions. This is proof that such a Deity cannot exist.

God is finite and limited. He is not Satan, he is not the world, he is not the Universe. If he is not any of the above, he is limited and therefore finite. A monotheistic God is NOT everything.

Theists always assert that God is infinite, omnipotent, omnipresent etc. but if the above are true, God is not infinite. The only way God could be infinite and omnipresent is if God = Universe (everything that exists). If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.

Since God is finite, it's safe to picture him as something similar to Zeus or Yahweh from the Da Vinci painting. A finite entity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com...

This finite entity is believed to exist somewhere out in space (or outside of space-time.)

If it were true that this entity is finite and exists in space, what does that make it? An extraterrestrial entity (no, not little green men, it merely means life outside of earth.) Extraterrestrials are NOT gods. These beings may have superpowers, they may be extremely intelligent, but they are not omnipotent, infinite, omni-present, or anything else that Theists think is God.

Therefore, an infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent, monotheistic God does not and cannot exist. Only a godlike, finite extraterrestrial can exist.

Thoughts on this?

.

It seems to me that this suffers from the fallacy of equivocation. You are defining Universe to mean all things that exist, then you use a different definition--one that equates the Universe to the physical and finite cosmos--to prove that God cannot be infinite.

When did I ever equate the Universe to the physical, finite cosmos? First of all, the Universe is the cosmos. Also, I asserted that the Universe IS infinite, and I never specified whether it was limited to merely the physical world. When I say Universe, I mean both the physical and the spiritual realms. Both exist within the Universe and they must, otherwise the Universe wouldn't be everything that exists.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/22/2009 8:13:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 1:37:21 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 7/20/2009 2:57:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
We are made in His image: As He is invisible and Spiritual in nature that means we are 'as He is' in our ways.. our perception etc.
Now, Jesus Christ is the visible manifestation of God.
He is the 'Word made flesh'.
If you Geo, are listening to a CD and I ask 'who are you listening to?'
You would NOT reply 'I am listening to an auditory digital representation of Guns N Roses."
You would say 'I'm listening to Guns N Roses' BECAUSE that CD is an absolutely honest and fair manifestation of GnR.. it's captures the truth of who they are, or were.
In the same way Jesus Christ is an absolutely honest and fair manifestation of God the Father.
So, I visualize God as Christ on the cross: It's where God FINALLY gets to say:
"No, you're all wrong about Me, THIS IS ME."

1Corinthians1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing BUT to us who are being saved it is THE POWER OF GOD.


So what you're saying is, you don't even know what God is, yet you worship him anyways. Yahweh =/= Jesus.

How ironic that everytime i ask theists how they percieve God, they can't tell me because they don't know what God is, yet they assert that he exists. You can't assert something exists if you don't even know what that something is.

If you're only going to choose your OWN answers to your OWN questions then we'll just cut out the middle man!

How about ACTUALLY addressing my post?

Romans1:22
P
R
O
F
E
S
S
I
N
G
themselves to be wise
T
H
E
Y
became fools.
The Cross.. the Cross.
KRFournier
Posts: 690
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7/22/2009 8:38:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/21/2009 11:06:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

When did I ever equate the Universe to the physical, finite cosmos? First of all, the Universe is the cosmos. Also, I asserted that the Universe IS infinite, and I never specified whether it was limited to merely the physical world. When I say Universe, I mean both the physical and the spiritual realms. Both exist within the Universe and they must, otherwise the Universe wouldn't be everything that exists.

.

Then the fallacy of equivocation has to do with the term infinite and, venturing a guess, omnipresent, omniscient, and so on. These terms are fairly ambiguous, or at least understood differently from person to person. So, define these terms precisely and maybe we can get somewhere.

If you want to debate this, feel free to throw it my way. Could be interesting. I really do not enjoy forums debating.
DATCMOTO
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7/23/2009 4:13:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 11:17:23 PM, beem0r wrote:
At 7/19/2009 11:34:41 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
If he is not everything that exists, he is finite.
You assume that for anything to be infinite, it must be everything - or more precisely, that there cannot be anything separate from it. This is false. For instance, picture a dimension that has an infinite length. The mere fact that it is infinite does not mean that it is everything - in fact, there could be other infinite dimensions apart from it.

Here is a description of a god that could certainly exist and who would indeed fit all the criteria you say are impossible.

We live in X-dimensional space - perhaps he has an extra spatial dimension (X+1). This would make his size, relative to us, infinite.
Note that merely being X+1 dimensions means he can see any part of X-space without having to look directly through any other part of X-space: just as we 3d beings can see any point on a 2D game board, or a small triangle would be able to see any point on an adjacent line. This almost already necessarily fulfills the definition of omniscient.
Omnipresence is certainly less stressed than anything else, and it can largely be seen as symbolic: we're supposed to see god in all things because they are his work and therefore a reflection of him.
Omnipotence would be fulfilled with the ability to freely traverse time and affect stuff, since that would give him the ability to do anything to this X-space we live in.


However, there's almost no good reason to believe that such a being actually exists. First, there is no phenomenon which directly implies the existence of a god. Second, the no-god explanation is much simpler, and even with even evidence, it would be therefore more likely. Further, all the common monotheisms today claim that souls exist and they go to some extraplanar dwelling place once the body dies - whereas this is contradicted by the fact that the entire human experience happens in the brain, a physical object that stops functioning at death.

ALL phenomenon implies the existence of God.
ANY phenomenon implies the existence of God.

You walk into a room and I am reading a book.
" What are you reading? " You ask.
" A science fiction novel. " I reply.
" Who by? " You wonder.
" No-one. " I answer.

Daft, isn't it?

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1:22
professing themselves to be
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they became
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The Cross.. the Cross.