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Open minds?

KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind? For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth? I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/11/2012 1:25:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind?
For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along?

I no longer expect to find a good theist argument, but I would change my views if I did.

At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

Absolutely. If an argument doesn't work, it shouldn't be presented.

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth?

To seek the truth, to share the truth, and to hone our skills with language.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/11/2012 1:29:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I try to, but once discussions degrade into nothing but religion bashing(which they most often do) it's hard; I'm willing to have discussions and an open-mind if you're willing to be respectful. It's not a hard concept really. I'm also not saying you can't criticize and argue against my views, just that it should be done in a respectful manner.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/11/2012 1:50:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind? For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

I think most of us here have an open mind. In fact, there's a recent thread on how DDO has changed or altered people's beliefs: http://www.debate.org...

There's very few people who are both ignorant and stubborn here. I think many debators here have a strong basis for their conclusions and thus it seems they are just stubborn. But they have already heard many of the counter arguments and know (at least in their mind) that they are false or don't work. It would take a new angle and a strong argument or stronger defense of a counter argument to sway them. Try to see if you can do it.

Me personally, I am not here to convert people, but rather to debate. I prefer that everyone has their own beliefs and ideals. If I actually succeeded in converting every single one of you, our even just one, I would be disappointed. If everyone believed the same, then debate would die. The point of this site is to have opposing viewpoints clash. So what if you can't convince your opponent. That's not the point.

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth? I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.

Why not? If no one is degrading you personally, then what's the problem?

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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4/11/2012 2:13:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree that most people here do have open minds. Being open to another argument does not necessarily require a flip in your beliefs. To be honest, people usually debate so that they can strengthen their own points and beliefs. Meeting with adversity and stronger arguments allows one to reevaluate their beliefs from a more well-rounded perspective. It can mean that your case needs to be strengthened rather than outright changed. It gives you a chance to look deeper and come to better understanding about your own beliefs - to realize if they are coming from some place solid, and if they are, if you are articulating them in an effective way. So beliefs here ARE constantly being altered, in the sense that opposing views enable them to grow and evolve into something closer to completion.

That being said, it does take an open mind to change your beliefs and to admit that they were coming from a place that was not honest. Many people let their egos get in the way. That can happen in a setting where strong beliefs are constantly being brought to the table. Change is something that you cannot force on another.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/11/2012 2:18:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind? For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth? I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.

Im open to arguments and evidences that will change my mind. I dont negate the possibility of a God.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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4/11/2012 2:36:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind? For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth? I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.

In my experience forum debates rarely if ever end up in actually convincing the other side. I rarely debate on forums anymore.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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4/11/2012 2:37:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind? For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?


I'm going to answer the third one first: I'm willing to tweak, throw out, or overhaul my arguments if they don't work. I used to use an argument from non cognitivism, for instance, but I don't really think it's effective. I think it's still something to think about, mind you, but it just doesn't seem to be persuasive.

As to the first and second, I'm reminded of something Micheal Martin said (which I'm sure to mangle), which was something like this: We don't just flip flop positions based on a stronger argument. Instead, what happens when we are confronted with a stronger argument, we should take some time to research it and to think about it. After some consideration, we will update our views in some fashion (either adopting the position the argument was referring to or coming up with a rational reason not to adopt it).

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth? I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.

Most people on forums argue to feel superior, I would say. I'm trying my hardest not to get not into that whenever I start a discussion online. Sometimes I'm successful,sometimes I fail.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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4/11/2012 2:43:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everyone is going to claim open-mindedness. Most people will actually believe that about themselves. Don't believe the hype.

Debate and argumentation, especially against superior positions, are more likely to embitter someone and entrench them within their original beliefs than they are to change any minds. Why do the work of self-reflection and reevaluation when this site makes it socially acceptable to attack the messenger?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/11/2012 11:01:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Keeping an open mind is one of the principles I hold upmost in trying to live by.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
baggins
Posts: 855
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4/12/2012 12:28:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind...?

I am not sure whether I would call myself having an open mind. My views on some subjects are quite rigid, and I doubt it is likely to change. On many subjects, I don't really have a strong view. So they are liable to change significantly.

...For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

I insist on some kind of intellectual honesty with myself. If someone presents a argument where I am not knowledgeable, I acknowledge my ignorance. Alternatively I try to increase my knowledge until I can answer the argument.

An associated problem is, I am not a very good debater or communicator. Often I am not able to argue effectively even if I can see the flaw in other person's arguments. Lack of time is also a problem.

...Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth?

I do not think I consider myself as superior - at least as far as debating skills are concerned.

...I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.

If someone is trying to engage with you seriously, do debate it out. If you suspect that the your opponent is not sincere, just fall silent. Anyway that is what I do...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/12/2012 3:29:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/11/2012 1:18:09 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
So how many people who frequent these forums actually keep an open mind? For instance, how many of us are actually willing to rethink our views if someone with a stronger argument comes along? At the very least, how many of us are willing to tweak our arguments if we find they either don't work or they could be better?

Are we really here just to argue and feel superior, or are we really here with an honest desire to seek the truth? I'm guilty of this, too. I've decided that if the people on this forum can't discuss with an open mind, then I'm probably going to hang back and leave the arguing to my debates. There's a reason I don't like debating in the forums.

The Fool: I don't believe in anything that I don't think I could rationally defend.

Open minded is a vague assertion. To openminded leaves you guilible to closemind prevents from evolving(taking in new and better ideas).
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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4/12/2012 3:30:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
IF you are logically refuted then you should change your views, if you care about not being fundementalist. Or rational for that matter.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/12/2012 3:49:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Nope. Never. You know me, guys. Always stuck with the same mindset. Wouldn't want my brains to fall out, you know.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord