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Ex-Communicated 9 Y/O

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/20/2009 8:40:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Back in March, news spread about this 9 year old girl in Brazil who was raped and subsequently impregnated by her step-father with twins. The decision was made for her to have an abortion. Almost immediately, the head clergy in her diocese ex-communicated her, as abortion is considered a mortal sin and that is the usual punishment for anyone who has one. Recently, Pope Benedict XVI issued a statement where he once again backed up the clergy's decision to excommunicate her immediately.

This, to me, seems entirely harsh, immoral and as Un-Christianlike as you can get! The church's point was that there are definitive rules and you can't bend them in a situation just because it is the most convenient thing to go. Rules aren't supposed to be situational, they said, but absolute. After all, they are not suggestions but rather rules to live by. I understand that, but...

A 9 year old is not physically able to carry a child let alone twins (there are a lot of biological factors that prohibit it from giving the fetuses the nutrition and support they would need, etc.). Moreover, doesn't the Christian principles of tolerance, love and forgiveness ring superior over punishment and evil? Having the abortion was not her decision, I'm sure, so once again she is being punished for something out of her control. She was abused, raped and put in a situation where she was responsible for the pending death of 2 babies (they would have died either way) and her own life was in harm if she tried to carry them to term.

This situation is awful and there are no easy answers. Still, I believe there's a right one (and the Church didn't choose it... surprise surprise). Causing the little girl additional harm by taking her religious affiliation away (she comes from a very religious community and that is all she knows) is just punishing her even more. Sure she could still have her faith, but after this ordeal, would YOU?
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DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/20/2009 8:57:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 8:40:01 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Back in March, news spread about this 9 year old girl in Brazil who was raped and subsequently impregnated by her step-father with twins. The decision was made for her to have an abortion. Almost immediately, the head clergy in her diocese ex-communicated her, as abortion is considered a mortal sin and that is the usual punishment for anyone who has one. Recently, Pope Benedict XVI issued a statement where he once again backed up the clergy's decision to excommunicate her immediately.

This, to me, seems entirely harsh, immoral and as Un-Christianlike as you can get! The church's point was that there are definitive rules and you can't bend them in a situation just because it is the most convenient thing to go. Rules aren't supposed to be situational, they said, but absolute. After all, they are not suggestions but rather rules to live by. I understand that, but...

A 9 year old is not physically able to carry a child let alone twins (there are a lot of biological factors that prohibit it from giving the fetuses the nutrition and support they would need, etc.). Moreover, doesn't the Christian principles of tolerance, love and forgiveness ring superior over punishment and evil? Having the abortion was not her decision, I'm sure, so once again she is being punished for something out of her control. She was abused, raped and put in a situation where she was responsible for the pending death of 2 babies (they would have died either way) and her own life was in harm if she tried to carry them to term.

This situation is awful and there are no easy answers. Still, I believe there's a right one (and the Church didn't choose it... surprise surprise). Causing the little girl additional harm by taking her religious affiliation away (she comes from a very religious community and that is all she knows) is just punishing her even more. Sure she could still have her faith, but after this ordeal, would YOU?

What are YOUR motives for posting this?
WHO are you listening to? WHOSE influence are you under?

Let ME enlighten you: This is garden variety SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
WHENEVER we point the finger at someone and say "BAD!" we are REALLY only pointing at ourselves and saying "GOOD!".

NOW, to add the MURDER of a completely INNOCENT unborn CHILD on top of the tragedy of rape/abuse is only making an intolerable situation even WORSE.
As for the whole 'ex-communication' thing it's an unbiblical nonsense like most of catholic churchs views.

James4:7
THERFORE
s
u
b
m
i
t
to God
r
e
s
i
s
t
the devil
a
n
d
he will flee from you.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/20/2009 9:16:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Frankly, if the "Decision was made for her," that seems to me to be almost as bad as the rape. I don't so much care what the Church does, they are a private organization, and not one that can at the same time behave morally and still be the church, so complaining about what they do is kind of silly. The abortion is certainly the right thing-- but only for her to choose. 9 years old or no.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
LB628
Posts: 176
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7/20/2009 9:31:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 8:57:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 7/20/2009 8:40:01 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Back in March, news spread about this 9 year old girl in Brazil who was raped and subsequently impregnated by her step-father with twins. The decision was made for her to have an abortion. Almost immediately, the head clergy in her diocese ex-communicated her, as abortion is considered a mortal sin and that is the usual punishment for anyone who has one. Recently, Pope Benedict XVI issued a statement where he once again backed up the clergy's decision to excommunicate her immediately.

This, to me, seems entirely harsh, immoral and as Un-Christianlike as you can get! The church's point was that there are definitive rules and you can't bend them in a situation just because it is the most convenient thing to go. Rules aren't supposed to be situational, they said, but absolute. After all, they are not suggestions but rather rules to live by. I understand that, but...

A 9 year old is not physically able to carry a child let alone twins (there are a lot of biological factors that prohibit it from giving the fetuses the nutrition and support they would need, etc.). Moreover, doesn't the Christian principles of tolerance, love and forgiveness ring superior over punishment and evil? Having the abortion was not her decision, I'm sure, so once again she is being punished for something out of her control. She was abused, raped and put in a situation where she was responsible for the pending death of 2 babies (they would have died either way) and her own life was in harm if she tried to carry them to term.

This situation is awful and there are no easy answers. Still, I believe there's a right one (and the Church didn't choose it... surprise surprise). Causing the little girl additional harm by taking her religious affiliation away (she comes from a very religious community and that is all she knows) is just punishing her even more. Sure she could still have her faith, but after this ordeal, would YOU?


What are YOUR motives for posting this?
WHO are you listening to? WHOSE influence are you under?

Let ME enlighten you: This is garden variety SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
WHENEVER we point the finger at someone and say "BAD!" we are REALLY only pointing at ourselves and saying "GOOD!".



So you agree with Lwerd? The church was being self-righteous?
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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7/20/2009 2:41:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 8:57:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Let ME enlighten you: This is garden variety SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
WHENEVER we point the finger at someone and say "BAD!" we are REALLY only pointing at ourselves and saying "GOOD!".

Does this apply to you chastising the Lwerd for her self-righteousness? Seems we have a vicious circle here...

NOW, to add the MURDER of a completely INNOCENT unborn CHILD on top of the tragedy of rape/abuse is only making an intolerable situation even WORSE.
As for the whole 'ex-communication' thing it's an unbiblical nonsense like most of catholic churchs views.

You do realize that by this logic of making things worse, in cases where the mother and child will BOTH die (as is usually the case in such early-life pregnancies), abortion becomes a moral imperative?

The problem with this situation and other abortion situations of this type is that the reprobation of abortion simply boils down to not killing one person now so that two can die later. That certainly sounds like a plan to me... let's not kill one.... why kill one when we can kill two!!!

</sarcasm>
Achidnagar
Posts: 12
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7/20/2009 2:46:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If the abortion was not the girl's decision, then she obviously shouldn't suffer for it. Pro-life arguments are generally based on the valuing of life over a woman's convenience. When it is a choice between losing two lives and possibly losing three lives, the church should at the very least be understanding, if not supportive of the abortion. What the church needs to consider is the intent behind the rules as well as the rules themselves. Whoever made the initial rule was trying to protect children, not to harm them. Just as American laws are used and interpreted based upon the constitution, all rules made by churches should be used and interpreted based on the Bible and its message. Since wrongful ex-communication of someone who has already suffered seems disgustingly un-Christlike, the church has obviously failed in the use and nature of its rules.
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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7/20/2009 3:25:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 8:40:01 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Sure she could still have her faith, but after this ordeal, would YOU?

I'll add this to the list of reasons I have for ignoring the decrees of the Catholic church.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/20/2009 5:11:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 8:57:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
James4:7
THERFORE
s
u
b
m
i
t
to God
r
e
s
i
s
t
the devil
a
n
d
he will flee from you.


That was creative.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/20/2009 5:57:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The Church made the right decision:
It is screwing itself over.

But it'll change its stance on abortion soon enough. Just like how it changed its stance on round earth. And heliocentricity. And evolution. And Semitism. Blah blah blah blah.....
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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7/21/2009 10:28:42 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
A personal experience has led me to find the Catholic Church (My former church) not tolerant or accepting.

So me and my friends were innocently playing next to a church and school (It is a very good place to play Tip the Can) and it was narrowed down between me and my friend. We had stare off and as I outran him, the priest noticed us. My friend then shouted "He's an athiest!" At which point the priest told us, basically, to go away.

Now, this shows the priest was not tolerant or accepting of someone of a different religion. When I was younger (With my sister and her friends older than my current age), I played there many a time without incident during the summer.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Achidnagar
Posts: 12
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7/21/2009 2:06:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Several people are talking about Christian tolerance in this debate, but Christianity isn't really about tolerance. Jesus said no one goes to the Father except through Him. Jesus is the only way. All evangelism starts with the assumption that other peoples' beliefs are wrong. By trying to change their beliefs and make them Christians, you are being intolerant of their beliefs. Yes, Christians should be loving and compassionate, they should be respectful and tolerant of all races and cultures, but tolerance regarding people's spiritual means not giving them the opportunity for salvation.
demosthenes_1
Posts: 1
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7/21/2009 7:34:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I am not a religious person. I am also not an atheist. And so i say this from a relatively unbiased standpoint. I believe a religion should be a mentality, rather than a set of rules. I believe it should teach ideas such as love, and intolerance of evil, rather mundane things such as a list of prayers to say every night. Such mundane things are there to provide a sense of security for the followers of the religion, a sense that God is in their every day lives. Now how that ties into this is, the no abortion absolute taught by the Catholic Church falls into a rather ambiguous place. It is as much a mundane rule as it is a belief that you are killing a human being. And so, being such a difficult to label decision of the Catholic Church, i am of the opinion that it is an issue that MUST be resolved on a case by case basis, and in this case, with a nine year carrying twins, and in all likelihood they will all die, abortion was truly her only option, or the only option of the people who loved her and made the decision for her.
Lifeisgood
Posts: 295
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7/21/2009 8:11:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 8:40:01 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Back in March, news spread about this 9 year old girl in Brazil who was raped and subsequently impregnated by her step-father with twins. The decision was made for her to have an abortion. Almost immediately, the head clergy in her diocese ex-communicated her, as abortion is considered a mortal sin and that is the usual punishment for anyone who has one. Recently, Pope Benedict XVI issued a statement where he once again backed up the clergy's decision to excommunicate her immediately.

Ugh. What a horrible story. Everything went wrong there. Horrible circumstance, limited options, questionable decision, and a poor reaction.

The Catholic Church made a bad move in excommunicating her; that much is certain. Forgiveness and understanding would have been a much better response. The girl certainly needed it.

Again, I am reminded of what a great place our world is shaping up to be.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
KRFournier
Posts: 690
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7/21/2009 10:32:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What a sad story. I can spend all day thinking of an academic response to this, but when I imagine my daughter in the same predicament, I cannot say with any certainty what I would do.

Imagine if the church, instead of kicking the poor girl out of Heaven (essentially), they pooled their massive amounts of cash and did everything they could to help the girl recover medically, psychologically, and in terms of justice. Can any Christian honestly say that Jesus would have sent this girl away? Really?

Such is the tragedy of legalism in the Church.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/22/2009 8:08:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/20/2009 2:41:45 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 7/20/2009 8:57:37 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Let ME enlighten you: This is garden variety SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
WHENEVER we point the finger at someone and say "BAD!" we are REALLY only pointing at ourselves and saying "GOOD!".

Does this apply to you chastising the Lwerd for her self-righteousness? Seems we have a vicious circle here...

*JCMT re-enters the fray with a pertinent question*

It doesn't because I have already dealt with the my unrighteousness: I have 'owned up' to the fact that I have nothing remotely worthwhile of myself (nonA) and so have invited Christ (A) to live in my heart and so am now righteous. (A)

NOW, to add the MURDER of a completely INNOCENT unborn CHILD on top of the tragedy of rape/abuse is only making an intolerable situation even WORSE.
As for the whole 'ex-communication' thing it's an unbiblical nonsense like most of catholic churchs views.

You do realize that by this logic of making things worse, in cases where the mother and child will BOTH die (as is usually the case in such early-life pregnancies), abortion becomes a moral imperative?

"usually the case"? Do you have any hard data to back this up?
Abortion (the MURDER of an innocent unborn CHILD) is NEVER moral NOR imperitive.

The problem with this situation and other abortion situations of this type is that the reprobation of abortion simply boils down to not killing one person now so that two can die later. That certainly sounds like a plan to me... let's not kill one.... why kill one when we can kill two!!!

</sarcasm>

*lowest form of wit:inaprobiate subject matter*

Romans1:22
P
R
O
F
E
S
S
I
N
G
to be wise
T
H
E
Y
became fools.
The Cross.. the Cross.
AnimeFanTony
Posts: 1,129
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7/24/2009 7:38:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yea I'm just posting to be last.
Ownership of this account has been transferred from JCMT to I-am-a-panda.
Updates of the next JCMT puppet account pending.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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7/24/2009 2:35:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/24/2009 7:38:45 AM, AnimeFanTony wrote:
Yea I'm just posting to be last.

Joshua1:9
Have I not commanded DATCMOTO?
B
E
strong and of good courage; do
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O
T
be afraid,
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O
R
be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with DATCMOTO
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you go.
The Cross.. the Cross.