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The Prophets in the Bible Pray like Muslims

Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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4/12/2012 5:03:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
When looks at how today's Christians prayed and compare it to the way the prophets in the Bible prayed, there is a difference. However if we look at the way today's muslims pray compared to how the prophets of the Bible pray we see a huge correspondence.

==Gospel of Matthew Chapter 26 Verse 39==
"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

==Book of 2 Chronicles Chapter 7 Verse 3==
"And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever."

==Book of 1 Chronicles Chapter 29 Verse 20==
"And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."

==Book of Joshua Chapter 5 Verse 14==
"And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"

==Book of Daniel Chapter 9 Verse 3==
"And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:"

==Book of Genesis Chapter 24 Verse 48==
"And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son."

==Book of Isaiah Chapter 45 Verse 23==
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

All the verses from the King James Bible can be found here: http://kingjamesbible.com...
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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4/12/2012 8:18:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
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Flame
Posts: 43
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4/13/2012 6:56:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/12/2012 8:18:29 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
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| !!!!!BUMP!!!! |||""'|""\__,_
| _____________ l||__|__|__| )
|(@)@) |(@)(@)**|(@)
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You do know that the prophet Jeremiah in the book of lamentations made it clear that God could careless about external religious practices if the person's heart is far away from him, right? He may have prescribed specific practices in the Old Testament, however, He never disassociated it from the person's heart and certainly did not emphasized the external over the worshiper's heart. The prophet Samuel was corrected by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Lord looks at the heart. I really do not see why the positions of prayer really matters. Rather, the object of the prayer.
Flame
Posts: 43
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4/13/2012 7:17:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/12/2012 5:03:32 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
When looks at how today's Christians prayed and compare it to the way the prophets in the Bible prayed, there is a difference. However if we look at the way today's muslims pray compared to how the prophets of the Bible pray we see a huge correspondence.


Questions: What are the rules of prayer, that is, what is the liturgy of prayer prescribed by the Qu'ran?
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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4/15/2012 2:21:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 6:56:56 AM, Flame wrote:

You do know that the prophet Jeremiah in the book of lamentations made it clear that God could careless about external religious practices if the person's heart is far away from him, right? He may have prescribed specific practices in the Old Testament, however, He never disassociated it from the person's heart and certainly did not emphasized the external over the worshiper's heart. The prophet Samuel was corrected by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Lord looks at the heart. I really do not see why the positions of prayer really matters. Rather, the object of the prayer.

Yeah that makes sense. If someone is praying and his heart is far away from God then his prayer isn't very valuable. However what about if the person's heart is close to God and he prays. Prayer constantly reminds you of God and allows you to recheck and review yourself every time you stand in prayer. You also ask forgiveness and draw closer to God since you are in constant remembrance of him. the positions of prayer matter a lot because you should pray as the prophets prayed. The reason is because they were the closest men to God so you should imitate them especially in acts of worship. The way Muslims pray is how the Prophet Muhammad prayed because he told us to pray as we saw him pray. the Quran tells to pray numerous times. Is it a coincidence that the way Prophet Muhammad prayed (peace and blessings be upon him) lines up and corresponds with the way the other prophets prayed?
Flame
Posts: 43
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4/15/2012 10:50:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 2:21:21 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 4/13/2012 6:56:56 AM, Flame wrote:

You do know that the prophet Jeremiah in the book of lamentations made it clear that God could careless about external religious practices if the person's heart is far away from him, right? He may have prescribed specific practices in the Old Testament, however, He never disassociated it from the person's heart and certainly did not emphasized the external over the worshiper's heart. The prophet Samuel was corrected by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Lord looks at the heart. I really do not see why the positions of prayer really matters. Rather, the object of the prayer.

Yeah that makes sense. If someone is praying and his heart is far away from God then his prayer isn't very valuable. However what about if the person's heart is close to God and he prays. Prayer constantly reminds you of God and allows you to recheck and review yourself every time you stand in prayer. You also ask forgiveness and draw closer to God since you are in constant remembrance of him. the positions of prayer matter a lot because you should pray as the prophets prayed. The reason is because they were the closest men to God so you should imitate them especially in acts of worship. The way Muslims pray is how the Prophet Muhammad prayed because he told us to pray as we saw him pray. the Quran tells to pray numerous times. Is it a coincidence that the way Prophet Muhammad prayed (peace and blessings be upon him) lines up and corresponds with the way the other prophets prayed?

"Yeah that makes sense. If someone is praying and his heart is far away from God then his prayer isn't very valuable. "

-Quite so.

"However what about if the person's heart is close to God and he prays."

-According to the Bible, "The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. (James 5:16 NASB). Of course, it is within the context of confession sins and and forgiveness (Vs. 15-17). 1 Yes, "recheck and review yourself every time you stand in prayer." It is exactly what Jesus of Nazareth thought His disciples when they asked Him to teach them to pray in the Gospel of Luke 11:4, "And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us." 2 Indeed,
"You also ask forgiveness," but Jesus of Nazareth, whom you say is also a prophet, also taught to forgive others as well not just for one selves only. However, one can not just trust our our own examination as far as "recheck and review yourself" alone. According to the Bible, one must invite the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the true examiner of our hearts. King David said this, "Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts." 3 It only makes sense since again David said to his son Solomon concerning the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, ""As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever." 4 Hence, you can not truly believe that you yourself can give an accurate search of your own heart and intent of your own thoughts accurately on your own can you? Or for that matter, better than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?

"draw closer to God since you are in constant remembrance of him."

-Quite so. That is the essence of prayer. James said this "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded." 5

1 http://www.biblegateway.com...
2 http://www.biblegateway.com...
3 http://www.biblegateway.com...
4 http://www.biblegateway.com...

5 http://www.biblegateway.com...
Flame
Posts: 43
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4/15/2012 11:56:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 2:21:21 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 4/13/2012 6:56:56 AM, Flame wrote:

You do know that the prophet Jeremiah in the book of lamentations made it clear that God could careless about external religious practices if the person's heart is far away from him, right? He may have prescribed specific practices in the Old Testament, however, He never disassociated it from the person's heart and certainly did not emphasized the external over the worshiper's heart. The prophet Samuel was corrected by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Lord looks at the heart. I really do not see why the positions of prayer really matters. Rather, the object of the prayer.

Yeah that makes sense. If someone is praying and his heart is far away from God then his prayer isn't very valuable. However what about if the person's heart is close to God and he prays. Prayer constantly reminds you of God and allows you to recheck and review yourself every time you stand in prayer. You also ask forgiveness and draw closer to God since you are in constant remembrance of him. the positions of prayer matter a lot because you should pray as the prophets prayed. The reason is because they were the closest men to God so you should imitate them especially in acts of worship. The way Muslims pray is how the Prophet Muhammad prayed because he told us to pray as we saw him pray. the Quran tells to pray numerous times. Is it a coincidence that the way Prophet Muhammad prayed (peace and blessings be upon him) lines up and corresponds with the way the other prophets prayed?

"he positions of prayer matter a lot because you should pray as the prophets prayed. The reason is because they were the closest men to God so you should imitate them especially in acts of worship."

-The prophets indeed had an intimate relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. However, you yourself said the essence of prayer was to draw to God, did you not? Does that mean God shows favoritism to His children? Or that the prophets are professional prayer elites? Again, does that mean that with the prophets He gives full access to His throne, where as the rest are restricted as to how close they can get to Him? With the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the case, "Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." 1 The position of the heart is far more noble than the position of the body. Although the physical prayer positions in itself is not wrong. However, to emphasize the physical positions as a mandate to make prayer valuable? Absurd. Again, I can not see what difference a position one takes to pray. Examples of prophets are not in itself mandates. It is simply that, examples not commands.

1 http://www.biblegateway.com...

"The way Muslims pray is how the Prophet Muhammad prayed because he told us to pray as we saw him pray. the Quran tells to pray numerous times."

That is one of the difference between Biblical Christianity and Islam. Jesus of Nazareth said this, "Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up." 2 According to the Christian worldview, prayer is not restricted to the physical positions of the Christian when they pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through the Messiah Jesus. Prayer is "Practicing the Presence of God" through the day, as you yourself said it is "remembering God." Praying always is always "remembering God" not only five times a day or when a person decide to use a physical position. Numbers means nothing in itself. When one decides to use a physical position, it is not a starting or ending point of prayer, it is simply the continuing of prayer. The Christian is always in God's presence whether he or she use a physical position or not.

2 http://www.biblegateway.com...

Is it a coincidence that the way Prophet Muhammad prayed (peace and blessings be upon him) lines up and corresponds with the way the other prophets prayed?

-Again, the position of prayer does not in it add or take value from prayer. Rather, the condition of the heart of the prayer (individual).
Flame
Posts: 43
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4/16/2012 12:16:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 2:21:21 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 4/13/2012 6:56:56 AM, Flame wrote:

You do know that the prophet Jeremiah in the book of lamentations made it clear that God could careless about external religious practices if the person's heart is far away from him, right? He may have prescribed specific practices in the Old Testament, however, He never disassociated it from the person's heart and certainly did not emphasized the external over the worshiper's heart. The prophet Samuel was corrected by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Lord looks at the heart. I really do not see why the positions of prayer really matters. Rather, the object of the prayer.

Yeah that makes sense. If someone is praying and his heart is far away from God then his prayer isn't very valuable. However what about if the person's heart is close to God and he prays. Prayer constantly reminds you of God and allows you to recheck and review yourself every time you stand in prayer. You also ask forgiveness and draw closer to God since you are in constant remembrance of him. the positions of prayer matter a lot because you should pray as the prophets prayed. The reason is because they were the closest men to God so you should imitate them especially in acts of worship. The way Muslims pray is how the Prophet Muhammad prayed because he told us to pray as we saw him pray. the Quran tells to pray numerous times. Is it a coincidence that the way Prophet Muhammad prayed (peace and blessings be upon him) lines up and corresponds with the way the other prophets prayed?

Questions: What are the rules of prayer, that is, what is the liturgy of prayer prescribed by the Qu'ran?
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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4/16/2012 9:21:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 6:56:56 AM, Flame wrote:
At 4/12/2012 8:18:29 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
====
=====
|--------------------------||____
| !!!!!BUMP!!!! |||""'|""\__,_
| _____________ l||__|__|__| )
|(@)@) |(@)(@)**|(@)
====
=====
You do know that the prophet Jeremiah in the book of lamentations made it clear that God could careless about external religious practices if the person's heart is far away from him, right? He may have prescribed specific practices in the Old Testament, however, He never disassociated it from the person's heart and certainly did not emphasized the external over the worshiper's heart. The prophet Samuel was corrected by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Lord looks at the heart. I really do not see why the positions of prayer really matters. Rather, the object of the prayer.

exactly what he said ^^

One must ask who is the prayer "for" . . . God or man

God doesn't need your prayer, He doesn't need your praise, He doesn't need your obedience. He is God after all. Hence whether I say a prayer on my way to work in my car or at night before I go to bed, claiming that one needs a mat to do so is just foolishness. Humility is understandable, which is, I believe, why Muslims pray the way they do, however, actions really mean little to God.

Compare it to what Jesus taught about the Sabbath.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/16/2012 9:46:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There's god for you. Prayer is just psychological conditioning, and like any psychological conditioning, provided enough reinforcement and the mind makes links and attributes happenings to the prayer.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/16/2012 11:17:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The reason for physical prayer is that Muslims have to be disciplined and reminded of God. Without prayer from the heart, the physical prayer does not count. But to make Muslims more reminded of God and inclined to do good, the physical prayer is also necessary. There's a good reason why Muslims are FAR more religious and God-believing than Christians. Whereas Muslims are taught to be reminded of God in several ways, Christians just make up the excuse that "the heart is enough." It is, but it's not enough to be reminded of God, to remind others of God, and to discipline yourself.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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4/16/2012 9:46:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Flame, you're pretty intelligent but what I'm basically saying is what Mirza just said. Obligatory prayers keep one in remembrance and obedience to God more then prayers that one doesn't really even have to do. If one doesn't pray for a month or a year that will make him forget God. Also of course God doesn't need our prayers, it is us that needs the prayer so we are upright, and have a connection with God.
Flame
Posts: 43
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4/17/2012 12:35:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 11:17:26 AM, Mirza wrote:
The reason for physical prayer is that Muslims have to be disciplined and reminded of God. Without prayer from the heart, the physical prayer does not count. But to make Muslims more reminded of God and inclined to do good, the physical prayer is also necessary. There's a good reason why Muslims are FAR more religious and God-believing than Christians. Whereas Muslims are taught to be reminded of God in several ways, Christians just make up the excuse that "the heart is enough." It is, but it's not enough to be reminded of God, to remind others of God, and to discipline yourself.

-Postures or prayer positions as Rodriguez points out, "....are important only to the extent that they are the external expression of reverence, inner feelings, and commitments to the Lord." 1 It's all it is, external expressions and not the prayers of the worshiper itself. Secondly, I have also mentioned that in themselves, they are not wrong. Kneeling, standing, prostration, lying down on bed, sitting down, are but a few physical positions clearly used in the Bible. I agree with Ahmed.M
and with you Mizra that such practices were done. Only that I do not agree that it was done in the prescribed Islamic liturgy for prayer. What I am trying to say is what Rodriguez states, "in the Bible there was not a particular posture in which worshippers were required to pray. Hence, we find in Scripture a diversity of options and possibilities. Any attempt to select one as superior and indispensable over the others lacks biblical support." 2 Or if the individual decides to not use any prayer positions. Secondly, there are no support from the Bible that there are "good reasons" that the use of or lack of physical positions of prayer makes a Christian less "religious" or "less God believing." According to Jesus, there are three evidences to know whether the individual is indeed one of His disciples: The principle of continuing in His teachings: obedience, 3 the love principle: love one another, 4 and the fruit principle: in character and service. 5 No, no. According to the Christian worldview, "we find in Scripture a diversity of options and possibilities." Thus, it is not correct to state that the Christian worldview "make up the excuse that "the heart is enough." I do not know any Christian theist that would suggest that positions of prayers are not supported by the Bible, or that it is not helpful to focus on God in prayers to some extant. Granted, that self-discipline is needed as far as the Christian walk is concern, for Paul, the Apostle made this statement, "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize." 5 The issue is that it is not if there is evidence for physical positions of prayer. But that it is not supported by the Bible for the Christian to be obligated to have a rigid set of rules prescribed for prayer which include how many times to pray per day and what positions of prayer of choice to take. Where as a Muslim, you do. To the Christian, prayer is not a rigid duty, a communication form of an intimate relationship with the God of the Bible.

1 http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org...
2 Ibid
3 http://www.biblegateway.com...
4 http://www.biblegateway.com...
5 http://www.biblegateway.com...
6 http://www.biblegateway.com...
Flame
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4/17/2012 12:52:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 9:46:17 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
Flame, you're pretty intelligent but what I'm basically saying is what Mirza just said. Obligatory prayers keep one in remembrance and obedience to God more then prayers that one doesn't really even have to do. If one doesn't pray for a month or a year that will make him forget God. Also of course God doesn't need our prayers, it is us that needs the prayer so we are upright, and have a connection with God.

"Flame, you're pretty intelligent but what I'm basically saying is what Mirza just said."

- Ty, likewise.

"Obligatory prayers keep one in remembrance and obedience to God more then prayers that one doesn't really even have to do."

-Quite so. There is no doubt that a genuine and heartfelt prayer keeps one in remembrance of God.

" If one doesn't pray for a month or a year that will make him forget God."

-I agree that a prayer-less life is indeed forgetting God and also as Yancey points out, "Prayer exposes....my own true state of fragile dependence." 1

"Also of course God doesn't need our prayers, it is us that needs the prayer so we are upright, and have a connection with God."

Quite so, but you might be referring to "gr33k_fr33k5." :P

1 Yancey, Philip "Prayer: Does it Make a Difference?," p.17
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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4/17/2012 5:34:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 11:17:26 AM, Mirza wrote:
The reason for physical prayer is that Muslims have to be disciplined and reminded of God. Without prayer from the heart, the physical prayer does not count. But to make Muslims more reminded of God and inclined to do good, the physical prayer is also necessary. There's a good reason why Muslims are FAR more religious and God-believing than Christians. Whereas Muslims are taught to be reminded of God in several ways, Christians just make up the excuse that "the heart is enough." It is, but it's not enough to be reminded of God, to remind others of God, and to discipline yourself.

just no. The truth is both religions have their zealots and their slackers. To make a generality about Christians like that is ridiculous.

Also, Christianity being an older religion, is out of the "do as we say or die" phase that many Middle Eastern Countries forcing the practice of Islamic tradition are still in.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
Gileandos
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4/19/2012 9:07:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree with everything Flame has written and I would add another dimension to address the implications of your first post as you appear to be stating 'due to a certain position of prayer, the muslim religion is more accurate, or at least potentially'.

Jews traditionally prayed with their hands and eyes lifted up to heaven, during times of worship and praise.
This includes the prophets. In context, the OT whenever the prophets were face down it was due to a lamentation of extreme duress, otherwise daily prayers were face toward heaven.

***
A few examples:
- 1 Kings 8:54 NIV
Solomon is on his knees with arms raised up to heaven to receive God's blessing after hours of praising God.

- Psalms 63:4 NIV
The Psalmist is calling out the concept of hands being raised toward heaven. (Eyes as well.)
- The pslams again - Ps 123:1 (NIV) I lift up my eyes to you, to you whose throne is in heaven

- 1 Tim 2:1,8
It is echoed here by Paul calling us to lift 'holy hands' to the Lord.

This is why you see Christians raising their hands to God when we praise and worship God.

and Jesus here lifting his eyes toward heaven.
Jesus' Prayer lifting His eyes to Heaven.
http://bible.cc...

We see the standing prayer of the Jews (Like the Sunni Bakri? I think, but with eyes toward heaven)
Jewish Prayer from the Talmud:
Talmud says:
"and he places his hands clasped upon his heart,the right hand over
the left hand;and stands as a servant before His Master-in awe,reverence
and fear,and he should not place his hands upon his sides"
(Hilkoth Tafilla 5:4)

Also the Shemah is the Jewish ritual prayer very similiar to muslim prayers (Imagine that the muhummad took a few 'lessons' from the Jews)

See Video.

This prayer is one of kneeling and placing head to the floor as the Muslims do.

***

All of this is clear there are quite a few prayer positions and Christians gather in the position of worship every Sunday praising God with our hands and heads lifted toward God in Heaven.

We kneel with our heads bowed when we confess our sins, lament or petition God.

Hope this insight helps to show that Muslims are not 'more like' the OT prophets due to a single prayer 'style'.
yoda878
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4/20/2012 8:30:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/12/2012 5:03:32 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
When looks at how today's Christians prayed and compare it to the way the prophets in the Bible prayed, there is a difference. However if we look at the way today's muslims pray compared to how the prophets of the Bible pray we see a huge correspondence.

==Gospel of Matthew Chapter 26 Verse 39==
"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

==Book of 2 Chronicles Chapter 7 Verse 3==
"And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever."

==Book of 1 Chronicles Chapter 29 Verse 20==
"And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king."

==Book of Joshua Chapter 5 Verse 14==
"And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"

==Book of Daniel Chapter 9 Verse 3==
"And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:"

==Book of Genesis Chapter 24 Verse 48==
"And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son."

==Book of Isaiah Chapter 45 Verse 23==
"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

All the verses from the King James Bible can be found here: http://kingjamesbible.com...



So you are making this comparison, are you thinking that they were talking to God and that they had it right and we now have it wrong? And if you are saying that, are you in fact saying they talked with God? If so then you could not deny the Bible as the word of the almighty GOD.
Me