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Punishment does not make sense

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

Where God creates beings with preordained states of irrationality, he cannot punish them when that feature manifests in evil.

Thoughts?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/13/2012 7:08:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Punishment can only make sense or not make sense depending on a certain arbitrary standard you are using.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

We do have a choice whether we do good or evil, but the good choices are influenced by God.


Where God creates beings with preordained states of irrationality, he cannot punish them when that feature manifests in evil.


No one's rationality is preordained, it is forknown.

Difference: God predestines our actions/thoughts/character VS God knows them in advance.

Punishment is still justified.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/13/2012 7:40:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

We do have a choice whether we do good or evil, but the good choices are influenced by God.


Where God creates beings with preordained states of irrationality, he cannot punish them when that feature manifests in evil.


No one's rationality is preordained, it is forknown.

Difference: God predestines our actions/thoughts/character VS God knows them in advance.

Punishment is still justified.

If god knows it will happen then that proves that there is no other way it could have happened. If we truly have freewill, then our actions will be unknowable to all until the point at which we decide them. If God knows our actions before they are made, then that suggests that the action is inevitable. And if the action is inevitable, then it isn't the person's fault.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/13/2012 7:41:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

Isn't it the serpent who gave us the knowledge of Good and Evil? ;)
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/13/2012 7:44:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:41:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

Isn't it the serpent who gave us the knowledge of Good and Evil? ;)

I thought it was that thing someone made up to legitimise beating people.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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4/13/2012 8:01:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:40:47 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

We do have a choice whether we do good or evil, but the good choices are influenced by God.


Where God creates beings with preordained states of irrationality, he cannot punish them when that feature manifests in evil.


No one's rationality is preordained, it is forknown.

Difference: God predestines our actions/thoughts/character VS God knows them in advance.

Punishment is still justified.

If god knows it will happen then that proves that there is no other way it could have happened.

Thats correct, why do you have trouble with this?

If we truly have freewill, then our actions will be unknowable to all until the point at which we decide them.

You're gonna need to explain why. As i see it, his knowing us better then we do, being outside of time, therefore able to view the begining and end simultaneously , have no bearing on whether or not we make the desicions our selves.

If God knows our actions before they are made, then that suggests that the action is inevitable. And if the action is inevitable, then it isn't the person's fault.


How so?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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4/13/2012 8:10:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 8:01:04 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:40:47 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

We do have a choice whether we do good or evil, but the good choices are influenced by God.


Where God creates beings with preordained states of irrationality, he cannot punish them when that feature manifests in evil.


No one's rationality is preordained, it is forknown.

Difference: God predestines our actions/thoughts/character VS God knows them in advance.

Punishment is still justified.

If god knows it will happen then that proves that there is no other way it could have happened.

Thats correct, why do you have trouble with this?

If we truly have freewill, then our actions will be unknowable to all until the point at which we decide them.

You're gonna need to explain why. As i see it, his knowing us better then we do, being outside of time, therefore able to view the begining and end simultaneously , have no bearing on whether or not we make the desicions our selves.

In the same way experience informs our actions, free will informs our actions. If God knows how free will affects our actions, it's not really a random choice anymore, but dependent on what God knows. We necessarily act dependent on God's knowledge.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/13/2012 8:23:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 4/13/2012 7:01:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
If all human beings were perfectly rational, then they would never do anything evil. The fact that man may propagate evil shows that he is irrational. You say man has a choice as to whether he will do good or evil. But whatever that choice may be is a reflection of his rationality. Rationality is intrinsic, so the vice or virtue of one's character must be as well.

You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.

We do have a choice whether we do good or evil, but the good choices are influenced by God.


Where God creates beings with preordained states of irrationality, he cannot punish them when that feature manifests in evil.


No one's rationality is preordained, it is forknown.

Difference: God predestines our actions/thoughts/character VS God knows them in advance.

Punishment is still justified.

"You are correct, however God has made it plain to see that which is Good, and which is Evil; All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us."


All evil comes from God and all Good comes from man. Since God is evil, he made it appear he was good in scripture to deceive. He allows good to show you what your a missing to make it harsher when bad things happen to you... You see how easy it is to assert things without valid reasoning or support?

"We do have a choice whether we do good or evil, but the good choices are influenced by God. "

Then the choice to do good wasn't really free then if God had to influence it.

"No one's rationality is preordained, it is forknown."

Rationality is dependent the specific processes that go on in your brain, we have no choice what brain we are born with, so your argument fails.

"Punishment is still justified."

It's justified to keep a person who commits an unethical act away from the rest of society in order not to hinder it, but not to torture him (especially for eternity).
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/13/2012 8:30:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
All Good comes from him as it is intrinsic to Him, and all Evil comes from us.
Me: Story book says no! e.g. -

. . . . when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, . . . . (1 Sam. 16:16) KJV Story book

. . . . the [ evil ] spirit from God was upon Saul . . . . (1 Sam. 16:23) KJV Story book

. . . . they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: . . . . (Job 42:11) KJV Story book

BTW: Story book god is also a Satan -

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah". (2 Samuel 24: 1) KJV story book

Comparing this parallel account of the same incident we read: -

And Satan stood up against Israel, , , , (1 Chron. 21: 1) KJV story book

Later in story book 1 Chron. 21 we read: -

And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. {And...: Heb. And it was evil in the eyes of the LORD concerning this thing} 8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. (1 Chron. 21: 7 - 8) KJV story book

So the ADVERSARY = Satan (i.e. Satan is a Hebrew Word - Metaphor) that was against Israel / smote Israel - was definitely not a naughty spirit angel supernatural being (which don't literally exist in or out of the story book pages) but was story book god itself!

At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
We do have a choice whether we do good or evil,
Then why do you keep freely choosing to be a sinner?

At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
but the good choices are influenced by God.
Proven god aka Satan, LOL!

At 4/13/2012 7:36:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Punishment is still justified.
That's why your godman was crucified, as a punishment for its sins!