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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today? Why don't the leaders of them gather some irrefutable proof of their religion's supernatural powers that can be independently verified, so they can win the James Randi 1 million dollar challenge? This would be a win-win-win-win: a religion would finally have proof for some of its claims, the religion will win $1,000,000 to benefit its cause, people will find out the one true religion, and James Randi will have finally found a genuine paranormal/supernatural power!

http://www.randi.org...
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Wallstreetatheist
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4/15/2012 12:01:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 11:49:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There was never a money-for-proof challenge that meant anything.

[SEE: http://www.randi.org...]
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KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today? Why don't the leaders of them gather some irrefutable proof of their religion's supernatural powers that can be independently verified, so they can win the James Randi 1 million dollar challenge? This would be a win-win-win-win: a religion would finally have proof for some of its claims, the religion will win $1,000,000 to benefit its cause, people will find out the one true religion, and James Randi will have finally found a genuine paranormal/supernatural power!

http://www.randi.org...

There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/15/2012 12:24:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

Well, if you find any evidence for your religion some day, you have $1,000,000 waiting for you. Since no religion has any evidence for supernatural claims, do you think it is safe to say that they are all of the same truth value, 0?
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/15/2012 12:24:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 12:01:43 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/14/2012 11:49:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There was never a money-for-proof challenge that meant anything.

[SEE: http://www.randi.org...]

Yeah, I know. My point still stands. It happens all the time. They say they will give money if someone can "prove" something. They never give away the money. So their enemies are discredited, just like they wanted.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/15/2012 12:31:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 12:24:51 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

Well, if you find any evidence for your religion some day, you have $1,000,000 waiting for you. Since no religion has any evidence for supernatural claims, do you think it is safe to say that they are all of the same truth value, 0?

Not at all. I believe the strongest evidence points toward Christianity. I wouldn't call it irrefutable, since there are those who will always argue against it. Plus, when you deal with philosophy you're often dealing with things on a metaphysical level, which can't really be proven in the natural realm. The Resurrection of Christ is a historically valid event. The evidence points toward it happening. But there are still those who try to find alternate explanations to fit the evidence.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/15/2012 12:44:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 12:24:54 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/15/2012 12:01:43 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/14/2012 11:49:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There was never a money-for-proof challenge that meant anything.

[SEE: http://www.randi.org...]

Yeah, I know. My point still stands. It happens all the time. They say they will give money if someone can "prove" something. They never give away the money. So their enemies are discredited, just like they wanted.
Show us the evidence James Randi has done as you allege?

I believe you are telling porky pies because you have no credibility and James Randi would expose those claims more than they already are!
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/15/2012 2:58:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today? Why don't the leaders of them gather some irrefutable proof of their religion's supernatural powers that can be independently verified, so they can win the James Randi 1 million dollar challenge? This would be a win-win-win-win: a religion would finally have proof for some of its claims, the religion will win $1,000,000 to benefit its cause, people will find out the one true religion, and James Randi will have finally found a genuine paranormal/supernatural power!

http://www.randi.org...

There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

Demonstrable claim =/= irrefutable proof for a religion.

You can always come up with some sort of excuse, including "OMG its Satan working through you". The James Randi challenge is addressing individual claims, not entire religions. For example, the claim of "I can heal someone with my hands and praying to Jesus". That is a single claim that is irrespective of the religion it belongs to, and that should be easily demonstrated to be true. It doesnt tell us what the source of it is, whether it truly is Jesus working through you, or some other supernatural force, and therefore is not a confirmation of your religion, but it is still a supernatural event that can be demonstrable.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/15/2012 2:59:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 2:58:30 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today? Why don't the leaders of them gather some irrefutable proof of their religion's supernatural powers that can be independently verified, so they can win the James Randi 1 million dollar challenge? This would be a win-win-win-win: a religion would finally have proof for some of its claims, the religion will win $1,000,000 to benefit its cause, people will find out the one true religion, and James Randi will have finally found a genuine paranormal/supernatural power!

http://www.randi.org...

There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

Demonstrable claim =/= irrefutable proof for a religion.

You can always come up with some sort of excuse, including "OMG its Satan working through you". The James Randi challenge is addressing individual claims, not entire religions. For example, the claim of "I can heal someone with my hands and praying to Jesus". That is a single claim that is irrespective of the religion it belongs to, and that should be easily demonstrated to be true. It doesnt tell us what the source of it is, whether it truly is Jesus working through you, or some other supernatural force, and therefore is not a confirmation of your religion, but it is still a supernatural event that can be demonstrable.

Let me sum it up this way.

Its not about proving or disproving religion, its about proving individual claims made on behalf of religion.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/15/2012 3:35:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today?

Theres clear evidence for Buddhism. It's doctrines can either be confirmed philosophically or empirically.

Why don't the leaders of them gather some irrefutable proof of their religion's supernatural powers that can be independently verified, so they can win the James Randi 1 million dollar challenge?

The Dalai Lama could care less about 1 million dollars.

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.
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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Composer
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4/15/2012 3:39:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 12:31:19 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
Not at all. I believe the strongest evidence points toward Christianity.
Let's examine it?

At 4/15/2012 12:31:19 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
The Resurrection of Christ is a historically valid event. The evidence points toward it happening.
Let's examine it?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/15/2012 1:44:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Illusionist and magician, Dan White, traveled to Nepal to examine the "supernatural" feats of the Hindu yogis and the Buddhist monks. This is a man who has the knowledge of how to do such things and knows all the tricks. Yet, at the end, he met up with a Buddhist monk from the Nepal mountains who could levitate while meditating. He couldn't debunk it after witnessing it up close, first hand and on camera.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/15/2012 2:07:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 3:39:56 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/15/2012 12:31:19 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
Not at all. I believe the strongest evidence points toward Christianity.
Let's examine it?

At 4/15/2012 12:31:19 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
The Resurrection of Christ is a historically valid event. The evidence points toward it happening.
Let's examine it?

Would you care to debate the historicity of the Resurrection in an actual debate? It's much preferable to me than debating on the forums.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/16/2012 1:53:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Bump... because I want DDO to get some exposure once the winner of the paranormal challenge goes on national television
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FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/16/2012 1:58:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have been in content with my share of spirits. Not feelings. Not glimpses. Conversations. And they've shown me a thing or two about how the world really works.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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4/16/2012 2:52:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 2:07:33 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
Would you care to debate the historicity of the Resurrection in an actual debate? It's much preferable to me than debating on the forums.
I would first need to know what you mean by ' Historicity? "

Is it e.g. Because this Fairy Tale & myth is written in a Story book called the bible that this allegedly counts as ' Historical evidence? '

Any how, before we go any further, let me know what you actually mean by 'historicity of the Resurrection?'.

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tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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4/16/2012 6:42:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 1:44:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Illusionist and magician, Dan White, traveled to Nepal to examine the "supernatural" feats of the Hindu yogis and the Buddhist monks. This is a man who has the knowledge of how to do such things and knows all the tricks. Yet, at the end, he met up with a Buddhist monk from the Nepal mountains who could levitate while meditating. He couldn't debunk it after witnessing it up close, first hand and on camera.



LOL
Damn... There we have it. PROOF that people can float with their mind powers. Don't you live in Vegas? I've seen Lance Burton do much better tricks under more difficult conditions. There's a frikkin' patchy curtain behind him..
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/16/2012 7:05:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 6:42:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 4/15/2012 1:44:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Illusionist and magician, Dan White, traveled to Nepal to examine the "supernatural" feats of the Hindu yogis and the Buddhist monks. This is a man who has the knowledge of how to do such things and knows all the tricks. Yet, at the end, he met up with a Buddhist monk from the Nepal mountains who could levitate while meditating. He couldn't debunk it after witnessing it up close, first hand and on camera.



LOL
Damn... There we have it. PROOF that people can float with their mind powers. Don't you live in Vegas? I've seen Lance Burton do much better tricks under more difficult conditions. There's a frikkin' patchy curtain behind him..

LOL, The Indian Levitation Trick?!?!?!

It's a shame Dan White has never heard of Google

http://www.geekfill.com...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/16/2012 8:27:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

You don't need proof of atheism. You don't have to prove that something doesn't exist, only that it exists. Atheism is the default after a lack of proof is evident.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/16/2012 8:30:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/15/2012 3:35:05 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today?

Theres clear evidence for Buddhism. It's doctrines can either be confirmed philosophically or empirically.

Buddhism is based on traditions, beliefs and practices. All of those things are obviously real. Whether the beliefs are true or not is what's in question. You can't empirically prove that the 8-fold path will lead to Enlightenment. At best you can say that Buddhist philosophies align with your own personal opinions.
President of DDO
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/16/2012 8:39:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 7:05:44 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 4/16/2012 6:42:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 4/15/2012 1:44:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Illusionist and magician, Dan White, traveled to Nepal to examine the "supernatural" feats of the Hindu yogis and the Buddhist monks. This is a man who has the knowledge of how to do such things and knows all the tricks. Yet, at the end, he met up with a Buddhist monk from the Nepal mountains who could levitate while meditating. He couldn't debunk it after witnessing it up close, first hand and on camera.



LOL
Damn... There we have it. PROOF that people can float with their mind powers. Don't you live in Vegas? I've seen Lance Burton do much better tricks under more difficult conditions. There's a frikkin' patchy curtain behind him..

LOL, The Indian Levitation Trick?!?!?!

It's a shame Dan White has never heard of Google

http://www.geekfill.com...

Also, there was never an attempt to "debunk" it. He watches the trick. Crouches down, and gives the camera an amazed look.

Seriously?

Geo, what follows is a completely serious, nonrhetorical question:

Based on the video, would you consider Dan White's actions a legitimate attempt to "debunk" the levitation trick?

Because, I don't. He watched it. That's it. Furthermore, he watched it from a conspicuously generous distance. He crouched down as if to see what was going on, but he never approached the guy (who was surrounded by candles, also to deter people from getting close).

At no point did he perform any sort of actual close-up inspection or any sort of physical inspection whatsoever. We don't even see the entire trick, because the video stops before he lowered back to the ground.

This trick is known, it's secrets are known, it is ages old, it is not special, it is not magic, it is a trick.

Penn and Teller used to have a show where they would try and guess how people performed magic tricks. Sometimes they were stumped. They, personally, interpret that as the sign of a good illusionist, in that they were able to keep the secret a secret. Do you interpret that as a sign that actual magic has been performed? Because it seems like it. Please be explicit about your stance here:

"If a magician can't, from pure visual inspection, see how a trick was done, then ACTUAL magic has been performed."
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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4/16/2012 8:44:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You know... levitating is actually kind of corny.

This is what happens when a mortal Indian man gets electrocuted: http://www.break.com...

However, this is what happens when one Indian man in particular is electrocuted:

Proof of God? Not necessarily.

But, it does kind of put this conversation in perspective. ^_^
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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4/16/2012 9:28:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 8:27:58 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

You don't need proof of atheism. You don't have to prove that something doesn't exist, only that it exists. Atheism is the default after a lack of proof is evident.

Atheism may not need proving, but the beliefs associated with it do.
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/16/2012 9:33:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is evidence that belief in occultism and following it's practices can provide humans with supernal powers.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/16/2012 9:57:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 2:52:26 AM, Composer wrote:
At 4/15/2012 2:07:33 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
Would you care to debate the historicity of the Resurrection in an actual debate? It's much preferable to me than debating on the forums.
I would first need to know what you mean by ' Historicity? "

Is it e.g. Because this Fairy Tale & myth is written in a Story book called the bible that this allegedly counts as ' Historical evidence? '

Any how, before we go any further, let me know what you actually mean by 'historicity of the Resurrection?'.

Composer

Well, you're obviously biased so I doubt you would debate with an open mind.

But no. I mean it was recorded by eyewitnesses (and close associates of eyewitnesses), and the event holds up to historical scrutiny. In fact, most scholars and historians agree on most of the facts regarding the resurrection (e.g. that there was a literal Jesus, that He was crucified on the cross, and that His tomb was empty).
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/16/2012 9:59:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 8:27:58 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

You don't need proof of atheism. You don't have to prove that something doesn't exist, only that it exists. Atheism is the default after a lack of proof is evident.

That's shifting the burden of proof. Why should I believe in Atheism if there's no proof for it? I have evidence for Theism so if you can't prove to me that Atheism is true, then why should I leave my faith?
gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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4/16/2012 10:12:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why would God break the laws of physics he himself made, just to prove his existence to us? Theists claim that God was behind the formation of earth, of humans. That, for instance, gravitation is because the force of nation guides it to.

You can't PROVE his existence irrefutably. There will always be speculation.
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/16/2012 10:35:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/14/2012 11:30:44 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
You know how there's no clear evidence for any religions in existence today? Why don't the leaders of them gather some irrefutable proof of their religion's supernatural powers that can be independently verified, so they can win the James Randi 1 million dollar challenge? This would be a win-win-win-win: a religion would finally have proof for some of its claims, the religion will win $1,000,000 to benefit its cause, people will find out the one true religion, and James Randi will have finally found a genuine paranormal/supernatural power!

http://www.randi.org...

The evidence that god is in the mind is in the previous video i posted. Listen to the commentary as you watch.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/16/2012 11:30:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/16/2012 9:59:12 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 4/16/2012 8:27:58 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/15/2012 12:17:32 AM, KeytarHero wrote:
There is no irrefutable proof for any religion, just like there's no irrefutable proof for atheism. If there was, we wouldn't be debating whether there is a God or not.

You don't need proof of atheism. You don't have to prove that something doesn't exist, only that it exists. Atheism is the default after a lack of proof is evident.

That's shifting the burden of proof. Why should I believe in Atheism if there's no proof for it? I have evidence for Theism so if you can't prove to me that Atheism is true, then why should I leave my faith?

Becuase you dont need proof to be an atheist, what you need is a lack of proof.

Its not about proving atheism is true, its about showing that theism cannot be shown to be true, and therefore making it unreasonable to be a theist.