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Definition of Theism?

seeu46
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4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/20/2012 12:07:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

You could say that, but that would be a strange definition, and not really proper.

One who believes that a god or gods exist is more fitting.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/20/2012 12:09:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Technically, but I think this would mean the theist acknowledges another way of thinking, thus being logical - which doesn't compute.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
seeu46
Posts: 578
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4/20/2012 12:10:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 12:07:43 AM, phantom wrote:
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

You could say that, but that would be a strange definition, and not really proper.

One who believes that a god or gods exist is more fitting.

Interesting.
astrocometman
Posts: 86
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4/20/2012 10:44:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 12:09:02 AM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Technically, but I think this would mean the theist acknowledges another way of thinking, thus being logical - which doesn't compute.

My reply: It seems to me that it would be evident that there would be other ways of thinking. It is reasonable and logical to assume that characteristics in nature are mirrored in all things. Positive and negative are inherent to theism's theme. Good and evil, light and darkness, etc. There would be no continuity in in our nature without opposites.

One may assume that perfect beings would have no negative. That is what appears to be the case with a perfect Creator creating perfect beings. That has been an argument and a ground for atheists to stand in philosophical arguments. It is a flawed assumption. Why? Because potential is in the picture. Think about it and tell why potential would not be inherent to perfection. Potential can be anything a decision requires. There are fallen beings because of that, free will is intrinsic to theism; it does not belong to the atheist argument.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/20/2012 11:36:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Three categories:

1. People who believe gods exist. (theists)
2. People who don't believe either way. (weak atheists)
3. People who believe gods don't exist. (strong atheists)

It seems like you're after a term that includes groups 1 and 2. So we could say you are an a-strong-atheist, but that's fairly awkward. We could probably come up with a better name if we worked at it.

But first lets make sure it's worth the work. Are you looking for a synonym for theists, a new label for group 1? Or are you really looking for a name for a category that includes the weak atheists?
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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4/20/2012 11:38:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You could try acronyms:

NSA: Not strong atheist.
NASA: Not a strong atheist.

But those would be confusing. We can come up with something.
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
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4/20/2012 2:20:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 11:36:16 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Three categories:

1. People who believe gods exist. (theists)
2. People who don't believe either way. (weak atheists)
3. People who believe gods don't exist. (strong atheists)


Just replace the incorrect "weak atheism" with its correct and traditional substitute, agnosticism, and it'll be correct.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 2:20:01 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 11:36:16 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Three categories:

1. People who believe gods exist. (theists)
2. People who don't believe either way. (weak atheists)
3. People who believe gods don't exist. (strong atheists)


Just replace the incorrect "weak atheism" with its correct and traditional substitute, agnosticism, and it'll be correct.

I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/20/2012 3:35:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Agnostic - The Skeptic
Atheist - The state of believing God doesn't exist
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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4/20/2012 3:36:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You guys. lol

You forget many other believes. Pantheism. Deism. Pandeism. Ignosticism. Apatheism.

Come on now. :D
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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4/20/2012 3:37:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 3:36:41 PM, M.Torres wrote:
You guys. lol

You forget many other beliefs. Pantheism. Deism. Pandeism. Ignosticism. Apatheism.

Come on now. :D

Fixed. I feel stupid.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/20/2012 3:46:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 3:35:55 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Agnostic - The Skeptic
Atheist - The state of believing God doesn't exist

Agnosticism deals with knowledge, Atheism deals with belief.

If someone has a deck of cards and gives you a random card face down, would you believe it was the two of diamonds? No you wouldn't most likely, because the odds of that are 1/52, however you can't actually claim to know. Knowledge and what you would hedge your bets on are two distinct concepts.

So in the situation above I would be an "Atheist" (I wouldn't believe the card was a two of diamonds) and an "Agnostic" (There is no way to know for sure whether it's a two of diamonds or not) at the same time.
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
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4/20/2012 3:54:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.

I suppose I just don't see how. Agnosticism merely means not being committed to believing in either the existence or non-existence of God. Atheism means "there is no God" just as much as theism means "there is a God." If someone doesn't know if God exists or not but personally believes that He doesn't, that person could primarily identified as an agnostic and secondarily so as an agnostic with atheistic leanings.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/20/2012 4:08:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 3:54:29 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.

I suppose I just don't see how. Agnosticism merely means not being committed to believing in either the existence or non-existence of God. Atheism means "there is no God" just as much as theism means "there is a God." If someone doesn't know if God exists or not but personally believes that He doesn't, that person could primarily identified as an agnostic and secondarily so as an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

"I suppose I just don't see how."

Read the example in my last comment.

"Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a deity exists but do not claim it as personal knowledge)." - http://en.wikipedia.org...

Agnostic Atheism has been a known and accepted concept for over a hundred years. It's not really hard concept to grasp...If you pass me a random card from a deck, I won't believe it's a four of clubs because the odds are against it, however I won't claim to know for certain, understand?
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/20/2012 4:10:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 3:54:29 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.

I suppose I just don't see how. Agnosticism merely means not being committed to believing in either the existence or non-existence of God. Atheism means "there is no God" just as much as theism means "there is a God." If someone doesn't know if God exists or not but personally believes that He doesn't, that person could primarily identified as an agnostic and secondarily so as an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

Basically, It would be absurd to deny the possibility that the card you gave me was a four of clubs. However, it's completely logical to not believe it.
SovereignDream
Posts: 1,119
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4/20/2012 4:17:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 4:08:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:54:29 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.

I suppose I just don't see how. Agnosticism merely means not being committed to believing in either the existence or non-existence of God. Atheism means "there is no God" just as much as theism means "there is a God." If someone doesn't know if God exists or not but personally believes that He doesn't, that person could primarily identified as an agnostic and secondarily so as an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

"I suppose I just don't see how."

Read the example in my last comment.

"Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a deity exists but do not claim it as personal knowledge)." - http://en.wikipedia.org...

Agnostic Atheism has been a known and accepted concept for over a hundred years. It's not really hard concept to grasp...If you pass me a random card from a deck, I won't believe it's a four of clubs because the odds are against it, however I won't claim to know for certain, understand?

I agree. I've no problem with the term Agnostic Atheist (although I prefer agnostic with atheistic leanings, and yes, I understand it's impractically longer). What is patently un-intellectual and insincere, though, is trying to re-define atheism to mean "lack of belief in God" when that is mere agnosticism.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/20/2012 4:31:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 4:17:15 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 4:08:52 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:54:29 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.

I suppose I just don't see how. Agnosticism merely means not being committed to believing in either the existence or non-existence of God. Atheism means "there is no God" just as much as theism means "there is a God." If someone doesn't know if God exists or not but personally believes that He doesn't, that person could primarily identified as an agnostic and secondarily so as an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

"I suppose I just don't see how."

Read the example in my last comment.

"Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a deity exists but do not claim it as personal knowledge)." - http://en.wikipedia.org...

Agnostic Atheism has been a known and accepted concept for over a hundred years. It's not really hard concept to grasp...If you pass me a random card from a deck, I won't believe it's a four of clubs because the odds are against it, however I won't claim to know for certain, understand?

I agree. I've no problem with the term Agnostic Atheist (although I prefer agnostic with atheistic leanings, and yes, I understand it's impractically longer). What is patently un-intellectual and insincere, though, is trying to re-define atheism to mean "lack of belief in God" when that is mere agnosticism.

"although I prefer agnostic with atheistic leanings"

Atheist with agnostic leanings works too, but of course both are correct.

"Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism." - http://en.wikipedia.org...

Some see it as a subset of Atheism, some see it as a subset of Agnosticism, but of course that's purely subjective.

"What is patently un-intellectual and insincere, though, is trying to re-define atheism to mean "lack of belief in God" when that is mere agnosticism."

Not necessarily.

"Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist" - http://en.wikipedia.org...

"athe·ism noun \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity" - http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Notice how it says disbelief in the existence of a deity, and not, belief in the non-existence of a deity?

It seems like you have this picture in your head that Atheists are being dishonest and changing definitions, when it's ironic, because Atheism is defined with subsets. This means, that the one claiming it only has one meaning, is the one being dishonest and trying to change the definition. Just saying...
WxGeo
Posts: 134
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4/20/2012 5:57:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Notice how it says disbelief in the existence of a deity, and not, belief in the non-existence of a deity?

It seems like you have this picture in your head that Atheists are being dishonest and changing definitions, when it's ironic, because Atheism is defined with subsets. This means, that the one claiming it only has one meaning, is the one being dishonest and trying to change the definition. Just saying...

"Disbelief" was coined to 'describe' ungodliness, which was its colloquial usage. It was used as an insult.

But later as a philosophy, the self-identified Atheists proclaimed, "there is no God." Which is a claim to knowledge. A CLAIM to knowledge, not actual knowledge.

Let's think about this. If, philosophically, theism = "God exists" how then, philosophically, not biographically, does atheism NOT = "God does not exist?"
WxGeo
WxGeo
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4/20/2012 6:01:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Saying you lack belief, in anything, is merely a biographical/psychological description. Nothing more. Even a tree would lack belief in no God
WxGeo
WxGeo
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4/20/2012 6:02:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 11:36:16 AM, wiploc wrote:
At 4/20/2012 12:05:21 AM, seeu46 wrote:
I was wondering since the atheist definition had changed over time.

Can a theist say they lack the belief of no God.

The definition of Atheism got me wondering.

Three categories:

1. People who believe gods exist. (theists)
2. People who don't believe either way. (weak atheists)
3. People who believe gods don't exist. (strong atheists)

It seems like you're after a term that includes groups 1 and 2. So we could say you are an a-strong-atheist, but that's fairly awkward. We could probably come up with a better name if we worked at it.

But first lets make sure it's worth the work. Are you looking for a synonym for theists, a new label for group 1? Or are you really looking for a name for a category that includes the weak atheists?

2 = agnostics, tree, elephants, foxes, rocks
WxGeo
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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4/20/2012 6:06:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 5:57:42 PM, WxGeo wrote:
Notice how it says disbelief in the existence of a deity, and not, belief in the non-existence of a deity?

It seems like you have this picture in your head that Atheists are being dishonest and changing definitions, when it's ironic, because Atheism is defined with subsets. This means, that the one claiming it only has one meaning, is the one being dishonest and trying to change the definition. Just saying...

"Disbelief" was coined to 'describe' ungodliness, which was its colloquial usage. It was used as an insult.

If someone disbelieves X, that means that they do not believe X. Even a baby doesn't believe in God, so we are all born Atheists in some fashion by definition until indoctrinated.


But later as a philosophy, the self-identified Atheists proclaimed, "there is no God." Which is a claim to knowledge. A CLAIM to knowledge, not actual knowledge.

That's one type of Atheism though...


Let's think about this. If, philosophically, theism = "God exists" how then, philosophically, not biographically, does atheism NOT = "God does not exist?"

Theism = Belief of God
A-theism = Non-belief in God.

It still works...
WxGeo
Posts: 134
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4/20/2012 6:06:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 3:46:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:35:55 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Agnostic - The Skeptic
Atheist - The state of believing God doesn't exist

Agnosticism deals with knowledge, Atheism deals with belief.

If someone has a deck of cards and gives you a random card face down, would you believe it was the two of diamonds? No you wouldn't most likely, because the odds of that are 1/52, however you can't actually claim to know. Knowledge and what you would hedge your bets on are two distinct concepts.

So in the situation above I would be an "Atheist" (I wouldn't believe the card was a two of diamonds) and an "Agnostic" (There is no way to know for sure whether it's a two of diamonds or not) at the same time.

Knowledge isn't distinct from belief, look at epistemology. A properly basic belief is immediately 'known.' If your sole reason for sticking with this redefinition of atheism is because you think belief & knowledge are distinct, while belief is fundamental to knowledge, then the redefinition is found wanting.
WxGeo
WxGeo
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4/20/2012 6:09:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 4:10:14 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:54:29 PM, SovereignDream wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:30:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm sorry, but you are flat out incorrect. Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, Atheism has to do with belief. If someone didn't believe in God, but also claimed there was no way to know for sure, they would be an Atheist-Agnostic.

I suppose I just don't see how. Agnosticism merely means not being committed to believing in either the existence or non-existence of God. Atheism means "there is no God" just as much as theism means "there is a God." If someone doesn't know if God exists or not but personally believes that He doesn't, that person could primarily identified as an agnostic and secondarily so as an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

Basically, It would be absurd to deny the possibility that the card you gave me was a four of clubs. However, it's completely logical to not believe it.

Plants use no logic in 'not believing' what your card is. What makes me use logic in not believing what your card is?
WxGeo
WxGeo
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4/20/2012 6:10:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:06:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 5:57:42 PM, WxGeo wrote:
Notice how it says disbelief in the existence of a deity, and not, belief in the non-existence of a deity?

It seems like you have this picture in your head that Atheists are being dishonest and changing definitions, when it's ironic, because Atheism is defined with subsets. This means, that the one claiming it only has one meaning, is the one being dishonest and trying to change the definition. Just saying...

"Disbelief" was coined to 'describe' ungodliness, which was its colloquial usage. It was used as an insult.

If someone disbelieves X, that means that they do not believe X. Even a baby doesn't believe in God, so we are all born Atheists in some fashion by definition until indoctrinated.


But later as a philosophy, the self-identified Atheists proclaimed, "there is no God." Which is a claim to knowledge. A CLAIM to knowledge, not actual knowledge.

That's one type of Atheism though...


Let's think about this. If, philosophically, theism = "God exists" how then, philosophically, not biographically, does atheism NOT = "God does not exist?"

Theism = Belief of God
A-theism = Non-belief in God.

It still works...

Yes, works for atheism within the context of a biographical description, which is opposite of theism, right?
WxGeo
CrazyPerson
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4/20/2012 6:10:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:06:57 PM, WxGeo wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:46:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:35:55 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Agnostic - The Skeptic
Atheist - The state of believing God doesn't exist

Agnosticism deals with knowledge, Atheism deals with belief.

If someone has a deck of cards and gives you a random card face down, would you believe it was the two of diamonds? No you wouldn't most likely, because the odds of that are 1/52, however you can't actually claim to know. Knowledge and what you would hedge your bets on are two distinct concepts.

So in the situation above I would be an "Atheist" (I wouldn't believe the card was a two of diamonds) and an "Agnostic" (There is no way to know for sure whether it's a two of diamonds or not) at the same time.

Knowledge isn't distinct from belief, look at epistemology. A properly basic belief is immediately 'known.' If your sole reason for sticking with this redefinition of atheism is because you think belief & knowledge are distinct, while belief is fundamental to knowledge, then the redefinition is found wanting.

Right, an agnostic can believe he does not know through by whatever knowledge he defines that by.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
WxGeo
Posts: 134
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4/20/2012 6:12:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Right, an agnostic can believe he does not know through by whatever knowledge he defines that by.

Kinda circular there, but I think you have a coherence theory of knowledge going on for you there. See I'm a foundationalist (we see things in pyramids, whereas coherentists see things in circles and life rafts ;-)
WxGeo
Rational_Thinker9119
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4/20/2012 6:13:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/20/2012 6:06:57 PM, WxGeo wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:46:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 4/20/2012 3:35:55 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
Agnostic - The Skeptic
Atheist - The state of believing God doesn't exist

Agnosticism deals with knowledge, Atheism deals with belief.

If someone has a deck of cards and gives you a random card face down, would you believe it was the two of diamonds? No you wouldn't most likely, because the odds of that are 1/52, however you can't actually claim to know. Knowledge and what you would hedge your bets on are two distinct concepts.

So in the situation above I would be an "Atheist" (I wouldn't believe the card was a two of diamonds) and an "Agnostic" (There is no way to know for sure whether it's a two of diamonds or not) at the same time.

Knowledge isn't distinct from belief, look at epistemology. A properly basic belief is immediately 'known.' If your sole reason for sticking with this redefinition of atheism is because you think belief & knowledge are distinct, while belief is fundamental to knowledge, then the redefinition is found wanting.

Knowledge and belief can be two very distinct concepts, you clearly have no clue what you are talking about I'm afraid.

Example 1:

When you leave your house to go to work in the morning, you don't believe you will crash or else you wouldn't go. However, you can't say you know you aren't going to crash.

Example 2:

If you get dealt random card face down, you probably wouldn't believe it was a three of hearts because it could be any card and the odds are against you. However, it would be illogical to say that you know that it isn't a three of hearts.