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Religion: Homosexuality and Masturbation

CrazyPerson
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4/23/2012 2:34:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is based on the idea that everybody indulges in the sensual pleasure of masturbation, at least once in a while. I think that it is thoroughly unfair to cross-examine homosexuality and try to prove it necessary to abolish the acts of homosexuality.

My reasoning:

The religious doctrines provide us with an understanding of moral sin, and upon this we base our concept of right and wrong. The problem with bashing homosexuality is that indulging in sexual pleasures outside of procreation, no matter what they be, as a whole, are equally opposing the teachings of religious doctrines. Therefore, unless one fully abstains from masturbation, one is not in any position to weigh in on the moral value of homosexuality.

I am proposing the idea to be contradictory if one is OK and the other is not.

At this point, I am only weighing in on the topic of sexuality and sin, not to mention every other topic regarding 'sin and desire' depicted by religious doctrine.

Now I ask from those who oppose homosexuality, do you equally oppose masturbation? If not, you definitely need to attempt to validate your view. The idea that homosexuality needs more attention than any other act of self indulgence is hypocritical, and suggests that everything within religious doctrine must be adhered to.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
yoda878
Posts: 902
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4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.
Me
yoda878
Posts: 902
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4/24/2012 2:42:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

I find it odd that you think everyone masturbates, isn't that like a faze that teenage boys go threw till they learn to control it.
For the ones that it goes to adult hood i would think they were either not taught to control it or never learned it in the first place.
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CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
yoda878
Posts: 902
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4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.
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royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/24/2012 2:52:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

That passage literally means that Christians cannot be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex.
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
yoda878
Posts: 902
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4/24/2012 3:00:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??

Why cant a person master it?
Why is it impossible?
Me
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 3:11:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 3:00:10 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??

Why cant a person master it?
Why is it impossible?

The idea of being 'free of desire' is a non-human trait. It's a godly trait, the reason being that humans cannot achieve such states - they can just reach for them. How would it possible for a human to live a life completely free of desire and self service?
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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4/24/2012 3:44:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 3:11:09 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:00:10 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

In my experience you could not be farther from the truth. IF by 'key concepts' you mean things such as refrain from masturbation or homosexuality (a works based soteriology) then I would like you to mention a fundamentalist who would agree with you. If you can't I believe that would be evidence that you simply do not understand fundamentalists. The only key concept's to fundamentalists is the gospel and repentance. "Turn or burn" so to speak.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

So you have never heard of a Christian before? I know many Christians who fulfill both of your terms. I do feel that works based soteriological based systems it would be impossible to maintain A and B without loosing some form of our humanity. Fortunately, Christianity is not a works based faith.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.

Did you miss the irony in your statement here?

well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??

Why cant a person master it?
Why is it impossible?

The idea of being 'free of desire' is a non-human trait. It's a godly trait, the reason being that humans cannot achieve such states - they can just reach for them. How would it possible for a human to live a life completely free of desire and self service?

I think the point of the passage (and its context) is to show its impossibility. That no one anywhere can claim they are guilt-free of sin is a core concept of the gospel. I do not think I know one person (or a close friend) who does not masturbate (Christian or non-Christian). I know many Christians who claim they struggle with it while still declaring it an evil practice (myself would be such) and many Christians who do not struggle at all with it (they give in without thinking twice- also myself at times), and many who it seems to simply not be a problem (not me). The message of the gospel is not our ability to keep the law, its about Jesus' ability to have kept the law. Preaching the gospel is not being hypocritical- its more like a man in a city who gets a message that the city will be utterly destroyed and then that man warns those whom he can to cease their current lives and to leave the city to find refuge before its too late.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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4/24/2012 3:48:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 3:11:09 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:00:10 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??

Why cant a person master it?
Why is it impossible?

The idea of being 'free of desire' is a non-human trait. It's a godly trait, the reason being that humans cannot achieve such states - they can just reach for them. How would it possible for a human to live a life completely free of desire and self service?

ok so are we talking about all desires or just masturbation and gay?
We are in an imperfect world in imperfect bodies.
what one can master another may not master yet, the idea is to better yourself.
I do believe that people can master sexual impulse control.
Some may not even struggle with it, but have another addiction or whatever.
You know a true christian knows they are a sinner.

Matthew 7:1-5 ESV / 1,311 helpful votes

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye
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CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 3:54:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 3:44:08 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:11:09 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:00:10 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

In my experience you could not be farther from the truth. IF by 'key concepts' you mean things such as refrain from masturbation or homosexuality (a works based soteriology) then I would like you to mention a fundamentalist who would agree with you. If you can't I believe that would be evidence that you simply do not understand fundamentalists. The only key concept's to fundamentalists is the gospel and repentance. "Turn or burn" so to speak.

We are talking about different styles of fundamentalism. I'm talking about fundamentalists from an outsiders viewpoint, you're just talking about devout christians which i wouldn't consider to be fundamentalists. The term fundamentalist in my stated context is a pejorative term.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

So you have never heard of a Christian before? I know many Christians who fulfill both of your terms. I do feel that works based soteriological based systems it would be impossible to maintain A and B without loosing some form of our humanity. Fortunately, Christianity is not a works based faith.

Christians who fulfill both my terms = Jesus, nobody else.
What does 'works based' mean??? I honestly have no idea.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.

Did you miss the irony in your statement here?

If you're talking about victimizing myself, then no, i certainly did not miss anything.


well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??

Why cant a person master it? -

Perform an action with no desire? Let's see - eating is necessary right? When you eat, you are eating for the well being of yourself for yourself. We can go further and further into the subsets of how and why this is always the case, but any action will always stem from desire, even if it means 'desire to serve the lord'.

Why is it impossible?

These are impossible because they are contradictory as depicted above ^.

The idea of being 'free of desire' is a non-human trait. It's a godly trait, the reason being that humans cannot achieve such states - they can just reach for them. How would it possible for a human to live a life completely free of desire and self service?

I think the point of the passage (and its context) is to show its impossibility. That no one anywhere can claim they are guilt-free of sin is a core concept of the gospel. I do not think I know one person (or a close friend) who does not masturbate (Christian or non-Christian). I know many Christians who claim they struggle with it while still declaring it an evil practice (myself would be such) and many Christians who do not struggle at all with it (they give in without thinking twice- also myself at times), and many who it seems to simply not be a problem (not me). The message of the gospel is not our ability to keep the law, its about Jesus' ability to have kept the law. Preaching the gospel is not being hypocritical- its more like a man in a city who gets a message that the city will be utterly destroyed and then that man warns those whom he can to cease their current lives and to leave the city to find refuge before its too late.

Exactly my point. No one anywhere can make a sin-free claim for themselves. But what they can do, is raise the bar to their personally desired levels, at which point certain fundamental beliefs are more important than others. THAT is religious fundamentalism. The type of person who can chastise others for something when they themselves are being hypocritical d*ckheads!
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 3:55:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Fundamental Christians are the people who try to get everyone else to realize that, "Yes you are indeed Christian, you just don't know it yet."
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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4/24/2012 4:19:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

OberHerr.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/24/2012 4:21:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 4:19:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

OberHerr.

You haven't even hit puberty yet, and I can bet that you are lying :p
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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4/24/2012 4:23:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 4:21:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/24/2012 4:19:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

OberHerr.

You haven't even hit puberty yet, and I can bet that you are lying :p

I'm a 15 year old freshman in high school.... And I am not.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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4/24/2012 4:31:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/23/2012 2:34:14 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
This is based on the idea that everybody indulges in the sensual pleasure of masturbation, at least once in a while. I think that it is thoroughly unfair to cross-examine homosexuality and try to prove it necessary to abolish the acts of homosexuality.

My reasoning:

The religious doctrines provide us with an understanding of moral sin, and upon this we base our concept of right and wrong. The problem with bashing homosexuality is that indulging in sexual pleasures outside of procreation, no matter what they be, as a whole, are equally opposing the teachings of religious doctrines. Therefore, unless one fully abstains from masturbation, one is not in any position to weigh in on the moral value of homosexuality.

I am proposing the idea to be contradictory if one is OK and the other is not.

At this point, I am only weighing in on the topic of sexuality and sin, not to mention every other topic regarding 'sin and desire' depicted by religious doctrine.

Now I ask from those who oppose homosexuality, do you equally oppose masturbation? If not, you definitely need to attempt to validate your view. The idea that homosexuality needs more attention than any other act of self indulgence is hypocritical, and suggests that everything within religious doctrine must be adhered to.


Homosexuality, as described in the Bible, is when a (wo)man lays with another (wo)man.

masturbation is still considered an immoral sexual act, outside of marriage.

Homosexuality is not any worse then a premiscuous heterosexual. No sin is worse then other, in terms of salvation by works.

With that said; Most people only consider the physical aspect of sexual immorality, even though it extends beyond the physical and lies more fatally in our minds and hearts.(Matt. 5:22-28)

Sin is a condition more than a life-style or set of selfish/evil actions.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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4/24/2012 4:36:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 3:54:05 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:44:08 PM, joneszj wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:11:09 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 3:00:10 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:54 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

In my experience you could not be farther from the truth. IF by 'key concepts' you mean things such as refrain from masturbation or homosexuality (a works based soteriology) then I would like you to mention a fundamentalist who would agree with you. If you can't I believe that would be evidence that you simply do not understand fundamentalists. The only key concept's to fundamentalists is the gospel and repentance. "Turn or burn" so to speak.

We are talking about different styles of fundamentalism. I'm talking about fundamentalists from an outsiders viewpoint, you're just talking about devout christians which i wouldn't consider to be fundamentalists. The term fundamentalist in my stated context is a pejorative term.

I consider a fundamentalist to be anyone who adheres 'strictly' to a form of doctrine. I would almost say that anyone who is not a fundamentalist is a hypocrite unless being a hypocrite is the doctrine the fundamentalist must follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

So you have never heard of a Christian before? I know many Christians who fulfill both of your terms. I do feel that works based soteriological based systems it would be impossible to maintain A and B without loosing some form of our humanity. Fortunately, Christianity is not a works based faith.

Christians who fulfill both my terms = Jesus, nobody else.
What does 'works based' mean??? I honestly have no idea.

Let me restate what you said to see if I understand you correctly: you are saying that you know no one who 1) presses their belief on others who at the same time 2) adheres to their own belief, no? A Christian preaches their gospel (pressing) while declaring its truths 2) that all men are wretched sinful beings and need salvation. All Christians would fall under these criteria and meet them. Therefor, a Christian fundamentalist 1) adheres to a doctrine that all men are sinners and need to believe in the gospel, and 2) preach (press) that to others. Unless the person preaching is not a sinner they are not hypocrites.

A works based soteriology (theology of salvation) teaches that men must 'do' (work) and/or not 'do' ceratin things to be saved.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.

Did you miss the irony in your statement here?

If you're talking about victimizing myself, then no, i certainly did not miss anything.

You are declaring that you believe that anyone who declares what they believe are hypocrites.

well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

This passage proves the impossibility of adherence. No one truly follows their religion, they only follow themselves. It's silly to think otherwise. Therefore, i don't see what makes them morally acceptable at all. I mean, are morals something that we should always reach to achieve, but never actually get there??

Why cant a person master it? -

Perform an action with no desire? Let's see - eating is necessary right? When you eat, you are eating for the well being of yourself for yourself. We can go further and further into the subsets of how and why this is always the case, but any action will always stem from desire, even if it means 'desire to serve the lord'.

Why is it impossible?

These are impossible because they are contradictory as depicted above ^.

The idea of being 'free of desire' is a non-human trait. It's a godly trait, the reason being that humans cannot achieve such states - they can just reach for them. How would it possible for a human to live a life completely free of desire and self service?

I think the point of the passage (and its context) is to show its impossibility. That no one anywhere can claim they are guilt-free of sin is a core concept of the gospel. I do not think I know one person (or a close friend) who does not masturbate (Christian or non-Christian). I know many Christians who claim they struggle with it while still declaring it an evil practice (myself would be such) and many Christians who do not struggle at all with it (they give in without thinking twice- also myself at times), and many who it seems to simply not be a problem (not me). The message of the gospel is not our ability to keep the law, its about Jesus' ability to have kept the law. Preaching the gospel is not being hypocritical- its more like a man in a city who gets a message that the city will be utterly destroyed and then that man warns those whom he can to cease their current lives and to leave the city to find refuge before its too late.

Exactly my point. No one anywhere can make a sin-free claim for themselves. But what they can do, is raise the bar to their personally desired levels, at which point certain fundamental beliefs are more important than others. THAT is religious fundamentalism. The type of person who can chastise others for something when they themselves are being hypocritical d*ckheads!

I don't think that is fundamentalism, it is hypocritical though. You are defining fundamentalism to where it is synonymous with hypocritical-ism. A fundy can be hypocritical but fundamentalism is not. out of space. pm me if you would like.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/24/2012 5:20:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes... They're both wrong and fall under the category of sexual sin or giving into your bodily desires.

They're no different and no sin has more weight than another.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/24/2012 5:22:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23

Name a Christian other than Jesus who hasn't lied. You can't, we're all sinners and not one is perfect.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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4/24/2012 6:00:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:52:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

That passage literally means that Christians cannot be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex.

Lust is the inordinate desire for or enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Thus it is only a sin if such desires are excessive. It does not mean that we cannot be sexually attracted to other people.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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4/24/2012 6:06:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 6:00:57 PM, johnnyboy54 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

That passage literally means that Christians cannot be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex.

Lust is the inordinate desire for or enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Thus it is only a sin if such desires are excessive. It does not mean that we cannot be sexually attracted to other people.

Just wanted to clarify who I was responding to.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Tnkissfan
Posts: 199
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4/24/2012 6:09:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/23/2012 2:34:14 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
This is based on the idea that everybody indulges in the sensual pleasure of masturbation, at least once in a while. I think that it is thoroughly unfair to cross-examine homosexuality and try to prove it necessary to abolish the acts of homosexuality.

My reasoning:

The religious doctrines provide us with an understanding of moral sin, and upon this we base our concept of right and wrong. The problem with bashing homosexuality is that indulging in sexual pleasures outside of procreation, no matter what they be, as a whole, are equally opposing the teachings of religious doctrines. Therefore, unless one fully abstains from masturbation, one is not in any position to weigh in on the moral value of homosexuality.

I am proposing the idea to be contradictory if one is OK and the other is not.

At this point, I am only weighing in on the topic of sexuality and sin, not to mention every other topic regarding 'sin and desire' depicted by religious doctrine.

Now I ask from those who oppose homosexuality, do you equally oppose masturbation? If not, you definitely need to attempt to validate your view. The idea that homosexuality needs more attention than any other act of self indulgence is hypocritical, and suggests that everything within religious doctrine must be adhered to.

There are some people that don't engage in sexual activity at all ( including masturbation ). It's conceivable that the desire has been all but removed due to a testosterone imbalance. That notwithstanding, one can learn to control the urge to masturbate just as one can control the urge to engage in sexual activity. I surmise it would be difficult to do in the teenage years.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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4/24/2012 6:11:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:52:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

That passage literally means that Christians cannot be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex.

*Beating my forehead bloody against the keyboard... and I typed while doing it too.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/24/2012 6:12:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 6:11:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:

*Beating my forehead bloody against the keyboard... and I typed while doing it too.

That's talent.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
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4/24/2012 6:19:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Where does the Bible specifically state don't masturbate?
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/24/2012 6:20:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 6:11:13 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:52:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:45:28 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:37:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.


I don't know if they do or if they don't, but i would like to think that they don't :/
I'm sure some do and some don't.

I'm going to make a wild assumption that many fundamentalist christians DO indeed masturbate. This is evident to the fact that fundamentalist usually only stress the importance of one or two key concepts in the bible, and as long as one adheres to such concepts - he is saved. Other than those key concepts, repenting for their sins will cover the rest.

Having assumed that, I would say that anybody arguing for the sake of introducing their religion onto others is a fundamentalist, evident in the fact that they believe everybody else should too uphold their fundamental beliefs. (Hence the term fundamentalism)

I've never heard of there existing of a person who both A.) presses their beliefs onto others (be it in less-than-obvious terms or not) and also B.) actually practices what they preach.

Hence, anyone arguing for the sake of their religion is a hypocritical fool and a fundamentalist. Now, there do exist many people who do not argue for the sake of their religion but you wouldn't ever hear from them, because they mind their own business.
well I agree with you that if you masterbate it is no different then gay or adultery here is why.

Matthew 5:28 – "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who has looked a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I would also like to say what everones struggle is there is the same or different for another.

That passage literally means that Christians cannot be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex.

*Beating my forehead bloody against the keyboard... and I typed while doing it too.

You haven't refuted the statement. If you are sexually attracted to someone of the opposite sex, you gaze at them "lustfully". I'm sorry that your religion does that to you :/
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/24/2012 6:22:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 4:23:59 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/24/2012 4:21:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/24/2012 4:19:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:31:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:29:01 PM, yoda878 wrote:
I think as far as I understand (christian religions that i have encountered) all teach against masturbation.

Name a christian who doesn't masturbate other than jesus.

OberHerr.

You haven't even hit puberty yet, and I can bet that you are lying :p

I'm a 15 year old freshman in high school.... And I am not.

Give it a year or two. I grew up religious and conservative and I was proud of myself for "accomplishing" the same thing you have "accomplished" when I was a freshman.