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Another Question for Theists

ianspigler
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4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?
thisisnottom
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/24/2012 9:08:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Hell—not a place with high thermal output; hell is figuratively described to depict the terrible tragedy of life apart from God. Both (a) darkness and (b) flames, if literal, would cancel each other out. (Isa. 66:24: not literal "worms" in hell). Even Calvin/Luther held that "fiery" passages are metaphorical. "Fire" in Scripture often used to create a serious, reverent tone (Dt. 4:24; Rev. 1:14). Also, hell was prepared for spirit beings (the devil and his angels (Mt. 25:41), who can't be physically pained.

William Crockett: "Physical fire works on physical bodies with physical nerve endings, not on spirit beings."

The essence of hell: the agony and utter hopelessness of separation from God—to be "away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes. 1:9), the greatest loss possible. Mortimer Adler: "The damned in hell do not suffer bodily fires or tortures. Their punishment is pain of loss, not of sense." Usually, mental, psychological, or emotional anguish is far more difficult to handle than physical pain is.

Hell—the logical outcome of a life/mindset away from God: Isn't it unjust for God to punish everlastingly for sins committed during a limited period of time on earth? However, discrete, individual sinful acts aren't the issue, but rather a life directed away from God. Hell (or bliss with God) isn't a surprise outcome but naturally flows from how one lived and operated on earth. God's presence would be torture for those who don't desire it. Also, hell is like finally getting a divorce from God. "The punishment fits the crime because the punishment is the crime. Saying no to God means no God." (Hell is both the punishment for and the fruit of one's earthly life.)

D.A. Carson: "there is no hint in the Bible that there is any repentance in hell….Perhaps we should think of hell as a place where people continue to rebel, continue to insist on their own way, continue societal structures of prejudice and hate, continue to defy the living God. And as they continue to defy God, so he continues to punish them. And the cycle goes on and on and on."
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/24/2012 9:11:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hell is a state of total separation from God which is not necessarily a punishment but a place you have earned yourself through denying or refusing God in life.

It is not much different a state then you would have lived in life.

Besides, questions like this are stupid. You don't get to decide what punishment is right or wrong nor does it matter if you like it. If the God of the Universe banishes you to Hell you go there... His Will and Word are supreme.
popculturepooka
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4/24/2012 9:21:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell?

Yes.

If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment.

No crime merits that punishment, imo.
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phantom
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4/24/2012 10:19:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

It's obvious that hell exists I think. However I don't know what it is as I can't get a very clear example from the Bible. I do believe that non-believers cease to exist after death though. Verses seem to allude that the annihilation is done in hell.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
popculturepooka
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4/24/2012 10:22:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 9:08:35 PM, stubs wrote:

D.A. Carson: "there is no hint in the Bible that there is any repentance in hell….Perhaps we should think of hell as a place where people continue to rebel, continue to insist on their own way, continue societal structures of prejudice and hate, continue to defy the living God. And as they continue to defy God, so he continues to punish them. And the cycle goes on and on and on."

How does Carson square this picture of perpetual rebels against God with these verses?

"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."

Ephesians 1:9-10

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." … When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Colossians 1:15-20
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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CrazyPerson
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4/24/2012 11:11:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not a theist, but I actually went to hell once. It was insane, and happened simultaneously with a car crash when I smashed my head really hard (yeah i got cat scans afterwards, that's not why I'm crazy). Anyway, it made me never want to be a Christian, that's for sure.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
stubs
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4/24/2012 11:18:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 10:22:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:


How does Carson square this picture of perpetual rebels against God with these verses?

"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."

Ephesians 1:9-10

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." … When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Colossians 1:15-20

Could you explain what you mean by how does Carson "square this picture of perpetual rebels." Just reading the passages in context I just don't see the contradiction. Do you mind pointing them out for me?
stubs
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4/24/2012 11:19:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:11:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
I'm not a theist, but I actually went to hell once. It was insane, and happened simultaneously with a car crash when I smashed my head really hard (yeah i got cat scans afterwards, that's not why I'm crazy). Anyway, it made me never want to be a Christian, that's for sure.

Could you explain how that made you not want to be a Christian?
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:20:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Most Christians anyway think of hell not as a sadistic type positive punishment, but rather an absence of 'the Good' (God): Man left to his own moral vices... It's simply God being a gentleman and honoring free decisions.

I like to analogy it by how "dark" isn't anything positive, rather it's the absence of light, etc.
thett3
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4/24/2012 11:20:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell?

No.

If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment.

Eternally punishing someone.

Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Answered above.
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Rusty
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4/24/2012 11:29:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:20:20 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Most Christians anyway think of hell not as a sadistic type positive punishment, but rather an absence of 'the Good' (God): Man left to his own moral vices... It's simply God being a gentleman and honoring free decisions.

I like to analogy it by how "dark" isn't anything positive, rather it's the absence of light, etc.

Should free will be valued so highly to the point of... y'know... eternal conscious torment? I'm not claiming that this is a new metaphor, and it might not even be a good one, but in my flawed human state, I would DEFINITELY override my child's free will (if I was a parent) if he or she was going to walk out into the middle of the highway at a very young age (If you don't like that example, insert something else.) Presumably, that would be based on my love for my child. How much greater is God's love?
stubs
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4/24/2012 11:32:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here's another question. It surprises me how many Christians say no they do not believe in Hell. To those that say that: do you think that view is supported by scripture, do you just not like hell, do you think the idea of an all-loving God and hell forever is incompatible, or something else?
popculturepooka
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4/24/2012 11:36:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:18:49 PM, stubs wrote:
At 4/24/2012 10:22:19 PM, popculturepooka wrote:


How does Carson square this picture of perpetual rebels against God with these verses?

"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."

Ephesians 1:9-10

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." … When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Colossians 1:15-20

Could you explain what you mean by how does Carson "square this picture of perpetual rebels." Just reading the passages in context I just don't see the contradiction. Do you mind pointing them out for me?

These passages imply that that EVERYTHING will be under subjection to God and at peace through reconciliation. Clearly if everything is like that it can't also be the case that there are somethings that aren't reconciled/not at peace/not subjected to God.
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CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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4/24/2012 11:39:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:19:57 PM, stubs wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:11:52 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
I'm not a theist, but I actually went to hell once. It was insane, and happened simultaneously with a car crash when I smashed my head really hard (yeah i got cat scans afterwards, that's not why I'm crazy). Anyway, it made me never want to be a Christian, that's for sure.

Could you explain how that made you not want to be a Christian?

Because what it did was define what hell was for me. What happened was that when i smashed my head, everything i ever knew about anything completely disappeared and I entered this sort of perpetual void where i existed as a bunch of gears grinding together (that's the best i can describe it). I was totally paralyzed and i could just see and feel grinding gears - no body, no thoughts, nothing but Gears. It was scary and painful and extremely hard to explain properly because it is hard to imagine being 'gears'. I felt like metal, and i felt like I was perpetually twisting in every direction and my visual perception was just filled with like red/black/metallic shapes that were very inorganic and uninviting. Anyway, i realized if I were to be a Christian i would always have to reference that experience as being hell and I would never want to allow myself that misfortune and fear.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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4/24/2012 11:41:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:32:39 PM, stubs wrote:
Here's another question. It surprises me how many Christians say no they do not believe in Hell. To those that say that: do you think that view is supported by scripture, do you just not like hell, do you think the idea of an all-loving God and hell forever is incompatible, or something else?

As someone who does believe in it, do you *like* the ideal of Hell?
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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4/25/2012 12:27:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:29:26 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:20:20 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Most Christians anyway think of hell not as a sadistic type positive punishment, but rather an absence of 'the Good' (God): Man left to his own moral vices... It's simply God being a gentleman and honoring free decisions.

I like to analogy it by how "dark" isn't anything positive, rather it's the absence of light, etc.

Should free will be valued so highly to the point of... y'know... eternal conscious torment? I'm not claiming that this is a new metaphor, and it might not even be a good one, but in my flawed human state, I would DEFINITELY override my child's free will (if I was a parent) if he or she was going to walk out into the middle of the highway at a very young age (If you don't like that example, insert something else.) Presumably, that would be based on my love for my child. How much greater is God's love?

It all depends on what God aims at maximizing,

http://www.robkoons.net...

You obv aim at maximizing your child's safety, but that's a very limited view as compared to our existential situation and God's teleology or purpose.

Let's say if you were restrained from committing apostasy somehow by God. There seems to be more problems with that than I can count at the moment but the main one that sticks out at me first is such an act wouldn't be in accordance with God's divine nature. He would be going contrary to his essence, etc to hinder your freedom.

Also, it's possible you would perhaps come to spurn God even worse knowing that he forced you into salvation.

But it really all depends on God's teleology for us man. It seems to me the Bible makes it clear that he doesn't want robots, he wants mature free moral agents who are capable of enjoying the gracious bestowal of the knowledge of him. Knowledge by acquaintance of course.
Reason_Alliance
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4/25/2012 12:33:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:29:26 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:20:20 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Most Christians anyway think of hell not as a sadistic type positive punishment, but rather an absence of 'the Good' (God): Man left to his own moral vices... It's simply God being a gentleman and honoring free decisions.

I like to analogy it by how "dark" isn't anything positive, rather it's the absence of light, etc.

Should free will be valued so highly to the point of... y'know... eternal conscious torment? I'm not claiming that this is a new metaphor, and it might not even be a good one, but in my flawed human state, I would DEFINITELY override my child's free will (if I was a parent) if he or she was going to walk out into the middle of the highway at a very young age (If you don't like that example, insert something else.) Presumably, that would be based on my love for my child. How much greater is God's love?

More than that the Bible makes it clear that ample opportunity in a person's life is made for those who are willing to come into a relationship with God. So at root I believe it's never the intellectual facade a person puts up as a wall that keeps a person from God, rather it's the heart condition--that mechanism that chooses who we love, etc.
IveGotUrOuts
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4/25/2012 4:13:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

Hell is not a place that you go to hell is the grave separated from God for eternity.
stubs
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4/25/2012 7:43:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:36:05 PM, popculturepooka wrote:


"And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."

Ephesians 1:9-10

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." … When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."

Colossians 1:15-20

Could you explain what you mean by how does Carson "square this picture of perpetual rebels." Just reading the passages in context I just don't see the contradiction. Do you mind pointing them out for me?

These passages imply that that EVERYTHING will be under subjection to God and at peace through reconciliation. Clearly if everything is like that it can't also be the case that there are somethings that aren't reconciled/not at peace/not subjected to God.

I don't think the Ephesians passage is saying that at all. God's ultimate plan is to bring together - to ultimately resolve - all things in Christ, either through Jesus as a Savior or Jesus as a Judge; this will happen in the fullness of the times.

1 Corinthians:
When He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power: For now, God has granted a measure of rule and authority and power to men, to Satan, and even to death. But all that is temporary. Jesus will take His rightful place as the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15). After the resurrection, God will finally resolve all of history according to His will.

He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet: Paul here refers to the 1,000 year reign of Jesus described in Revelation 20:1-6. After that time, there will be a final, Satan inspired rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10), which Jesus will crush and finally and forever put all enemies under His feet.

That God may be all in all: Here, Paul refers to God the Son's desire to glorify God the Father through all eternity. Importantly, each person of the Trinity desires to glorify another person of the Trinity. The Son glorifies the Father (John 17:4), the Father glorifies the Son (John 17:5), and the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son (John 16:14). This aspect of the nature of God is something God wants us to walk in, having a concern for the glory of others, and not our own (Philippians 2:3-4).

Colossians: As the "Prince of Peace" (Isa 9:6), Jesus will ultimately quell all rebellion against God and his purposes. For believers this means present reconciliation to God as his friends. As for nonbelievers and the demonic powers, Christ's universal reign of peace will be enforced on them, for their rebellion will be decisively defeated by Christ as conquering king so that they can no longer do any harm in the universe.

I am one of those people that thinks anyone can make the bible claim something that is not really there. We have to be extreamly careful when we interpret the bible especially for something like this.
Thaddeus
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4/25/2012 7:45:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

I don't believe in theists.

The only people in hell are gingers.
stubs
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4/25/2012 8:49:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:39:36 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:


Because what it did was define what hell was for me. What happened was that when i smashed my head, everything i ever knew about anything completely disappeared and I entered this sort of perpetual void where i existed as a bunch of gears grinding together (that's the best i can describe it). I was totally paralyzed and i could just see and feel grinding gears - no body, no thoughts, nothing but Gears. It was scary and painful and extremely hard to explain properly because it is hard to imagine being 'gears'. I felt like metal, and i felt like I was perpetually twisting in every direction and my visual perception was just filled with like red/black/metallic shapes that were very inorganic and uninviting. Anyway, i realized if I were to be a Christian i would always have to reference that experience as being hell and I would never want to allow myself that misfortune and fear.

Do you think there is contradiction between what you experienced and the hell that is presented in the Christian Bible?
stubs
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4/25/2012 8:56:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:41:02 PM, Rusty wrote:


As someone who does believe in it, do you *like* the ideal of Hell?

I think C.S Lewis said it best in regards to the doctrine of Hell. "There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord's own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason."
yoda878
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4/25/2012 9:24:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 2:06:46 PM, ianspigler wrote:
Do you believe in Hell? If you do tell me what crime deserves an eternity of punishment. Think about it, not a couple hundred years, not a billion, not even a trillion years but punsihment without end! What's deserving of that?

I don't believe in hell per say, as though people describe. I believe in outer darkness. I have no idea what would get a person there all i know is that God knows whats in your heart and that is how you will be judged.
Me
CrazyPerson
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4/25/2012 10:12:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/25/2012 8:49:16 AM, stubs wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:39:36 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:


Because what it did was define what hell was for me. What happened was that when i smashed my head, everything i ever knew about anything completely disappeared and I entered this sort of perpetual void where i existed as a bunch of gears grinding together (that's the best i can describe it). I was totally paralyzed and i could just see and feel grinding gears - no body, no thoughts, nothing but Gears. It was scary and painful and extremely hard to explain properly because it is hard to imagine being 'gears'. I felt like metal, and i felt like I was perpetually twisting in every direction and my visual perception was just filled with like red/black/metallic shapes that were very inorganic and uninviting. Anyway, i realized if I were to be a Christian i would always have to reference that experience as being hell and I would never want to allow myself that misfortune and fear.

Do you think there is contradiction between what you experienced and the hell that is presented in the Christian Bible?

No, i think hell just serves to represent a place of eternal agony and suffering. It's a construct of the mind. It's really hard to imagine time stopping, but anyone who has ever had a severely traumatic experience or near death experience has probably experienced a time-stop. If you learn about how death, dmt, and the brain works, you realize that before you die you essentially enter a dmt-induced state (after which, we don't know what happens), at which point you will inevitably fall into hell or raise into heaven depending on your current state of affairs and expectations about the afterlife. It's really a very simple process and cannot be denied.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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4/25/2012 10:22:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/25/2012 10:12:59 AM, CrazyPerson wrote:

No, i think hell just serves to represent a place of eternal agony and suffering. It's a construct of the mind. It's really hard to imagine time stopping, but anyone who has ever had a severely traumatic experience or near death experience has probably experienced a time-stop. If you learn about how death, dmt, and the brain works, you realize that before you die you essentially enter a dmt-induced state (after which, we don't know what happens), at which point you will inevitably fall into hell or raise into heaven depending on your current state of affairs and expectations about the afterlife. It's really a very simple process and cannot be denied.

I meant the part about being "gears" Do you think that contradicts what the Bible says? Gears seems to be implying some sort of physical pain which does not seem to be an idea presented in the Christian Bible.
CrazyPerson
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4/25/2012 10:28:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/25/2012 10:22:32 AM, stubs wrote:
At 4/25/2012 10:12:59 AM, CrazyPerson wrote:

No, i think hell just serves to represent a place of eternal agony and suffering. It's a construct of the mind. It's really hard to imagine time stopping, but anyone who has ever had a severely traumatic experience or near death experience has probably experienced a time-stop. If you learn about how death, dmt, and the brain works, you realize that before you die you essentially enter a dmt-induced state (after which, we don't know what happens), at which point you will inevitably fall into hell or raise into heaven depending on your current state of affairs and expectations about the afterlife. It's really a very simple process and cannot be denied.

I meant the part about being "gears" Do you think that contradicts what the Bible says? Gears seems to be implying some sort of physical pain which does not seem to be an idea presented in the Christian Bible.

It wasn't at all physical though, my body was just lying there. It was completely mental, there was no physical pain (other than a headache). I think it just had to do with what i was thinking about before that, because actually right before i crashed my car wouldn't shift into 5th gear and i was trying to imagine why this was happening. Then i crashed and low and behold my consciousness went into the realm of mechanics - which wasn't really fun. I didn't actually physically feel the experience, rather it was so lucid that it was scary and i couldn't fully let go of my body and trying to rationalize how my body could have turned into gears. It wasn't my body though, i didn't really turn into gears.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
stubs
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4/25/2012 10:45:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/25/2012 10:28:51 AM, CrazyPerson wrote:


It wasn't at all physical though, my body was just lying there. It was completely mental, there was no physical pain (other than a headache). I think it just had to do with what i was thinking about before that, because actually right before i crashed my car wouldn't shift into 5th gear and i was trying to imagine why this was happening. Then i crashed and low and behold my consciousness went into the realm of mechanics - which wasn't really fun. I didn't actually physically feel the experience, rather it was so lucid that it was scary and i couldn't fully let go of my body and trying to rationalize how my body could have turned into gears. It wasn't my body though, i didn't really turn into gears.

Doesn't that sort of sound like a dream? People often dream of things they were thinking about before they sleep. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that this was Hell?