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Can God

thett3
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4/24/2012 10:54:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can a maximally great being create another maximally great being? Why or why not?
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"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
CrazyPerson
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4/24/2012 10:58:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 10:54:23 PM, thett3 wrote:
Can a maximally great being create another maximally great being? Why or why not?

I don't know.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
Mirza
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4/24/2012 11:01:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No. The maximal being is the designer (i.e., first cause), and creating another maximal being is logically impossible. He wouldn't be the designer, but designed (a creature).
OberHerr
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4/24/2012 11:01:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah, same as CP.

Guess you better ask him that once you get to heaven.
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thett3
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4/24/2012 11:03:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:01:22 PM, Mirza wrote:
No. The maximal being is the designer (i.e., first cause), and creating another maximal being is logically impossible. He wouldn't be the designer, but designed (a creature).

But doesn't God not have to follow logic by virtue of being maximal?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
phantom
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4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:06:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 10:54:23 PM, thett3 wrote:
Can a maximally great being create another maximally great being? Why or why not?

The created maximally great being (cM) wouldn't be great in all possible worlds, for there would be a world in which its greatness isn't exemplified (the world in which the uncreated maximally great being refrained from creating anything).
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:07:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:05:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What is "maximally great", "creation" and "being"?

The ontological question doesn't require an epistemological answer first.
OberHerr
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4/24/2012 11:08:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why is it all these God omnipotent threads always manage to make my head hurt? >:(
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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CrazyPerson
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4/24/2012 11:08:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Well, we can clone humans though. Not sure who's in charge of giving the OK or whatever, but they've done it to everything else.

I think the idea of God should reside in being the umbrella of the universe. I don't think he can duplicate himself it would just make him twice as big. Haha.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
thett3
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4/24/2012 11:09:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Then why assume that there is only one God?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/24/2012 11:10:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:08:46 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Well, we can clone humans though. Not sure who's in charge of giving the OK or whatever, but they've done it to everything else.

I think the idea of God should reside in being the umbrella of the universe. I don't think he can duplicate himself it would just make him twice as big. Haha.

But when we're cloning we;re just copying the genome God created (presuming his existence). To actually create a being greeater than oursleves we would have to do it ex nihilo
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FREEDO
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4/24/2012 11:11:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:07:24 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What is "maximally great", "creation" and "being"?

The ontological question doesn't require an epistemological answer first.

Of course not. In fact, it's a lot easier to talk about things without analyzing what we are actually talking about. But I choose to do that because it creates confusion and I am a very confused man.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
phantom
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4/24/2012 11:11:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:08:46 PM, CrazyPerson wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Well, we can clone humans though. Not sure who's in charge of giving the OK or whatever, but they've done it to everything else.

That is true.

I think the idea of God should reside in being the umbrella of the universe. I don't think he can duplicate himself it would just make him twice as big. Haha.

Oh yes, I think we differ in our view of God :P
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:12:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:07:24 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What is "maximally great", "creation" and "being"?

The ontological question doesn't require an epistemological answer first.

Of course not. In fact, it's a lot easier to talk about things without analyzing what we are actually talking about. But I choose to do that because it creates confusion and I am a very confused man.

We all are... except women.
FREEDO
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4/24/2012 11:17:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:12:05 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:07:24 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What is "maximally great", "creation" and "being"?

The ontological question doesn't require an epistemological answer first.

Of course not. In fact, it's a lot easier to talk about things without analyzing what we are actually talking about. But I choose to do that because it creates confusion and I am a very confused man.

We all are... except women.

lol. That's why God must be a woman.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.
royalpaladin
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4/24/2012 11:18:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:17:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:12:05 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:11:07 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:07:24 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What is "maximally great", "creation" and "being"?

The ontological question doesn't require an epistemological answer first.

Of course not. In fact, it's a lot easier to talk about things without analyzing what we are actually talking about. But I choose to do that because it creates confusion and I am a very confused man.

We all are... except women.

lol. That's why God must be a woman.
Stop telling people about me ;)
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/24/2012 11:19:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Yes, you're right I think. It's the distinction between maximal and common omnipotence I suppose.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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4/24/2012 11:22:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:09:03 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Then why assume that there is only one God?

1. That may depend on religious beliefs. If you're Christian the Bible says there is only one God. Now obviously that's not to say, in the future there won't be more Gods. But I don't think there's anything in the Bible to hint that other Gods exist/will exist. Though if you're Mormon that's an entirely different matter.

2. Even if we do negate the premise that God can create a being as great as himself, your question is still valid, as lesser Gods are still Gods, unless you believe God necessarily entails omnipotence. So irrespective of my post, that is still a viable question, and I think we should all count it as possible.

3. I don't, but most people do, I just generally act as if there is only one. And I do believe there is only one God. But again, I do not rule out the idea that there may be more.

4. I don't necessarily hold the view that he can create another maximally great being, I just slightly lean that way. (Though I'll probably just change my mind in a few hours.)
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.
thett3
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4/24/2012 11:25:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.

Then refute it. I'm not saying this destroys the possibility of a maximally great being, I'm sure it can be refuted. I just want it explained how.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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4/24/2012 11:26:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:09:03 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Then why assume that there is only one God?

1. That may depend on religious beliefs. If you're Christian the Bible says there is only one God. Now obviously that's not to say, in the future there won't be more Gods. But I don't think there's anything in the Bible to hint that other Gods exist/will exist. Though if you're Mormon that's an entirely different matter.

That's a really good point. Understood.

2. Even if we do negate the premise that God can create a being as great as himself, your question is still valid, as lesser Gods are still Gods, unless you believe God necessarily entails omnipotence. So irrespective of my post, that is still a viable question, and I think we should all count it as possible.

3. I don't, but most people do, I just generally act as if there is only one. And I do believe there is only one God. But again, I do not rule out the idea that there may be more.

4. I don't necessarily hold the view that he can create another maximally great being, I just slightly lean that way. (Though I'll probably just change my mind in a few hours.)

Maybe you can just stop believing in Maximal omnipotence as I have
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
phantom
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4/24/2012 11:27:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:25:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.

Then refute it. I'm not saying this destroys the possibility of a maximally great being, I'm sure it can be refuted. I just want it explained how.

God's actions are required to correlate with logic.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
CrazyPerson
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4/24/2012 11:27:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:25:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.

Then refute it. I'm not saying this destroys the possibility of a maximally great being, I'm sure it can be refuted. I just want it explained how.

I almost attempted to refute RP but this one is tricky. The term omnipotence is not really well defined within any group.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/24/2012 11:28:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:27:06 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:25:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.

Then refute it. I'm not saying this destroys the possibility of a maximally great being, I'm sure it can be refuted. I just want it explained how.

God's actions are required to correlate with logic.

Agreed, but that makes him not maximally omnipotent, but R_A said it doesnt refute maximilty
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:30:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:25:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.

Then refute it. I'm not saying this destroys the possibility of a maximally great being, I'm sure it can be refuted. I just want it explained how.

Did you see my answer earlier to the forum topic? ... There's no need to 'refute' the paradox if it's meaningless question.

1) No one knows just what omnipotence is, we simply don't stand in a good epistemic position to know.
2) If omniscience is taken to mean "knows all true propositions and all logically possible worlds" and omnipotence to mean "the ability to actualize any broadly logical state of affairs, etc" then it's obvious how asking these so called paradox's are like asking God to create a married bachelor, or round square... they're just meaningless.

I will say however, they are useful in getting a firmer grasp on the ontology of all power / maximally great, etc.
phantom
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4/24/2012 11:31:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:26:19 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:22:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:09:03 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:05:51 PM, phantom wrote:
I think the question is, could God make something that is equal to him in greatness. Observations from this world would suggest that you can indeed create something more superior than yourself. Now obviously humans can't create other living beings, but if they could I think they could produce a creature that is not equal but even greater than us. God is a different matter, but I lean to the idea that he could create a being as great as himself.

Then why assume that there is only one God?

1. That may depend on religious beliefs. If you're Christian the Bible says there is only one God. Now obviously that's not to say, in the future there won't be more Gods. But I don't think there's anything in the Bible to hint that other Gods exist/will exist. Though if you're Mormon that's an entirely different matter.

That's a really good point. Understood.

2. Even if we do negate the premise that God can create a being as great as himself, your question is still valid, as lesser Gods are still Gods, unless you believe God necessarily entails omnipotence. So irrespective of my post, that is still a viable question, and I think we should all count it as possible.

3. I don't, but most people do, I just generally act as if there is only one. And I do believe there is only one God. But again, I do not rule out the idea that there may be more.

4. I don't necessarily hold the view that he can create another maximally great being, I just slightly lean that way. (Though I'll probably just change my mind in a few hours.)

Maybe you can just stop believing in Maximal omnipotence as I have

I used to rather strongly believe God was not a maximally great being. Now I'm not sure. I think it seems more logical that the creator of the universe, would have be maximally great, though I used to view that standpoint as illogical.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Reason_Alliance
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4/24/2012 11:31:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/24/2012 11:28:22 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:27:06 PM, phantom wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:25:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:24:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 4/24/2012 11:17:54 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
This is a fundamental paradox that demonstrates that God really isn't omnipotent. If he can create a being more powerful than he is, he is not omnipotent. If he cannot create a more powerful being, he is not omnipotent.

Again, another incoherent paradox irrelevant to the existence of a Max great being... these paradox's are all outdated.

Then refute it. I'm not saying this destroys the possibility of a maximally great being, I'm sure it can be refuted. I just want it explained how.

God's actions are required to correlate with logic.

Agreed, but that makes him not maximally omnipotent, but R_A said it doesnt refute maximilty

How does that follow when nobody even knows what maximal greatness is?