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Philosophical Question

Republican95
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7/31/2009 9:09:13 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Here is a fun question to throw around about God and really confuse your friends.

If the Christian God was to exist (and one of his qualities included being all-powerful) could he create a rock so big that he could not lift it?

Interesting...

Here is my answer:

Well: It would depend on the mindset of God. If he WANTED to create a rock so big he couldn't lift it than he could, in definition, do that. If he was just out creating rocks one day and he happened to make a really big one, he would be able to lift it.
I-am-a-panda
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7/31/2009 10:25:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The question posed here is that if a supreme being with unlimited power existed, could he create something that he could not lift.

Of course, most people would have noticed the paradox here. The supreme being, "god", has unlimited power. He could create such a rock, but then again, he has unlimited power and could lift it.

It then becomes a question of Infinity.

Of course, the question itself becomes an argument against a being of unlimited power. If he has infinite power, could he create such a thing. If he couldn't, he does not have infinite power. If he does and cannot lift it, he does not have infinite power.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cody_Franklin
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7/31/2009 10:55:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Personally, on the idea of omnipotence, I don't think he could make a rock so big he couldn't lift it, because omnipotence isn't so much having every power you can make up, it's having every powerful that would actually exist; since, to my knowledge, the power to make a rock so big that one cannot lift it does not exist, the Christian God, in this case, doesn't have to have this ability; all-powerful = having all possible, existing powers, =/= made up, logically paradoxical powers. But, this is all dependent on whether you believe in God from the start.
JBlake
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7/31/2009 11:49:11 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 10:55:28 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Personally, on the idea of omnipotence, I don't think he could make a rock so big he couldn't lift it, because omnipotence isn't so much having every power you can make up, it's having every powerful that would actually exist; since, to my knowledge, the power to make a rock so big that one cannot lift it does not exist, the Christian God, in this case, doesn't have to have this ability; all-powerful = having all possible, existing powers, =/= made up, logically paradoxical powers. But, this is all dependent on whether you believe in God from the start.

That's silly... Theists claim that the Christian God created the entire universe. That includes rocks &ct. Therefore, it is not a "made up" power, but an existing one. Add that to the fact that they (including you, just now) claim that God is all-powerful and you have this paradox.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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7/31/2009 11:59:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 11:49:11 AM, JBlake wrote:
At 7/31/2009 10:55:28 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Personally, on the idea of omnipotence, I don't think he could make a rock so big he couldn't lift it, because omnipotence isn't so much having every power you can make up, it's having every powerful that would actually exist; since, to my knowledge, the power to make a rock so big that one cannot lift it does not exist, the Christian God, in this case, doesn't have to have this ability; all-powerful = having all possible, existing powers, =/= made up, logically paradoxical powers. But, this is all dependent on whether you believe in God from the start.

That's silly... Theists claim that the Christian God created the entire universe. That includes rocks &ct. Therefore, it is not a "made up" power, but an existing one. Add that to the fact that they (including you, just now) claim that God is all-powerful and you have this paradox.

Paradox is another word for contradiction.
And since the universe does not contradict itself,
God does not exist.

BOOM, BABY!
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
TheSkeptic
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7/31/2009 12:06:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This type of question is simply a fun way of asking whether or not an omnipotent entity can break the laws of logic, namely the law of identity.

First of all, an entity creating something logically contradictory isn't even physically impossible, let alone logically possible (the difference between the two is that while it's currently physically impossible to travel faster than light, it's logically possible).

If the theist claims that God can violate the laws of logic, then he has put himself in murky waters. I actually contend that an omnipotent entity (let's just say the Christian God for now) needs to abide by the laws of logic - I can get into why that is, but that's another whole debate concerning the nature of his existence.
Republican95
Posts: 111
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7/31/2009 1:32:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What everyone seems to be missing is that fact that the quality of omnipotence allows for the bending of logic.

A truly omnipotent being would not have to follow the definition of what omnipotence is and what it isn't; it can do whatever it pleases.

Going on this assumption, the paradox proves nothing.
MTGandP
Posts: 702
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7/31/2009 1:41:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 1:32:24 PM, Republican95 wrote:
What everyone seems to be missing is that fact that the quality of omnipotence allows for the bending of logic.

A truly omnipotent being would not have to follow the definition of what omnipotence is and what it isn't; it can do whatever it pleases.
Actually, it does have to follow the definition. That's like saying that a chair doesn't have to be a chair. It does, because we defined it that way.

The problem is, you can't say "everything" (as in "God can do everything") without using logic. So if you start saying that the rules of logic do not apply, then you can no longer define "everything", and the concept of omnipotence becomes meaningless.
Cody_Franklin
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7/31/2009 1:42:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 11:49:11 AM, JBlake wrote:
At 7/31/2009 10:55:28 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Personally, on the idea of omnipotence, I don't think he could make a rock so big he couldn't lift it, because omnipotence isn't so much having every power you can make up, it's having every powerful that would actually exist; since, to my knowledge, the power to make a rock so big that one cannot lift it does not exist, the Christian God, in this case, doesn't have to have this ability; all-powerful = having all possible, existing powers, =/= made up, logically paradoxical powers. But, this is all dependent on whether you believe in God from the start.

That's silly... Theists claim that the Christian God created the entire universe. That includes rocks &ct. Therefore, it is not a "made up" power, but an existing one. Add that to the fact that they (including you, just now) claim that God is all-powerful and you have this paradox.

I never claim that god has infinite, logically impossible powers. I'm saying that, if God exists, and IF he is omnipotent, as theists assume, then he would only have a very distinct, albeit very large range of powers; when we say all-powerful, we mean just that; an entity possessing all possible powers; as creating a stone so heavy that one cannot lift it is entirely impossible, we can't expect God to possess this power, as it is one that does not exist (as God only has powers that exist); also, this assumes that God exists, that he is omnipotent, and that he has to obey the laws of logic, all of which are very much faithful assertions.
PervRat
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7/31/2009 2:44:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Now now, be a good Christian, accept things on blind faith. Questions are evil and the work of the devil. So sayeth thee all of thee right.
Chuckles
Posts: 274
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7/31/2009 2:48:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 9:09:13 AM, Republican95 wrote:
Here is a fun question to throw around about God and really confuse your friends.

If the Christian God was to exist (and one of his qualities included being all-powerful) could he create a rock so big that he could not lift it?

Interesting...

Here is my answer:

Well: It would depend on the mindset of God. If he WANTED to create a rock so big he couldn't lift it than he could, in definition, do that. If he was just out creating rocks one day and he happened to make a really big one, he would be able to lift it.

This is what Homer asks Flanders on the Simpson's episode where he gets a crayon removed from his brain. But i like his version better:
Could God microwave a burrito so hot that he couldn't eat it?
"Pumas are wretched beasts with enourmous salty genitals."-MadMonkey889

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: QUIT USING LOGIC

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Kleptin
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7/31/2009 5:48:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 9:09:13 AM, Republican95 wrote:
Here is a fun question to throw around about God and really confuse your friends.

If the Christian God was to exist (and one of his qualities included being all-powerful) could he create a rock so big that he could not lift it?

Interesting...

Here is my answer:

Well: It would depend on the mindset of God. If he WANTED to create a rock so big he couldn't lift it than he could, in definition, do that. If he was just out creating rocks one day and he happened to make a really big one, he would be able to lift it.

This argument reduces to absurdity only if you concede that God is bound by logic. Theists don't have a problem with that.
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wjmelements
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7/31/2009 6:27:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Ah, the Paradox of the Stone (a.k.a., Omnipotence Paradox).

Which infinity is greater? The number of numbers or the number of numbers?
Stupid questions only yield stupid answers.

The very concept of infinity yields contradictions. Any number times infinity is infinity. Any number times zero is zero. So what happens when you multiply infinity and zero?
In the same manner, there are more numbers than odd numbers in any integer sequence unless the sequence is infinite.
Also, infinity minus a number is still infinity. Infinity minus infinity is not zero, contradicting the zero property of subtraction.
Infinity divided by infinity is not 1, contradicting the identity property of division.

The list goes on endlessly. CONCLUSION: the concept of infinity yields contradictions. However, infinity does exist in reality, despite contradicting even the law of noncontradiction. If infinity can do it, why can't God?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
PieofLife
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7/31/2009 6:33:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Does it really exist, wjmelements? Infinity is more of a useful mathematical concept than something that actually exists. The same can be said about numbers, but numbers directly apply to nature in a way that infinity doesn't. Give me an example of infinity in the universe. And no, the universe is not infinitely large. It is just really really really big. And it keeps getting bigger at a speed faster than the speed of light.
"As one's circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of the darkness surrounding it."
--Albert Einstein
GeoLaureate8
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7/31/2009 6:36:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 6:33:37 PM, PieofLife wrote:
Does it really exist, wjmelements? Infinity is more of a useful mathematical concept than something that actually exists. The same can be said about numbers, but numbers directly apply to nature in a way that infinity doesn't. Give me an example of infinity in the universe. And no, the universe is not infinitely large. It is just really really really big. And it keeps getting bigger at a speed faster than the speed of light.

The Universe is infinite. Do you think there is an invisible wall where it just stops? If there was, something must exist on the otherside of that wall. There is always something. You will never reach the end of the Universe. To assert that there is an invisible wall that makes the Universe finite is ludicrous.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wjmelements
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7/31/2009 7:26:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 6:33:37 PM, PieofLife wrote:
Does it really exist, wjmelements? Infinity is more of a useful mathematical concept than something that actually exists. The same can be said about numbers, but numbers directly apply to nature in a way that infinity doesn't. Give me an example of infinity in the universe. And no, the universe is not infinitely large. It is just really really really big. And it keeps getting bigger at a speed faster than the speed of light.

Agree with Geo. There is also an infinite number of angles, numbers, fractions, and curves.
There is an infinity in the volume of space. There is infinity in the continuance of time. Infinity exists.

PieofLife: Where does the universe end? If I travel off in a direction for eternity, will I hit some boundary and come back? No, I won't.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GodSands
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7/31/2009 7:35:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Comparing a rock in general with God, is illogical, God is a spirit, a rock isn't. It does not mean God cannot still create and move physical things. Ghosts are spirits and they have been known to move physical items. God can lift any weight, a rock or not. God can create anything, and therefore God cannot create a rock too heavy, it defines a God in that case. God also exceeds into dimensions above the 4th, there is no limit to what God can do, there for no limit to what God can create, and lift in this case. So I believe.
regebro
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8/1/2009 9:18:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 1:32:24 PM, Republican95 wrote:
What everyone seems to be missing is that fact that the quality of omnipotence allows for the bending of logic.

A truly omnipotent being would not have to follow the definition of what omnipotence is and what it isn't; it can do whatever it pleases.

Going on this assumption, the paradox proves nothing.

This is one of the only answers here that doesn't over complicate things. Thanks for that. :-)

Yes, an omnipotent being can lift stones that he can't lift.The answer to *any* question starting with "Can God..." must be answered with "Yes".
So prove me wrong, then.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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8/1/2009 12:31:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The list goes on endlessly. CONCLUSION: the concept of infinity yields contradictions. However, infinity does exist in reality, despite contradicting even the law of noncontradiction. If infinity can do it, why can't God?

No, the concept of infinity does not yield contradictions in of itself. There are many examples of "actual infinities", such as walking from point A to point B. Nothing in reality can contradict the law of identity, that's absurd. Things behave as they behave.

And as an off note, it's not clear whether or not the universe is finite or infinite. After all, the diameter of the observable universe is around 93 billion light years. What might be at the edge? I'm not sure - perhaps a wormhole or something fun like that.
PieofLife
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8/1/2009 1:47:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Skeptic, the evidence seems to suggest that the universe is finite. Flat, boundless, and finite. By flat I mean that the universe is accelerating outwards at a constant rate. By boundless yet finite I mean that although the universe has a finite area, you can keep going on and on and on and on and never hit the edge. Kinda like a 3-D balloon: it has a finite size, but you can't reach the edge, because it doesn't have one.
"As one's circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of the darkness surrounding it."
--Albert Einstein
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/1/2009 2:10:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 1:47:34 PM, PieofLife wrote:
Skeptic, the evidence seems to suggest that the universe is finite. Flat, boundless, and finite. By flat I mean that the universe is accelerating outwards at a constant rate. By boundless yet finite I mean that although the universe has a finite area, you can keep going on and on and on and on and never hit the edge. Kinda like a 3-D balloon: it has a finite size, but you can't reach the edge, because it doesn't have one.

You believe the Universe is flat? Haven't we been through this already with the earth? lol. Yes, I understand that we actually did an angular laser measurement of the Universe and it appeared flat, but you could to that in front of your house and the ground will appear flat. The earth is still round though. Just like our Universe. As you suggest, our Universe is expanding outwards in all directions, but this would create a sphere, not a flat surface. If it were flat, it would only have expanded in planar directions, not every direction.

Also, how can something be finite and boundless? If something is without bounds, it is infinite. Boundless = Infinite. There are no invisible walls in the Universe. You really think you can reach the end of the Universe? Of course not, there is no end.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/1/2009 2:34:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 2:10:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
You believe the Universe is flat? Haven't we been through this already with the earth? lol. Yes, I understand that we actually did an angular laser measurement of the Universe and it appeared flat, but you could to that in front of your house and the ground will appear flat. The earth is still round though. Just like our Universe. As you suggest, our Universe is expanding outwards in all directions, but this would create a sphere, not a flat surface.

Yes, but that's not what "flat" means in this context. What it means is that the dimensions themselves are not curved.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
So prove me wrong, then.
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/1/2009 5:10:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 9:09:13 AM, Republican95 wrote:
Here is a fun question to throw around about God and really confuse your friends.

If the Christian God was to exist (and one of his qualities included being all-powerful) could he create a rock so big that he could not lift it?

Interesting...

Here is my answer:

Well: It would depend on the mindset of God. If he WANTED to create a rock so big he couldn't lift it than he could, in definition, do that. If he was just out creating rocks one day and he happened to make a really big one, he would be able to lift it.

The omnipotence paradox is a fallacious argument - but it DOES have an answer.

The correct answer is that if God is truly omnipotent, etc.... that such a rock cannot exist. God can no more create a rock he cannot lift than he could create a three-sided square or a hexagonal circle.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/1/2009 7:33:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 12:31:18 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
The list goes on endlessly. CONCLUSION: the concept of infinity yields contradictions. However, infinity does exist in reality, despite contradicting even the law of noncontradiction. If infinity can do it, why can't God?

No, the concept of infinity does not yield contradictions in of itself.

Did you read my examples? If infinity is infinite, then it includes within itself other infinities that can not be considered lesser than the original. This defies other laws of nature.

Nothing in reality can contradict the law of identity, that's absurd. Things behave as they behave.

I have shown how the concept of infinity yields contradictions and that it still exists. This defies the concept "contradictions cannot exist in reality".
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
PieofLife
Posts: 23
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8/1/2009 10:22:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
GeoLaureate8, by finite and boundless I mean that the universe has a finite size (though a very very big one), and yet we can never reach the edge, because the universe is curved like a balloon, or like the Earth. The Earth is finite, and yet we can never walk over the edge of it. By flat I don't mean flat in the sense that the universe isn't curved. As regebro said, it means that the dimensions aren't curved. Three sides of a triangle add up to 180 degrees in a flat universe. In a closed or open universe, a big enough triangle will show you that this is not the case. Two parallel lines will always stay parallel in a flat universe. Not so in a closed or open universe. The universe is accelerating outward at a constant rate. It isn't going to come back together in a Big Crunch, and the rate of acceleration isn't going to increase.
"As one's circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of the darkness surrounding it."
--Albert Einstein
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/1/2009 10:30:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 7/31/2009 1:32:24 PM, Republican95 wrote:
What everyone seems to be missing is that fact that the quality of omnipotence allows for the bending of logic.

REALITY does not allow for the "bending" of logic.
If your God can break paradoxes, then obviously, he's not subject to the laws of reality.

Which means GOD IS NOT REAL.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
regebro
Posts: 1,152
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8/1/2009 11:04:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 10:30:39 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
REALITY does not allow for the "bending" of logic.

You don't know that. You only know that the part of reality that you can experience doesn't seem to allow for this. It does come down to what you mean with "reality", but you seem to mean what others call "universe", and referring to universal laws.

If your God can break paradoxes, then obviously, he's not subject to the laws of reality.

Can the God who cretaed the universe break the universal laws? Yes, of course.

Which means GOD IS NOT REAL.

All you have said now is that the creator god is not a part of what he created.
So prove me wrong, then.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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8/2/2009 1:57:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 7:33:45 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/1/2009 12:31:18 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
The list goes on endlessly. CONCLUSION: the concept of infinity yields contradictions. However, infinity does exist in reality, despite contradicting even the law of noncontradiction. If infinity can do it, why can't God?

No, the concept of infinity does not yield contradictions in of itself.

Did you read my examples? If infinity is infinite, then it includes within itself other infinities that can not be considered lesser than the original. This defies other laws of nature.

As I said before, the only type of infinities that exist in reality are "actual infinities". Since these are complete sets, they can be resolved with calculus. For example, take Zeno's famous paradoxes:

If you want to walk from point A to point B, you first have to walk halfway, which we will call point C. But before you walk from point A to point C, you have to walk halfway, which we will call point D. And so on and so forth - leading to infinity. Zeno actually concludes that since infinities can't exist, motion is impossible. This, of course, is ridiculous so how do we resolve this? Simple - the time to walk from point A to point C is half the amount of time to walk from point A to point B. So do math, and eventually it will add up. As the distance decreases, the time needed to cover those distances also decreases.

This is what modern calculus does - it gets a finite sum from an infinite amount of things that get progressively smaller. Therefore, there are no contradictions.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/2/2009 2:19:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/1/2009 11:04:42 PM, regebro wrote:
At 8/1/2009 10:30:39 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
REALITY does not allow for the "bending" of logic.

You don't know that.
Uhh, Yes I do!

If your God can break paradoxes, then obviously, he's not subject to the laws of reality.

Can the God who cretaed the universe break the universal laws? Yes, of course.
If he is anywhere in a universe with consistent laws, then he must also follow those laws.

Which means GOD IS NOT REAL.

All you have said now is that the creator god is not a part of what he created.
Are you suggesting that God exists outside of existence?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?