Total Posts:242|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Question to all protestants?.

SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.
WriterDave
Posts: 934
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 2:59:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not a protestant and so can't answer, but the next time you have five questions for X, make your subject line "Five questions for X."
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

Edit To Civilize, with FAQs: http://bit.ly...
Insult Ownership: http://bit.ly...
Haters: http://bit.ly...

"I said you are a fake, a phony, and a fraud, but that doesn't mean I think you're putting on an act." --Innomen
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 3:08:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:59:57 PM, WriterDave wrote:
Not a protestant and so can't answer, but the next time you have five questions for X, make your subject line "Five questions for X."

I left out an 's' after question it was accidental.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 4:45:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:59:57 PM, WriterDave wrote:
Not a protestant and so can't answer, but the next time you have five questions for X, make your subject line "Five questions for X."

That was the most worthless criticism I have seen in a post. Do you just run around criticizing people? Yep, you would fit right in at Church. You need Jesus :)
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 5:35:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In before the protestants!

At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

For the same reason the Catholics do.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible ...

For the same reason the Catholics don't accept the Protestant interpretation.

... when that is were it originated?

Catholicism is where the Catholic bible originated. Protestantism is where the Protestant bible originated.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

The Protestants left some books out of their bible for the same reason the Catholics left some books out of theirs.

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?

Because "the place the Bible originated" was clearly corrupt and self-serving in its interpretation.

Also ...

Which is to say, Sixthly.

... if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.

We should do the best we can, which clearly doesn't involve ignoring the bible itself in favor of the corrupt and self-serving interpretations of the bible foisted on people by the Catholic Church.

How did I do? Did I get them all right?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 5:57:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Most wish to retain glory for themselves(works oreiented) and some wish to make the word into what suits there like's and dislikes(Osteen)

Once you understand LAW and Gospel, you can pretty much eliminate false teachings left and right.. most of the 35,000 do not even preach both.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

I assume, by this, you are refering to the ROMAN Catholic church.. and they did not write the books, the placed them together.

Once again though, if you listen to what they teach, and compare to what is written, in either bibile(minus a few books), they are manipulating it to mean what they want.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Because those books are not scripture.. they conflict with the rest of the Bible.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

The holy spirit.. as it should.

the more you read and understand, the more you dislike what you are reading.. the less you can relate to the righteous man, the more you know you are on the right track..lol

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?.

The place the bible is a book of books.. written by different people..

so 'sola scriptura' still stands, the scriptures did not originate from the Roman Catholic Chruch...

Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.


Buy yourself a strongs concordance.. if you read 2 different versions - check the meanings out yourself. It's not to hard to figure out.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 6:14:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

They're all similar if not identical and differ mainly in Church setting, style and organization.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Because the Catholic church was selling absolution of sins instead of giving it, they were refusing to give people the Bible allowing only priests to read it and the Vatican was corrupt at the time of Martin Luther.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Not our call, that was Martin Luther and other church heads.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

In the people, the Word of God and in the Pastors. We don't need someone of authority to tell us how to think.

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.

The people interpret how they want to.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 6:16:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 5:35:21 PM, wiploc wrote:
In before the protestants!

At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

For the same reason the Catholics do.

Please tell me then what branch of protestantism is it?
Catholicism is the orginal Church.
Catholics can trace the popes right back to St.Peter. Where does your authority come from?

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible ...

For the same reason the Catholics don't accept the Protestant interpretation.

The protestant interpretation was the exact same as the Catholic version only they left out the bits that did'nt suit them.

Do you know why certain books were left out?

... when that is were it originated?

Catholicism is where the Catholic bible originated. Protestantism is where the Protestant bible originated.

Okay well why was the Catholic Bible good enough for 1500 odd years?.
Also if the protestant Bible is the inspired word of God why did he inspire it to be practically the same as the Catholic one.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

The Protestants left some books out of their bible for the same reason the Catholics left some books out of theirs.

Well give me the reasons. All different sects of christianty in the early Church were in confusion so they came together and guided by the Holy Spirit they compiled the Bible. Now tell me your reasons.

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?

Because "the place the Bible originated" was clearly corrupt and self-serving in its interpretation.

Yes, there was people within the Church corrupt and there still is away to many if you ask me. However the teachings of the Church are infallable, because peple behaved badly does not mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Yet from this so called self seving institution you still decided to practically take the exact same Bible, and go do things your own way. If the next church did not suit then go setup another one and another one etc.

Also ...

Which is to say, Sixthly.

... if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.

We should do the best we can, which clearly doesn't involve ignoring the bible itself in favor of the corrupt and self-serving interpretations of the bible foisted on people by the Catholic Church.

No, you are completely right we should not ignore the Bible. No one is saying we should after all it is the divinely inspired word of God. However we should not just be allowed to muddle through and guess at what God is telling us.

What did the early christians do before the Bible was compiled?. They relied on oral tradition.

How did I do? Did I get them all right?

No. None in fact.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 6:27:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We don't need "authority" to be religious and right with God, that's one of the founding principles of Protestantism. I don't give a shizz about who you can trace back to who. That means nothing.

The authority is in the Spirit and Body of Christ, in the Word and in the people.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 6:37:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 5:57:32 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Most wish to retain glory for themselves(works oreiented) and some wish to make the word into what suits there like's and dislikes(Osteen)

Once you understand LAW and Gospel, you can pretty much eliminate false teachings left and right.. most of the 35,000 do not even preach both.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

I assume, by this, you are refering to the ROMAN Catholic church.. and they did not write the books, the placed them together.

I never said they wrote the books. Also the Catholic Church is the only Church that can go right back to the early Christians who were then the Church so, in away yes the Catholic Church did compile the NT.

Once again though, if you listen to what they teach, and compare to what is written, in either bible(minus a few books), they are manipulating it to mean what they want.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Because those books are not scripture.. they conflict with the rest of the Bible.

No. Martin Luther rejected them because the original texts for these books were only in Greek and they could not find Hebrew version of these texts, so he dismissed them as being inspired by God.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

The holy spirit.. as it should.
Well the Holy Spirit definitely is not guiding everybody otherwise it's telling various people different things.

the more you read and understand, the more you dislike what you are reading.. the less you can relate to the righteous man, the more you know you are on the right track..lol

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?.

The place the bible is a book of books.. written by different people..

so 'sola scriptura' still stands, the scriptures did not originate from the Roman Catholic Church...

Yes, they did, the ones pertaining to NT. The Church compiled the Bible , the early Christians though were not called the Catholic Church that is what they were. The authority of that same Church still exists today.

Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.


Buy yourself a strongs concordance.. if you read 2 different versions - check the meanings out yourself. It's not to hard to figure out.

So you take the book that you also believe was guided into the compilation it is now through the Church. However you do not accept the Churches interpretation of it. Rather you accept your own interpretation
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 6:50:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
We're all Christian and we should all believe that Christ died for our Sins and on the Third Day rose for the savior of humanity.

If we believe this everything else is just frivolous.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 6:55:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 6:50:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We're all Christian and we should all believe that Christ died for our Sins and on the Third Day rose for the savior of humanity.

If we believe this everything else is just frivolous.


Agreed.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 7:02:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 6:14:50 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

They're all similar if not identical and differ mainly in Church setting, style and organization.

Some are very different, in early protestantism their churches and their teachings were very similar to catholicism. However the more everyone disgreed the more churches there were and the more dilluted their teachings became. Even today some protestant churches are practically the same in every way to the Catholic Church, to the complete opposite end o the spectrum were the Catholic Church is called the whore of Babylon, and the pope the antichrist. This is how much venom comes from some forms of protestantism. They refuse to aknowledge that that is were their faith orginated from.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Because the Catholic church was selling absolution of sins instead of giving it, they were refusing to give people the Bible allowing only priests to read it and the Vatican was corrupt at the time of Martin Luther.

First of all if government has good laws though those running government are corrupt you don't change the laws and start new government, you sort out the government you already have. The Catholic Church had and has people within it who are corrupt, now what do we have many churches and much corruption.
Secondly most lay people back then where illiterate and poor, and Bibles were expensive and they did not refuse the Bible from anyone. Also the Bible was in Latin, which people could not read.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Not our call, that was Martin Luther and other church heads.

It should not be anybodys call, it should be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Either the orginal Catholic version was guided by the Hoy Spirit, or it wasn't. If it wasn't then how come if the protestant Bible was why is it exactly the same as the Catholic one except with bits missing.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

In the people, the Word of God and in the Pastors. We don't need someone of authority to tell us how to think.

Well obviously you do need someone if your saying your pastor. Also everyone interprets things differently, is some people right and some wrong and who do you listen to?. How do you know when you are right or wrong?.

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.

The people interpret how they want to.

The people can be wrong.
David Koresh. His followers obviously thought he was right, maybe he even thoug he was right.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 7:05:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree if we are all truly seeking God. Though I do believe some forms of christianity hold more truths than others, and one holds the complete truth.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 7:07:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 6:37:48 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/3/2012 5:57:32 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Most wish to retain glory for themselves(works oreiented) and some wish to make the word into what suits there like's and dislikes(Osteen)

Once you understand LAW and Gospel, you can pretty much eliminate false teachings left and right.. most of the 35,000 do not even preach both.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

I assume, by this, you are refering to the ROMAN Catholic church.. and they did not write the books, the placed them together.

I never said they wrote the books. Also the Catholic Church is the only Church that can go right back to the early Christians who were then the Church so, in away yes the Catholic Church did compile the NT.

If they didn't write the books, then whose to say their interpretation is the original?
I assume you know of other books which were not included in the Bible by the early Christians? if so, what was their reasons for exclusion?

Once again though, if you listen to what they teach, and compare to what is written, in either bible(minus a few books), they are manipulating it to mean what they want.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Because those books are not scripture.. they conflict with the rest of the Bible.

No. Martin Luther rejected them because the original texts for these books were only in Greek and they could not find Hebrew version of these texts, so he dismissed them as being inspired by God.

Almost the entire NT was written in greek... dismissing the books based off of this is not only redundant, but contrary to Luthers character and theology.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

The holy spirit.. as it should.
Well the Holy Spirit definitely is not guiding everybody otherwise it's telling various people different things.

Your right. Only our hearts deceive.

The pharisees and rabi's were the "originators"(in the sense you seem to mean) of the Torah, so why do we veer from there interpretation? (other then the fact they killed Christ)

the more you read and understand, the more you dislike what you are reading.. the less you can relate to the righteous man, the more you know you are on the right track..lol

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?.

The place the bible is a book of books.. written by different people..

so 'sola scriptura' still stands, the scriptures did not originate from the Roman Catholic Church...

Yes, they did, the ones pertaining to NT. The Church compiled the Bible , the early Christians though were not called the Catholic Church that is what they were. The authority of that same Church still exists today.

Ok, why do you keep saying authority? No man has authority to institute an interpretation.

Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.


Buy yourself a strongs concordance.. if you read 2 different versions - check the meanings out yourself. It's not to hard to figure out.

So you take the book that you also believe was guided into the compilation it is now through the Church. However you do not accept the Churches interpretation of it. Rather you accept your own interpretation


I accept the correct interpretation.. it's really not that hard.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 7:33:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 6:50:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We're all Christian and we should all believe that Christ died for our Sins and on the Third Day rose for the savior of humanity.

If we believe this everything else is just frivolous.

Frivolous in what sense? Whether or not one is a Christian? I don't think that any person's salvation is dependent on their doctrine of hell, for instance, but I think that these things are still quite important in another sense. Would you agree with that?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 8:05:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 7:33:04 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/3/2012 6:50:38 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
We're all Christian and we should all believe that Christ died for our Sins and on the Third Day rose for the savior of humanity.

If we believe this everything else is just frivolous.

Frivolous in what sense? Whether or not one is a Christian? I don't think that any person's salvation is dependent on their doctrine of hell, for instance, but I think that these things are still quite important in another sense. Would you agree with that?


I know you weren't directing this question to me, but i feel i can take on the task.

Salvation only requires Faith. Faith is a gift(grace) from God.

This gift is free to us(Eph. 1:4-10)

CHRIST centered is that theme of the entire Bible, and the NT shines light on what seems to be a very Dark OT.

With that said.. All other doctrines regarding - Hell fire(literal, metaphorical, annihilation), Works, suicide, drugs(Alcohol, cigs, weed, coc..etc), etc etc - are not essential and have no bearing on what matters.

NOW, thats not to say that some of those things can't influence the essential beliefs.. but everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 8:07:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 7:05:23 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
I agree if we are all truly seeking God. Though I do believe some forms of christianity hold more truths than others, and one holds the complete truth.

Romans 3:9-18

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 8:08:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.
They are all very similar

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.
The protestant interpretation makes more sense

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.
IDK, ask Martin Luther.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.
Yourself, the pastor, anyone, there is no "authority"

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.
I believe that? I never knew that
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
"Jury trials should be banned. They're nothing more than opportunities for racists to destroy lives." ~ RoyalPaladin after the Zimmerman Trial.
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 8:15:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

I am no longer a Christian anymore (in fact, I am an apostate of the religion), but I used to be a Protestant and was (and still is) a staunch anti-Catholic. I can answers these questions.
First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Because there are 35000 different ways to interpret the Bibile. Basically, all of the major denominations of Protestantism (Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.... This does not apply to smaller groups such as the Amish, the Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses) believe in the same philosphy, and just have one or two differences. Some even are just from different parts of Europe. The Anglican Church is only different from the Lutheran Church because one originated in England and the other in Germany respectively.
Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Because the Catholics omit books from the Bible. But other than that, they do not differ on interpretation of the Bible. The Catholics are strict Conservatives, worship with a lot of bells and whistles (i.e. fancy churchs), and have a pope. The Protestants are more open to social change, worship without many bells and whistles (i.e. some worship in small wood buildings), and deny the necessity of a pope and clergy. This latter difference is the main difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

No. This was the Catholics.
Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

Preachers. Just like Catholics. Only there is no higher clergy (i.e. Bishops (except in Episcopalian churchs), archbishops, cardinal and pope).
Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.
Because the scripure is the word of God. There is no room for clergy. One should only listen to God.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2012 9:50:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
lol
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
"Jury trials should be banned. They're nothing more than opportunities for racists to destroy lives." ~ RoyalPaladin after the Zimmerman Trial.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2012 5:41:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 7:07:16 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/3/2012 6:37:48 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/3/2012 5:57:32 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Most wish to retain glory for themselves(works oreiented) and some wish to make the word into what suits there like's and dislikes(Osteen)

Once you understand LAW and Gospel, you can pretty much eliminate false teachings left and right.. most of the 35,000 do not even preach both.

I thought each church can interpret the Bible in however they see fit. Now you are saying most interpret it wong. Which is it?.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

I assume, by this, you are refering to the ROMAN Catholic church.. and they did not write the books, the placed them together.

I never said they wrote the books. Also the Catholic Church is the only Church that can go right back to the early Christians who were then the Church so, in away yes the Catholic Church did compile the NT.

If they didn't write the books, then whose to say their interpretation is the original?

I did say the Catholic Church wrote th books.

I assume you know of other books which were not included in the Bible by the early Christians? if so, what was their reasons for exclusion?


Once again though, if you listen to what they teach, and compare to what is written, in either bible(minus a few books), they are manipulating it to mean what they want.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Because those books are not scripture.. they conflict with the rest of the Bible.

They do not conflict with scripture they conflicted with Martin Luthers own theology.

No. Martin Luther rejected them because the original texts for these books were only in Greek and they could not find Hebrew version of these texts, so he dismissed them as being inspired by God.

Almost the entire NT was written in greek... dismissing the books based off of this is not only redundant, but contrary to Luthers character and theology.

Most of the NT has it's origin in hebrew. Also if that is not the reason as you believe be specific and tell me where the books that were left conflicted with the rest of the Bible. Only one or two examples will be neccassary.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

The holy spirit.. as it should.
Well the Holy Spirit definitely is not guiding everybody otherwise it's telling various people different things.

Your right. Only our hearts deceive.

Well why would God want us to be decieved in matters of such importance. You woud think he would give us an authoritive place to seek the truth and give us the correct answers we seek.

The pharisees and rabi's were the "originators"(in the sense you seem to mean) of the Torah, so why do we veer from there interpretation? (other then the fact they killed Christ)

They bellieve the OT has not yet been fulfilled christians do. We are the same people our Church goes back to then, only thing is when our saviour came into the world they refusd to acknowledge this so they broke from the Church.


the more you read and understand, the more you dislike what you are reading.. the less you can relate to the righteous man, the more you know you are on the right track..lol

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?.

The place the bible is a book of books.. written by different people..

so 'sola scriptura' still stands, the scriptures did not originate from the Roman Catholic Church...

How did christians manage befoe the Bible was compiled, what did they rely on then?.

Yes, they did, the ones pertaining to NT. The Church compiled the Bible , the early Christians though were not called the Catholic Church that is what they were. The authority of that same Church still exists today.

Ok, why do you keep saying authority? No man has authority to institute an interpretation.

Jesus gave the Church it's authority. " Upon this rock I build my Church". He was talking to St.Peter. The same authority habeen passed from each pope thrugh each and every generation. "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.


Buy yourself a strongs concordance.. if you read 2 different versions - check the meanings out yourself. It's not to hard to figure out.

So you take the book that you also believe was guided into the compilation it is now through the Church. However you do not accept the Churches interpretation of it. Rather you accept your own interpretation


I accept the correct interpretation.. it's really not that hard.

I did say the orginal christian Church wrote the books of the NT. The Catholic Church is the original Church.

Also why would God leave for us to try and figure out what he wanted. Iit woud be make more sense if he left an authoritive institution to give us insruction and direction.

I don't want to try and guess what church to follow, I want the Church that holds the truth not one that is more or less saying look here is what we believe but we could be wrong. I want an authoritive certainity otherwise we are blind in the wilderess with many false prophets.

You accept the correct interpretation. Which is right over the Catholic Church and all the other protestant branches you dsagree with so why is your opinion above the opinion of the Catholic Churh and the other protestant branches you disagree with?.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2012 5:55:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 8:15:49 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

I am no longer a Christian anymore (in fact, I am an apostate of the religion), but I used to be a Protestant and was (and still is) a staunch anti-Catholic. I can answers these questions.
First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Because there are 35000 different ways to interpret the Bibile. Basically, all of the major denominations of Protestantism (Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.... This does not apply to smaller groups such as the Amish, the Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses) believe in the same philosphy, and just have one or two differences. Some even are just from different parts of Europe. The Anglican Church is only different from the Lutheran Church because one originated in England and the other in Germany respectively.
Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Because the Catholics omit books from the Bible. But other than that, they do not differ on interpretation of the Bible. The Catholics are strict Conservatives, worship with a lot of bells and whistles (i.e. fancy churchs), and have a pope. The Protestants are more open to social change, worship without many bells and whistles (i.e. some worship in small wood buildings), and deny the necessity of a pope and clergy. This latter difference is the main difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

No. This was the Catholics.
Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

Preachers. Just like Catholics. Only there is no higher clergy (i.e. Bishops (except in Episcopalian churchs), archbishops, cardinal and pope).
Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.
Because the scripure is the word of God. There is no room for clergy. One should only listen to God.

The protestant churches are very dfferent to one end you have the anglican and lutheran and other churches which are very similar to the Catholic Church. On the other end of the spectrum you have churches that do not hold onto any sort of tradition.
The Catholic Churchn did not omit books from the Bible.
So preachers have the authority to interpret the Bible. Where did this authority come from?.
How if christians should only listen to the Bible did they manage before the Bible was compiled?.
Also if you are willing to accept the Bible compiled by the Church but guided by the Holy Spirit then why are you not willing to accept that the Church is guided by the Holy Soirit in it's interpretation?.
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2012 9:54:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 5:55:41 AM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/3/2012 8:15:49 PM, Ron-Paul wrote:
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

I am no longer a Christian anymore (in fact, I am an apostate of the religion), but I used to be a Protestant and was (and still is) a staunch anti-Catholic. I can answers these questions.
First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Because there are 35000 different ways to interpret the Bibile. Basically, all of the major denominations of Protestantism (Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, etc.... This does not apply to smaller groups such as the Amish, the Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses) believe in the same philosphy, and just have one or two differences. Some even are just from different parts of Europe. The Anglican Church is only different from the Lutheran Church because one originated in England and the other in Germany respectively.
Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Because the Catholics omit books from the Bible. But other than that, they do not differ on interpretation of the Bible. The Catholics are strict Conservatives, worship with a lot of bells and whistles (i.e. fancy churchs), and have a pope. The Protestants are more open to social change, worship without many bells and whistles (i.e. some worship in small wood buildings), and deny the necessity of a pope and clergy. This latter difference is the main difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

No. This was the Catholics.
Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

Preachers. Just like Catholics. Only there is no higher clergy (i.e. Bishops (except in Episcopalian churchs), archbishops, cardinal and pope).
Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.
Because the scripure is the word of God. There is no room for clergy. One should only listen to God.

The protestant churches are very dfferent to one end you have the anglican and lutheran and other churches which are very similar to the Catholic Church. On the other end of the spectrum you have churches that do not hold onto any sort of tradition.
The Catholic Churchn did not omit books from the Bible.
Both sides omitted. The Catholics in the early days omitted many books. The bible used to be a lt bigger.
So preachers have the authority to interpret the Bible. Where did this authority come from?.
Both sides say yes, but some Protestants say no. I say no. The authority came from the pope in Catholicism and because most Protestants believe in the same thing (just without the pope)
How if christians should only listen to the Bible did they manage before the Bible was compiled?.
They did need to worry about that. The Old Testament was all written before the religion even existed and the whole New Teatament was written before 100 years after Christ.
Also if you are willing to accept the Bible compiled by the Church but guided by the Holy Spirit then why are you not willing to accept that the Church is guided by the Holy Soirit in it's interpretation?.
I don't know what this means, but if I think I get it, it is because the religion (both sides) is so contradictory. That was the reason I left the religion.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2012 3:32:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The protestant churches are very dfferent to one end you have the anglican and lutheran and other churches which are very similar to the Catholic Church. On the other end of the spectrum you have churches that do not hold onto any sort of tradition.
The Catholic Churchn did not omit books from the Bible.
Both sides omitted. The Catholics in the early days omitted many books. The bible used to be a lt bigger.

The Catholic Church did not omit books. It brought all the scripture from various different geographical places and sorted out was to be put in to make up the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There was no Bible until the Catholic Church compiled it.

So preachers have the authority to interpret the Bible. Where did this authority come from?.
Both sides say yes, but some Protestants say no. I say no. The authority came from the pope in Catholicism and because most Protestants believe in the same thing (just without the pope)

The protestants believe in most of the same things as the Catholic Church but not in the authority of Catholic Church. Well our teachings come from the authoity of the Church, if you follow most of the teachings and agree with most, why do you think the authority is wrong? when these teachings you agree with orginated in the Catholic Church in the first place.

How if christians should only listen to the Bible did they manage before the Bible was compiled?.
They did need to worry about that. The Old Testament was all written before the religion even existed and the whole New Teatament was written before 100 years after Christ.

Most people did not have these wittings or access to them, most people could not read. It was not until around 400AD the Bible was compiled.

Also if you are willing to accept the Bible compiled by the Church but guided by the Holy Spirit then why are you not willing to accept that the Church is guided by the Holy Soirit in it's interpretation?.
I don't know what this means, but if I think I get it, it is because the religion (both sides) is so contradictory. That was the reason I left the religion.

What I mean is protestantism accepted the Bible from the Church, but not what the Church teaches why the double standard?.
Ron-Paul
Posts: 2,557
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2012 4:37:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 3:32:53 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
The protestant churches are very dfferent to one end you have the anglican and lutheran and other churches which are very similar to the Catholic Church. On the other end of the spectrum you have churches that do not hold onto any sort of tradition.
The Catholic Churchn did not omit books from the Bible.
Both sides omitted. The Catholics in the early days omitted many books. The bible used to be a lt bigger.

The Catholic Church did not omit books. It brought all the scripture from various different geographical places and sorted out was to be put in to make up the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There was no Bible until the Catholic Church compiled it.

I am talking about early on, like around 500 AD. The church (which was only Catholic) omitted several books from the bible.

Plus, the Protestants had their reasons for omitting books

"1. They abound in historical and geographical inaccuracies and anachronisms.

2. They teach doctrines which are false and foster practices which are at variance with inspired Scripture.

3. They resort to literary types and display an artificiality of subject matter and styling out of keeping with inspired Scripture.

4. They lack the distinctive elements which give genuine Scripture their divine character, such as prophetic power and poetic and religious feeling."[1]
So preachers have the authority to interpret the Bible. Where did this authority come from?.
Most people say yes, but some people (all of them Protestnants, including me) say no. This authority came from the pope.
Both sides say yes, but some Protestants say no. I say no. The authority came from the pope in Catholicism and because most Protestants believe in the same thing (just without the pope)

The protestants believe in most of the same things as the Catholic Church but not in the authority of Catholic Church. Well our teachings come from the authoity of the Church, if you follow most of the teachings and agree with most, why do you think the authority is wrong? when these teachings you agree with orginated in the Catholic Church in the first place.

Because God is the supreme power. He did not ordain priests to do his job of administering the law. God laid down the laws, but the priests preached it and some changed it. And again, most people believe in the authority of the church, I just happen to be one that does not.
How if christians should only listen to the Bible did they manage before the Bible was compiled?.
I just answered that question, but again, They did need to worry about that. The Old Testament was all written before the religion even existed and the whole New Teatament was written before 100 years after Christ.
They did need to worry about that. The Old Testament was all written before the religion even existed and the whole New Teatament was written before 100 years after Christ.

Most people did not have these wittings or access to them, most people could not read. It was not until around 400AD the Bible was compiled.

The Torah had been complied for over a millenia, the tenkah for almost 500 years and the new testament within the first one hundred years. The bible was themost widespread book and was translated into almost all languages.
Also if you are willing to accept the Bible compiled by the Church but guided by the Holy Spirit then why are you not willing to accept that the Church is guided by the Holy Soirit in it's interpretation?.
I don't know what this means, but if I think I get it, it is because the religion (both sides) is so contradictory. That was the reason I left the religion.

What I mean is protestantism accepted the Bible from the Church, but not what the Church teaches why the double standard?.

The Bible is the word of God, it cannot be changed. The Protestants just don't think (and with good reason) that a church should do this whole job entirely. Plus, they reject a hierarchy because it gives someone to look up to.

Sources:

[1]: http://bible-truth.org...
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2012 2:49:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If the Church which was only Catholic that compiled the Bible how can it omit books, these are books they decide were not needed to make the Bible. There was hundreds maybe thousands bits of scripture that did not make there way into the Bible. However after the Bible was compiled the protestant reformist Martin Luther left some books out.

Now if Martin Luther was right in his theology how come protestants are not all Lutherans. Why take the books he thought was right and not accept his teachings. If his beliefs were wrong then why go by his Bible. If he thought the Catholic Bible not right then why did he accept all of it except the bits that did not fit with his theology.

Also the long list you have of all the things wrong with the books left out of the Bible are your personal opinion, I would like some specific texts and tell me what is wrong with them please?.
How can the Catholic Bible lack anything it is the same as king James only more books, and a few different words were changed because James was not happy with them.

Also you say God is the supreme power like as if I am arguing with you. However God reveals himself and what he wants through certain individuals and the Church. Like he has always done through out the ages. Also God in the person of Jesus did give us priests when he anointed the first disciples.

The NT was not compiled 100 years after Christ. Early Christians relied nearly solely on oral tradition.

The Bible was not the most widespread book. As matter of fact many protestants say the Catholic Church withheld the Bible from the ordinary laity. When they did make a lot more copies they were nearly all in Latin which was known as the language of the world as the roman empire ruled nearly all the known world.

Well I appreciate the protestants not wanting to give all the burden of translating the Bible the thing is that it is how God wanted it, the authority of the Church came from Christ himself.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/6/2012 6:28:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?.

Thirdly why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Fourthly were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?.

Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?. Also if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.

1. First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

I don't know who counted 35,000. Do you have a source for that number? Each group believes they hold the right teaching because they hold differering views of Biblical authority, Biblican inerrancy, etc.

2. why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible when that is were it originated?

Oh, the Bible never orginated with the Roman Catholic Church in the first place, and, if it did, that wouldn't prove that the Popish Church's "interpretation" is correct.

3. why when Protestantism first came about being did they leave out books in the bible?.

Because certain books were determined to be non-canonical for various reasons.

4. were does the authority of who interprets the bible for you rest?

Who said individuals need some sorta authority to interpret the Bible? Is it that cloudy, foggy, and obscure?

5. Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?

What's the "place the Bible originated?" We have three manuscripts from the late 3rd or early 4th century. As far as I know, the Sinatician Manuscript was never in the hands of the Roman Catholic church.

I'll return the favor:

1. Why has one infallible pope rescinded and nullified the appointments and actions of the previous infallible pope?

2. Why did Archbishop Purcell state that certainly "bad popes" are in the penal fires of hell?

3. Why did the Roman Catholic church dig up and burn the bones of John Wycliffe? Exactly what on earth did they accomplish?

4. Is your ultimate, when-the-smoke-clears, final authority on matters of faith an old worn-out, feeble Italian priest who happened to "politic" well enough to be voted from an fallible bishop or cardinal up to an infallible pope?

5. Has the Roman Catholic church had the nasty habit of taking measures to prevent the general public from owning Bibles, and, if the public did happen to possess them, taking further measures to remove them? Could it be that reading the Bible at home has been, to the Roman hierarchy, a bad idea?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/6/2012 6:40:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/3/2012 6:16:14 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/3/2012 5:35:21 PM, wiploc wrote:
In before the protestants!

At 5/3/2012 2:18:54 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
My Christian brothers and sisters in Christ I have a few questions, I would like for you to answer me the best you can if possible.

First of all there is over 35000 different types of Protestantism, why does each group believe they hold the right teaching?.

For the same reason the Catholics do.

Please tell me then what branch of protestantism is it?

Catholicism is the orginal Church.

No, but Roman Catholicism is a corruption of the church.

Catholics can trace the popes right back to St.Peter.

No, they can't. You can't take the Bible and prove Peter was ever in Rome, or that he was ever a pope, or that he even had a successor. Do you rely on Roman Catholic assertions as your information source?

Where does your authority come from?

Authority comes from the Bible itself, not some so-called "vicar of Christ" who, in a flash, went from "fallible" to "infallible" by a vote.

Secondly why do protestants not accept the Catholic Churches interpretation of the Bible ...

Catholicism is where the Catholic bible originated. Protestantism is where the Protestant bible originated.

Okay well why was the Catholic Bible good enough for 1500 odd years?.

There is no such thing as "the Catholic Bible" - none whatsoever




Fifthly why does protestants except only sola scripture as authority, when the place the Bible originated does not believe this?

Because "the place the Bible originated" was clearly corrupt and self-serving in its interpretation.

Yes, there was people within the Church corrupt and there still is away to many if you ask me. However the teachings of the Church are infallable,

The teachings are infallible? Why, historically, the teachings contradict themselves. What's true in the 5th century is heretical in the 20th, in Roman Catholic eyes. They flip-flop more than a politician who's sleeping with his secretary.

if the Bible is the only authority who's interpretation should we use as there is many different versions on how things should be interpreted.


No, you are completely right we should not ignore the Bible. No one is saying we should after all it is the divinely inspired word of God. However we should not just be allowed to muddle through and guess at what God is telling us.

What did the early christians do before the Bible was compiled?. They relied on oral tradition.

No, they didn't. Who told you that?

I have a question. You can return the favor: can I take the King James Bible alone and, using it as my guide, be saved from my sins and go to heaven after awhile - without ever setting foot in a Roman Catholic building or saying one "Hail, Mary". Is that possible?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/6/2012 8:10:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yes, in a book called 'faith of our fathers' also it was written along time ago so maybe there is a lot more than 35000 forms of protestantism now.

Where did the Bible orginate then? If it was not the Catholic Church?. Please enlighten me. So the inspired word of God that is compiled by the Catholic Church but they interpretted wrong, is tha what you are saying?. That is like someone telling me to draw a picture of a house me drawung a picture of a house then you turning around telling me that is not house it is a bus.

Who determined thse books to be non-canonical?. Give me some specific reasons why?. Also that Catholic version was good enough for over 1000 years, were they right then?. Or was it that Martin Luther decided that they did not fit with his theology, and theefore left them out. If all protestants agree with Martin Luther how come they are not all Lutherans. Martin Luther and John Calvin are the earliest forms of protestantism, both there churches were practically identical to Catholic Church, except for somethings that did not fit with their own theology. So why is it all protestant s are not either Lutherans or Calvinists. Becuse some people decided these did not fit with their theology so they setup a new church, and this kept happening.

The Bible does seem to cloudy or foggy because protestants cannot agree on it's inerpretation.

There is no doubt the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church. Thee was no other Church then, there was no protestantism.

I am not dnying there has been wrongs commited in the name of the Catholic Church. However these wrongs go against the very teachng of the Church. There also has been bad popes no one is denying that. Popes are not infallable all the time they are only infallable when it comes to teaching dogma. They are ordinary people who make mistakes just like St. Peter did . There has been maybe 5 popes that have not done the Church no credited that does not mean the Church is wrong that means people within the Church have done wrong. The Church teaches with authority and certainty, that is how Jesus set it up. Popes have very rarely used infalliablity teaching dogma, pope John Paul II was one of the longest reigning popes he never used it, I think most popes have never used it.