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Ideas you've ditched due to arguments on DDO

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/4/2012 7:35:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

Various teleological arguments......

Paintings have painters therefore the universe has a designer.

A watch is complex and intelligently designed, a human is complex therefore intelligently designed.

If the low probably events of X, Y, Z had not happened humans would not exist, ergo humans are most probably the result of intent.

I am not too sure I ever thought they were "good" arguments, but I can say I was learning towards them (espically based on complexity) and thought they offered promise.

I use to think the Kalam overall was pretty good, I haven't totally ditched it, but I don't think its as strong as I use to think it was before. But that is what happens when you take time to learn opposing views to any argument isn't it.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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5/4/2012 9:18:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.


I think that your argument (who designed the designer) is bad, but your reason or ditching it doesn't make sense (perhaps if you hold to WLCs simultaneous causation). To say something caused time presupposes that time exists.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/4/2012 9:37:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 9:18:17 PM, Meatros wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.


I think that your argument (who designed the designer) is bad, but your reason or ditching it doesn't make sense (perhaps if you hold to WLCs simultaneous causation). To say something caused time presupposes that time exists.

"To say something caused time presupposes that time exists."

Clearly, and I'm with you on that.

The "who designed the designer" is an objection assuming the designer exists for the sake of argument, it's not and admission that the designer has been logically demonstrated.



Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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5/4/2012 9:42:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How is it that we still think time is a "thing"?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Meatros
Posts: 1,075
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5/4/2012 9:51:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 9:37:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/4/2012 9:18:17 PM, Meatros wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.


I think that your argument (who designed the designer) is bad, but your reason or ditching it doesn't make sense (perhaps if you hold to WLCs simultaneous causation). To say something caused time presupposes that time exists.

"To say something caused time presupposes that time exists."

Clearly, and I'm with you on that.

The "who designed the designer" is an objection assuming the designer exists for the sake of argument, it's not and admission that the designer has been logically demonstrated.


Ah, fair enough.



Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/5/2012 11:03:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This thread is about ideas that support your current position, that you have ditched. This isn't about arguments from a prior position that you ditched, which lead you to your current position.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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5/5/2012 11:41:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.

You should have been more clear then. Also take responsibility for your lack of clarity rather than vitriolic.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/5/2012 12:45:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 11:41:05 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.

You should have been more clear then. Also take responsibility for your lack of clarity rather than vitriolic.

I was perfectly clear:

"Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?"

"Your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate" obviously infers your current position. I didn't say "Your previous side of the Atheism vs Theism debate".

Maybe you need to take responsibility for misreading/ not comprehending my initial post.
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
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5/5/2012 1:05:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Used to be crazy ultra conservative fundamentaliset with no good ideas, finally understood logic, now a moderate.
Wall of LOL
"Infanticide is justified as long as the infants are below two" ~ RoyalPaladin
"Promoting female superiority is the only way to establish equality." ~ RoyalPaladin
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Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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5/5/2012 2:19:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 12:45:01 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 11:41:05 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.

You should have been more clear then. Also take responsibility for your lack of clarity rather than vitriolic.

I was perfectly clear:

"Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?"

"Your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate" obviously infers your current position. I didn't say "Your previous side of the Atheism vs Theism debate".

Maybe you need to take responsibility for misreading/ not comprehending my initial post.

Do not mistake your petulance for actual representation.
I was well within topic post and if you want 'only' you should have used just such a word.

Your character assaults show your immaturity.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/5/2012 2:34:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 2:19:39 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/5/2012 12:45:01 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 11:41:05 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.

You should have been more clear then. Also take responsibility for your lack of clarity rather than vitriolic.

I was perfectly clear:

"Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?"

"Your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate" obviously infers your current position. I didn't say "Your previous side of the Atheism vs Theism debate".

Maybe you need to take responsibility for misreading/ not comprehending my initial post.

Do not mistake your petulance for actual representation.
I was well within topic post and if you want 'only' you should have used just such a word.

Your character assaults show your immaturity.

'Your character assaults show your immaturity."

Oh the irony...
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
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5/5/2012 3:17:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 2:34:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 2:19:39 PM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/5/2012 12:45:01 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 11:41:05 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.

You should have been more clear then. Also take responsibility for your lack of clarity rather than vitriolic.

I was perfectly clear:

"Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?"

"Your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate" obviously infers your current position. I didn't say "Your previous side of the Atheism vs Theism debate".

Maybe you need to take responsibility for misreading/ not comprehending my initial post.

Do not mistake your petulance for actual representation.
I was well within topic post and if you want 'only' you should have used just such a word.

Your character assaults show your immaturity.

'Your character assaults show your immaturity."

Oh the irony...

Speaking of ignorance, immaturity and pretentious authoritarian control of psuedo intellectuals.....
I ironically though of this image.....

http://www.debate.org...
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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5/5/2012 3:22:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've probably lost confidence in the presumption of atheism argument. I used initially in my first few debates, and defended it without a problem, but I've since thought more about it, and it seems it is susceptible to a few refutations which definitely muddy the waters a bit for me, so I don't hold it as a reason to disbelieve any more.

Also, the New atheist types like Dawkins, Atkins and even people like Laurence Krauss have gone right down in my estimation. When I hear them dismiss philosophy as a non-subject, it makes me wonder if they are the philosophic equivalent to creationists, to the point where when I watched the Craig Atkins recent debate, I was rooting for Craig.

I've also been less confident of refutations of certain theistic arguments, like using the multiverse against fine-tuning. I came to the site pretty convinced that all theistic arguments were relatively defeatable, but arguments like the Pruss cosmological argument (as used by PCP), and a couple of cosmological arguments used by Contradiction have made me far more open to theistic arguments. There have been times reading the debates of these guys where I've actually been totally bewildered at how to respond, and I'm still not sure I could rebut some of these arguments on their own merit, so that's been a massive change.

Paradoxically, I've become much more confident in the power of the PoE as an argument, and was reminded how strong the argument is a few days ago when I picked up Sinnott-Armstrong's response to Bill Craig and read through it again. Also, despite PCP running a tank through my version of the problem of non-belief, I'm pretty sure this is another good argument.

So, I've generally been more open to arguments from both sides, and come to respect much more any thinker on any side of this issue who genuinely values truth above all else.
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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5/5/2012 3:31:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 3:22:33 PM, unitedandy wrote:
I've probably lost confidence in the presumption of atheism argument. I used initially in my first few debates, and defended it without a problem, but I've since thought more about it, and it seems it is susceptible to a few refutations which definitely muddy the waters a bit for me, so I don't hold it as a reason to disbelieve any more.

Also, the New atheist types like Dawkins, Atkins and even people like Laurence Krauss have gone right down in my estimation. When I hear them dismiss philosophy as a non-subject, it makes me wonder if they are the philosophic equivalent to creationists, to the point where when I watched the Craig Atkins recent debate, I was rooting for Craig.

I've also been less confident of refutations of certain theistic arguments, like using the multiverse against fine-tuning. I came to the site pretty convinced that all theistic arguments were relatively defeatable, but arguments like the Pruss cosmological argument (as used by PCP), and a couple of cosmological arguments used by Contradiction have made me far more open to theistic arguments. There have been times reading the debates of these guys where I've actually been totally bewildered at how to respond, and I'm still not sure I could rebut some of these arguments on their own merit, so that's been a massive change.

Paradoxically, I've become much more confident in the power of the PoE as an argument, and was reminded how strong the argument is a few days ago when I picked up Sinnott-Armstrong's response to Bill Craig and read through it again. Also, despite PCP running a tank through my version of the problem of non-belief, I'm pretty sure this is another good argument.

So, I've generally been more open to arguments from both sides, and come to respect much more any thinker on any side of this issue who genuinely values truth above all else.

I feel more like this. I've gone from a really strong atheist to a more pure agnostic. Specifically, I prescribe to Apatheistic Ignosticism as a result of watching all of us argue over cosmology and ontology and such. I think I've also abandoned absolute morals, and the Nihilists have really swayed me on this site. Ann was the biggest reason for this (back when she was here). I've also learned that many atheists can be just as stupid if not more stupid than stupid theists. Without a doubt, a lot of what PCP has shared has definitely changed many views I hold on the universe - but I would never call myself a "theist".
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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5/5/2012 7:55:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/5/2012 10:56:47 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/5/2012 10:18:12 AM, Gileandos wrote:
At 5/4/2012 5:58:10 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Just for fun, what ideas did you use to think were good for your side of the Atheism vs Theism debate, but ended up concluding weren't very good ideas?

For me, the "who designed the designer" is one I used to think was good. However, I ditched this because if there was a cause of time, it would have to be timeless, and couldn't have a beginning, and thus not be caused or designed.

Also, the "If God knows the future, we don't have free will" is one I used to think was very powerful. However, it makes sense that us freely doing an action in the future (assuming free will exists) is what causes God to know the action would be done, not the other way round.

So, what ideas did you used to think were good but ended up ditching due to reasoning heard on this site?

I ditched most of the atheistic arguments, which I have come to believe are no arguments at all, for the strength of the theistic ones.

One theistic argument I was going to toss to the side was the objective moral values argument. I began to concur with the atheists on the issue.

Then I met cliff stamp here on the website. He actually showed me that the atheistic view did not understand what philosophers like WLC were actually saying. Once I understood the argument, It is POWERFUL evidence for the existence of God.

I still have not found an atheist on this website that understands with the objective moral values argument is actually saying. Not condemning, until 2 years ago I did not either.

This obviously wasn't what I was asking (you are a Theist), and you are derailing the thread. I could name all the arguments for Theism (including the Moral Argument) which I deem to be invalid, but this would just turn into a common Atheist vs Theist thread. Unless you have Theistic arguments you would like present that you have ditched, then I would appreciate it if you kept this on topic, and not slide in reasons for your current position.

LOL
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL