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To those who say God does not exist

Oryus
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5/6/2012 3:18:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
headSPLOSION!
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
jat93
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5/6/2012 3:19:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

Actual lol.

The vast majority of people who think God does not exist are referring primarily to the theistic God. This is based on internal contradictions in holy books (the bible has thousands, both in the OT itself and OT vs NT), contradictions with science, history, and morality, archaeology, etc.

It's the theists who claim to know precisely where and how the universe comes from and under what kind of conditions.

To say God does not exist, or to be an atheist, involves no such claim.
tkubok
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5/6/2012 3:22:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

So sure... about what? Saying that God does not exist, doesnt mean you have to present another explanation for the origins of the universe.

"I do not believe in A" does not mean you have to say "Therefore, B" or "Therefore, C".

And by the way, the universe could have always existed, in which case it wouldnt have an origin.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:23:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:19:25 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

Actual lol.

The vast majority of people who think God does not exist are referring primarily to the theistic God. This is based on internal contradictions in holy books (the bible has thousands, both in the OT itself and OT vs NT), contradictions with science, history, and morality, archaeology, etc.

It's the theists who claim to know precisely where and how the universe comes from and under what kind of conditions.

To say God does not exist, or to be an atheist, involves no such claim.

I'm talking about God, not religion.

There's a big difference.

Religion is a set of rules that usually includes God or gods. I'm talking about God as in the creator of the Universe, not a set of rules or books that refer to him.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:24:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:22:56 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

So sure... about what? Saying that God does not exist, doesnt mean you have to present another explanation for the origins of the universe.

"I do not believe in A" does not mean you have to say "Therefore, B" or "Therefore, C".

And by the way, the universe could have always existed, in which case it wouldnt have an origin.

To come to the conclusion that God does not exist, you must have the answer. Otherwise, you would simply say "I don't know if God exists or not."
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
drafterman
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5/6/2012 3:26:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

I don't know where the universe came from.
I don't even know if it is appropriate to imply that the universe "came" from anything at all.

Ignorance is not an excuse to insert "God did it."

Sometimes "I don't know" is the best answer.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:27:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:26:08 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

I don't know where the universe came from.
I don't even know if it is appropriate to imply that the universe "came" from anything at all.

Ignorance is not an excuse to insert "God did it."

Sometimes "I don't know" is the best answer.

I'm referring to those people who are convinced that God does not exist. If you are an agnostic atheist, then that's fine in this context. Basically, my goal is to encounter people here who are sure hat God does not exist and see their logical viewpoints.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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5/6/2012 3:30:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In this five minute video NGD offers an abundance of proof that this universe and the human body were not created by a deity who is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/6/2012 3:35:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:27:25 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:26:08 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

I don't know where the universe came from.
I don't even know if it is appropriate to imply that the universe "came" from anything at all.

Ignorance is not an excuse to insert "God did it."

Sometimes "I don't know" is the best answer.

I'm referring to those people who are convinced that God does not exist.

I am convinced God does not exist.

If you are an agnostic atheist, then that's fine in this context. Basically, my goal is to encounter people here who are sure hat God does not exist and see their logical viewpoints.

Ok. Well, I am sure God does not exist. My answers remain the same.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:37:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:30:44 PM, jat93 wrote:


In this five minute video NGD offers an abundance of proof that this universe and the human body were not created by a deity who is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving.

(1). The fact that someone can name a few places where life cannot exist (he refers to ONE kind of life, by the way) doesn't take away from the fact that life does exist. So, this doesn't debunk a fine tuned universe where life can exit.

(2). This does not tell us where the Universe came from to justify the atheist view that God does not exist.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:40:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am convinced God does not exist.

I guess then, to you, "I don't know" isn't the best answer for ignorance.

If you are an agnostic atheist, then that's fine in this context. Basically, my goal is to encounter people here who are sure hat God does not exist and see their logical viewpoints.

Ok. Well, I am sure God does not exist. My answers remain the same.

Then, what created the Universe? If you claim to not know where the Universe came from, then you must be able to prove the absence of God to have such bold confidence.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/6/2012 3:40:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

"Where" is a spatio-temporal word to me (it presupposes a location in space). To ask "Where" "space" came from, may be a meaningless question.
drafterman
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5/6/2012 3:43:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:40:08 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I am convinced God does not exist.

I guess then, to you, "I don't know" isn't the best answer for ignorance.

It's the best answer for the question you asked.


If you are an agnostic atheist, then that's fine in this context. Basically, my goal is to encounter people here who are sure hat God does not exist and see their logical viewpoints.

Ok. Well, I am sure God does not exist. My answers remain the same.

Then, what created the Universe?

Deja vu. I already answered this question and I already explicitly stated that my answers are the same.

If you claim to not know where the Universe came from, then you must be able to prove the absence of God to have such bold confidence.

Not necessarily. One can be sure without proof. (After all, isn't that faith is all about?) Regardless, the Bible is sufficiently false and contrary to reality that I have no problems dismissing it as the mythology of neolithic goatherders.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:44:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:40:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

"Where" is a spatio-temporal word to me (it presupposes a location in space). To ask "Where" "space" came from, may be a meaningless question.

It's the same thing as asking where babies come from. I'd just like to know what caused the Universe.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:46:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:43:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:40:08 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I am convinced God does not exist.

I guess then, to you, "I don't know" isn't the best answer for ignorance.

It's the best answer for the question you asked.


If you are an agnostic atheist, then that's fine in this context. Basically, my goal is to encounter people here who are sure hat God does not exist and see their logical viewpoints.

Ok. Well, I am sure God does not exist. My answers remain the same.

Then, what created the Universe?

Deja vu. I already answered this question and I already explicitly stated that my answers are the same.

If you claim to not know where the Universe came from, then you must be able to prove the absence of God to have such bold confidence.

Not necessarily. One can be sure without proof. (After all, isn't that faith is all about?) Regardless, the Bible is sufficiently false and contrary to reality that I have no problems dismissing it as the mythology of neolithic goatherders.

I have no problem stating that the Bible is full of inaccuracies so much that it cannot be used as absolute law, especially the Old Testament.

But, disproving the Bible is not disproving God considering that most religions contain a primary creator of the Universe or the Earth.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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5/6/2012 3:48:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:37:12 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:30:44 PM, jat93 wrote:


In this five minute video NGD offers an abundance of proof that this universe and the human body were not created by a deity who is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving.

(1). The fact that someone can name a few places where life cannot exist (he refers to ONE kind of life, by the way) doesn't take away from the fact that life does exist. So, this doesn't debunk a fine tuned universe where life can exit.

(2). This does not tell us where the Universe came from to justify the atheist view that God does not exist.

1) A few places? Try the overwhelming majority of the world. Not the universe, the world, earth, that was supposedly created for us.

2) Why does an atheist need to know where the universe came from in order to know that it didn't come from a perfect deity with the three omnis? Remember, the word atheist by definition does not make any positive claims, only negative ones...
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:53:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1) A few places? Try the overwhelming majority of the world. Not the universe, the world, earth, that was supposedly created for us.

Actually, life is found in almost every corner of the world, even past the STP boiling point of water and in near pure acids, even jet fuel!

2) Why does an atheist need to know where the universe came from in order to know that it didn't come from a perfect deity with the three omnis? Remember, the word atheist by definition does not make any positive claims, only negative ones...

Saying "God dos not exist" is a positive claim since it states something as a fact Saying "God probably doesn't exist" or "I don't know if God exists" would be the proper statement to make without evidence of God not existing.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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5/6/2012 3:53:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This conversations actually happening, eh?

The Nanny Nanny Boo Boo post received honest replies? Alright then.
*pours another drink*
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:55:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In fact, organisms have even been brought back from the moon from our previous instruments sent there.

http://science.nasa.gov...
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
tkubok
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5/6/2012 3:55:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:24:59 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:22:56 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

So sure... about what? Saying that God does not exist, doesnt mean you have to present another explanation for the origins of the universe.

"I do not believe in A" does not mean you have to say "Therefore, B" or "Therefore, C".

And by the way, the universe could have always existed, in which case it wouldnt have an origin.

To come to the conclusion that God does not exist, you must have the answer. Otherwise, you would simply say "I don't know if God exists or not."

Okay, lets flip this around.

Do you believe that aliens exist and have come to planet earth?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/6/2012 3:56:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:44:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:40:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:15:57 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I'd like to know where the Universe came from if you're so sure.

"Where" is a spatio-temporal word to me (it presupposes a location in space). To ask "Where" "space" came from, may be a meaningless question.

It's the same thing as asking where babies come from. I'd just like to know what caused the Universe.

"It's the same thing as asking where babies come from."

I wouldn't say so, because babies come from a womb (a location in space). You are asking "where" "space" comes from essentially by asking where the universe came from. It's very plausible, that you may be asking a meaningless question.

"I'd just like to know what caused the Universe."

There is no reason to think causality is anything more than spatio-temporal. Even necessary causal conditions exist before in time to the effect in question. For example, the Earth's atmosphere and a pond existing are necessary conditions which needs to be in place for a ripple in the pond to occur, but it must exist temporally prior. If there is no before The Big bang though, then what makes a cause necessary? It's not that the universe came from "nothing" in my opinion, because there was never a time, when there was "nothing".

Now there are many hypothesis regarding cosmic origins (Not to be confused with The Big Bang, which only describes the early development of the universe). However, most of them assume some sort of space or time which just pushes the question back further (Alexander Vilenkin's Model of Cosmic Origins does not assume space or time in his model, so this could be promising).

Anyway, I believe there are still many things we can't explain and may never be able to explain. These potential gaps do not however, need to be filled with some divine creator our species made up thousands of years ago.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 3:57:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Do you believe that aliens exist and have come to planet earth?

It's a possibility I'm open to, but I don't know.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 4:08:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

"It's the same thing as asking where babies come from."

I wouldn't say so, because babies come from a womb (a location in space). You are asking "where" "space" comes from essentially by asking where the universe came from. It's very plausible, that you may be asking a meaningless question.

Specifically, you are correct if you pick pick apart the question itself and not what information I seek, which I believe was obvious enough when I put it in.

"I'd just like to know what caused the Universe."

There is no reason to think causality is anything more than spatio-temporal. Even necessary causal conditions exist before in time to the effect in question. For example, the Earth's atmosphere and a pond existing are necessary conditions which needs to be in place for a ripple in the pond to occur, but it must exist temporally prior. If there is no before The Big bang though, then what makes a cause necessary? It's not that the universe came from "nothing" in my opinion, because there was never a time, when there was "nothing".

I like your thinking, and I like the fact that I don't have to explain this to people. But, the reality of it is that, even though the timeline becomes vertical at the instant of universal creation, it doesn't take away from there being a beginning. It would still need a cause for its creation and expansion. It is illogical to just something just "is."

You can't take anything further than the planck time genesis or the planck scale length, so taking these things back to infinity would go against pretty strong theoretical constants.

Now there are many hypothesis regarding cosmic origins (Not to be confused with The Big Bang, which only describes the early development of the universe). However, most of them assume some sort of space or time which just pushes the question back further (Alexander Vilenkin's Model of Cosmic Origins does not assume space or time in his model, so this could be promising).

I don't think we can use hypotheses as a statement of knowledge about where the Universe came from enough to satisfy a rational argument where the Universe came from since non-agnostic atheists would have to state a godless universe origin with certainty.

Anyway, I believe there are still many things we can't explain and may never be able to explain. These potential gaps do not however, need to be filled with some divine creator our species made up thousands of years ago.

Well, for the purposes of what I am asking for, you're right, but I'm not stating God as a fact or not a fact, simply addressnig the atheists who are convinced that God does not exist, and see it as a fact.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
drafterman
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5/6/2012 4:28:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:46:58 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:43:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/6/2012 3:40:08 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I am convinced God does not exist.

I guess then, to you, "I don't know" isn't the best answer for ignorance.

It's the best answer for the question you asked.


If you are an agnostic atheist, then that's fine in this context. Basically, my goal is to encounter people here who are sure hat God does not exist and see their logical viewpoints.

Ok. Well, I am sure God does not exist. My answers remain the same.

Then, what created the Universe?

Deja vu. I already answered this question and I already explicitly stated that my answers are the same.

If you claim to not know where the Universe came from, then you must be able to prove the absence of God to have such bold confidence.

Not necessarily. One can be sure without proof. (After all, isn't that faith is all about?) Regardless, the Bible is sufficiently false and contrary to reality that I have no problems dismissing it as the mythology of neolithic goatherders.

I have no problem stating that the Bible is full of inaccuracies so much that it cannot be used as absolute law, especially the Old Testament.

But, disproving the Bible is not disproving God considering that most religions contain a primary creator of the Universe or the Earth.

Generally, when you capitalize a word, it makes it a poper noun that refers to a specific thing. A god vs. The God. No, i cannot disprove the vague, ambiguous, and general concept of a god.

I still say, certainty, that none exists.
cbrhawk1
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5/6/2012 4:32:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Generally, when you capitalize a word, it makes it a poper noun that refers to a specific thing. A god vs. The God. No, i cannot disprove the vague, ambiguous, and general concept of a god.

I still say, certainty, that none exists.

God is what I call the creator of the Universe. Some call him Allah, others call him Yehweh. Each religion that uses God as a central creator believes in the same thing. They all refer to the same thing in the sense that God started it all.

I think your conclusion is still in direct contradiction with your first statement of "I don't know." being the best answer for ignorance, but I guess you're free to think that.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/6/2012 4:35:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:08:33 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:

"It's the same thing as asking where babies come from."

I wouldn't say so, because babies come from a womb (a location in space). You are asking "where" "space" comes from essentially by asking where the universe came from. It's very plausible, that you may be asking a meaningless question.

Specifically, you are correct if you pick pick apart the question itself and not what information I seek, which I believe was obvious enough when I put it in.

"I'd just like to know what caused the Universe."

There is no reason to think causality is anything more than spatio-temporal. Even necessary causal conditions exist before in time to the effect in question. For example, the Earth's atmosphere and a pond existing are necessary conditions which needs to be in place for a ripple in the pond to occur, but it must exist temporally prior. If there is no before The Big bang though, then what makes a cause necessary? It's not that the universe came from "nothing" in my opinion, because there was never a time, when there was "nothing".

I like your thinking, and I like the fact that I don't have to explain this to people. But, the reality of it is that, even though the timeline becomes vertical at the instant of universal creation, it doesn't take away from there being a beginning. It would still need a cause for its creation and expansion. It is illogical to just something just "is."

"it doesn't take away from there being a beginning"

It makes more sense to assume that something begins to exist, if there was an earlier time, which it did not exist. This is not the case for the universe however, confusing a finite past with a beginning may be a mistake.

Steven Hawking's No Boundary Proposal Mathematically demonstrates that time could had no beginning, but is finite in the past (like how a sphere has no real start or end reference, but has a finite surface area). This is demonstrated mathematically by the fact that time can behave like another direction of space. Thus, it's possible that the universe (along with time), did not really "begin" to exist even though there is a finite amount of years in the past.

"It is illogical to just something just "is.""

Well, you believe God just "is", don't you? You basically just argued, that it's illogical to believe in God.


You can't take anything further than the planck time genesis or the planck scale length, so taking these things back to infinity would go against pretty strong theoretical constants.

There is no infinite past, it goes back 13.7 billion years. However, since there is no time when the universe did not exist, I see no reason why a timeless causal dependency is necessary (even even logical).

Now there are many hypothesis regarding cosmic origins (Not to be confused with The Big Bang, which only describes the early development of the universe). However, most of them assume some sort of space or time which just pushes the question back further (Alexander Vilenkin's Model of Cosmic Origins does not assume space or time in his model, so this could be promising).

I don't think we can use hypotheses as a statement of knowledge about where the Universe came from enough to satisfy a rational argument where the Universe came from since non-agnostic atheists would have to state a godless universe origin with certainty.

The point is, scientific hypotheses regarding origins of the universe have more intricate defenses for them. Once more though, we don't even know is the idea of an "origin" of the universe is even sensical


Anyway, I believe there are still many things we can't explain and may never be able to explain. These potential gaps do not however, need to be filled with some divine creator our species made up thousands of years ago.

Well, for the purposes of what I am asking for, you're right, but I'm not stating God as a fact or not a fact, simply addressing the atheists who are convinced that God does not exist, and see it as a fact.

Just because one cannot show that something is a fact, doesn't mean that one cannot not show that one worldview is more plausible than another based on all available evidence and knowledge.
drafterman
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5/6/2012 4:39:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 4:32:24 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Generally, when you capitalize a word, it makes it a poper noun that refers to a specific thing. A god vs. The God. No, i cannot disprove the vague, ambiguous, and general concept of a god.

I still say, certainty, that none exists.

God is what I call the creator of the Universe. Some call him Allah, others call him Yehweh. Each religion that uses God as a central creator believes in the same thing. They all refer to the same thing in the sense that God started it all.

I think your conclusion is still in direct contradiction with your first statement of "I don't know." being the best answer for ignorance, but I guess you're free to think that.

Contradictory in what way?
tkubok
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5/6/2012 4:40:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/6/2012 3:57:21 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Do you believe that aliens exist and have come to planet earth?

It's a possibility I'm open to, but I don't know.

Okay. Is there anything that you believe does not exist?