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Biblical Evidence that Abortion is Allowed

royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 9:36:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Kudos to Drafterman for finding this. It describes the Trial of Bitter Water.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

Numbers 5:19-22
cheesedingo1
Posts: 695
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5/7/2012 9:45:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 9:36:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Kudos to Drafterman for finding this. It describes the Trial of Bitter Water.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

Numbers 5:19-22


this isn't abortion. It's talking about miscarraiges.
My name is Cheesedingo1. I am a dingo. Made of cheese. My favorite number is one. BOOM.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/7/2012 9:49:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 9:45:44 AM, cheesedingo1 wrote:
At 5/7/2012 9:36:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Kudos to Drafterman for finding this. It describes the Trial of Bitter Water.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

Numbers 5:19-22


this isn't abortion. It's talking about miscarraiges.

Please read the whole passage and read about the trial. They give the woman a potion in order to induce a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage is called abortion.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/7/2012 9:55:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 9:45:44 AM, cheesedingo1 wrote:
At 5/7/2012 9:36:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Kudos to Drafterman for finding this. It describes the Trial of Bitter Water.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

Numbers 5:19-22


this isn't abortion. It's talking about miscarraiges.

Abortion and miscarriage are the same thing. A miscarriage is essentially a "spontaneous abortion" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...) and an abortion in the sense normally talked about is to basically induce a miscarriage, which is what is being talked about here.

And, in the full context of Numbers 5, this isn't merely saying abortion is allowed, but rather this process was commanded by God himelf.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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5/7/2012 10:01:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Very interesting... hadn't heard of this.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
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Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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5/7/2012 10:26:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Don't have time to argue this now, (I know if I post a responce someone will wanna say why I'm wrong.) But this is an old arguement. I had an APOL class and this was one of the subjects we covered.

But if you really are interested in learning just type the verse in on google with the word "abortion."
kfc
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/7/2012 10:50:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 10:26:18 AM, Koopin wrote:
Don't have time to argue this now, (I know if I post a responce someone will wanna say why I'm wrong.) But this is an old arguement. I had an APOL class and this was one of the subjects we covered.

But if you really are interested in learning just type the verse in on google with the word "abortion."

I did not find anything useful or interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Mirza
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5/7/2012 12:13:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You don't understand the passages at all. Pregnancy is not mentioned, and the whole process mentioned is about determining the loyalty of your wife.
royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 12:15:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:13:21 PM, Mirza wrote:
You don't understand the passages at all. Pregnancy is not mentioned, and the whole process mentioned is about determining the loyalty of your wife.

Apparently you were not taught how to read. The passage explicitly discuses causing a miscarriage. I linked to source that discusses the trial. It is only performed on pregnant women.
royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 12:16:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:15:35 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:13:21 PM, Mirza wrote:
You don't understand the passages at all. Pregnancy is not mentioned, and the whole process mentioned is about determining the loyalty of your wife.

Apparently you were not taught how to read. The passage explicitly discusses causing a miscarriage. I linked to source that discusses the trial. It is only performed on pregnant women.
Mirza
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5/7/2012 12:26:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For some reason I forgot that discussing with you means you receive nonsensical ad hominems. Nonetheless, I know very well how to read, AND interpret things. Perhaps you should read some commentaries on the verses. They have nothing (zero, null) to do with abortion, or the acceptance thereof. Nothing.
royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 12:29:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:26:10 PM, Mirza wrote:
For some reason I forgot that discussing with you means you receive nonsensical ad hominems. Nonetheless, I know very well how to read, AND interpret things. Perhaps you should read some commentaries on the verses. They have nothing (zero, null) to do with abortion, or the acceptance thereof. Nothing.

Please read about Sotah (the Ordeal of Bitter Water). The function of the Ordeal is to induce a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage is called abortion. I don't care about the excuses that some preacher said to twist the passage. I do care about what the passage actually says and how the passage was historically implemented.
Mirza
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5/7/2012 12:38:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:29:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please read about Sotah (the Ordeal of Bitter Water). The function of the Ordeal is to induce a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage is called abortion. I don't care about the excuses that some preacher said to twist the passage. I do care about what the passage actually says and how the passage was historically implemented.
It is about determining whether or not a wife was unfaithful. The passage probably indicates that a miscarriage could result from the cursed water, but that has nothing to do with the wife already being pregnant, or inducing a miscarriage in the first place. Get it Ma'am?
drafterman
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5/7/2012 12:41:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:38:04 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:29:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please read about Sotah (the Ordeal of Bitter Water). The function of the Ordeal is to induce a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage is called abortion. I don't care about the excuses that some preacher said to twist the passage. I do care about what the passage actually says and how the passage was historically implemented.
It is about determining whether or not a wife was unfaithful. The passage probably indicates that a miscarriage could result from the cursed water, but that has nothing to do with the wife already being pregnant, or inducing a miscarriage in the first place. Get it Ma'am?

Ok. So if you accept this, then what's the problem? Whether an abortion is the primary goal or a secondary consequence seems irrelevant regarding the issue of the fact that this ritual is not just condoned, but commanded.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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5/7/2012 12:44:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 9:36:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Kudos to Drafterman for finding this. It describes the Trial of Bitter Water.

Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband"— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —"may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

Numbers 5:19-22


I'm not familiar with this verse. But it seems as though the adultery part of the passage is a conditional- if she has committed adultery, then the "bitter water" will curse her by giving her a miscarriage (among other things?). It is odd that it doesn't outright treat the miscarriage as a negative in itself. But it doesn't really seem as if it is condoning abortion either. It seems even worse- they are using abortion as a punishment for sexual misdeeds. It reminds me of the monty python scene- well, we're going to put you in this bad situation and if you are affected negatively, we'll know that you're evil. The punishment assumes her guilt. This is my impression.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 12:45:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:38:04 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:29:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please read about Sotah (the Ordeal of Bitter Water). The function of the Ordeal is to induce a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage is called abortion. I don't care about the excuses that some preacher said to twist the passage. I do care about what the passage actually says and how the passage was historically implemented.
It is about determining whether or not a wife was unfaithful. The passage probably indicates that a miscarriage could result from the cursed water, but that has nothing to do with the wife already being pregnant, or inducing a miscarriage in the first place. Get it Ma'am?

I understand what the purpose of the trial was. That does not negate the fact that inducing the miscarriage was an important part of the trial and was considered not only permissible, but was also commanded by God. The fact of the matter is that God explicitly stated that it was permissible to use abortion against children who were created out of wedlock. In fact, whether or not the abortion occurred determined whether or not she was innocent or guilty.

Do you get it?
Mirza
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5/7/2012 12:46:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:41:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
Ok. So if you accept this, then what's the problem? Whether an abortion is the primary goal or a secondary consequence seems irrelevant regarding the issue of the fact that this ritual is not just condoned, but commanded.
That's fundamentally different from saying that the verses permit abortion per se. They don't, and the Biblical books never suggest anything similar. What these verses suggest is that a woman who makes her husband jealous and, thus appears unfaithful, should submit to a trial, which is to drink this contaminated water. This would reveal her loyalty. However, miscarriage might result due to poison, but again, this is a side-effect and in no way a command for direct abortion anytime.
Oryus
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5/7/2012 12:47:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:41:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:38:04 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:29:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please read about Sotah (the Ordeal of Bitter Water). The function of the Ordeal is to induce a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage is called abortion. I don't care about the excuses that some preacher said to twist the passage. I do care about what the passage actually says and how the passage was historically implemented.
It is about determining whether or not a wife was unfaithful. The passage probably indicates that a miscarriage could result from the cursed water, but that has nothing to do with the wife already being pregnant, or inducing a miscarriage in the first place. Get it Ma'am?

Ok. So if you accept this, then what's the problem? Whether an abortion is the primary goal or a secondary consequence seems irrelevant regarding the issue of the fact that this ritual is not just condoned, but commanded.

Well..... the Christian god seems to accept that one person can be punished on behalf of others..... So it doesn't seem so far fetched that god would punish a fetus for it's mothers sexual misdeeds.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/7/2012 12:47:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:46:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:41:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
Ok. So if you accept this, then what's the problem? Whether an abortion is the primary goal or a secondary consequence seems irrelevant regarding the issue of the fact that this ritual is not just condoned, but commanded.
That's fundamentally different from saying that the verses permit abortion per se. They don't, and the Biblical books never suggest anything similar. What these verses suggest is that a woman who makes her husband jealous and, thus appears unfaithful, should submit to a trial, which is to drink this contaminated water. This would reveal her loyalty. However, miscarriage might result due to poison, but again, this is a side-effect and in no way a command for direct abortion anytime.

It's not a side effect. The means through which her guilt is tested is through whether or not the abortion occurs.
Mirza
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5/7/2012 12:48:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:45:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I understand what the purpose of the trial was. That does not negate the fact that inducing the miscarriage was an important part of the trial
It wasn't, thank you very much.

and was considered not only permissible,
No.

but was also commanded by God.
Nope.

The fact of the matter is that God explicitly stated that it was permissible to use abortion against children who were created out of wedlock.
Doesn't say that. Give the specific quote.

In fact, whether or not the abortion occurred determined whether or not she was innocent or guilty.
Not true.

Do you get it?
Yep. Try again Ma'am.
Mirza
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5/7/2012 12:50:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:47:57 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:46:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:41:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
Ok. So if you accept this, then what's the problem? Whether an abortion is the primary goal or a secondary consequence seems irrelevant regarding the issue of the fact that this ritual is not just condoned, but commanded.
That's fundamentally different from saying that the verses permit abortion per se. They don't, and the Biblical books never suggest anything similar. What these verses suggest is that a woman who makes her husband jealous and, thus appears unfaithful, should submit to a trial, which is to drink this contaminated water. This would reveal her loyalty. However, miscarriage might result due to poison, but again, this is a side-effect and in no way a command for direct abortion anytime.

It's not a side effect.
That's the only thing the passages seem to suggest. Even if not, it would be a similar interpretation that would be the correct one.

The means through which her guilt is tested is through whether or not the abortion occurs.
Read the part where a woman says, "Amen!" You know what that indicates? I think not.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/7/2012 12:52:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:46:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:41:13 PM, drafterman wrote:
Ok. So if you accept this, then what's the problem? Whether an abortion is the primary goal or a secondary consequence seems irrelevant regarding the issue of the fact that this ritual is not just condoned, but commanded.
That's fundamentally different from saying that the verses permit abortion per se. They don't, and the Biblical books never suggest anything similar. What these verses suggest is that a woman who makes her husband jealous and, thus appears unfaithful, should submit to a trial, which is to drink this contaminated water. This would reveal her loyalty. However, miscarriage might result due to poison, but again, this is a side-effect and in no way a command for direct abortion anytime.

Exactly what do you think: "when [the Lord] makes your womb miscarry" means?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/7/2012 12:56:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:48:51 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:45:48 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
I understand what the purpose of the trial was. That does not negate the fact that inducing the miscarriage was an important part of the trial
It wasn't, thank you very much.

Learn to read.

"Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. "

This part says that the curse is not supposed to harm innocent women. If she has not had sexual relations outside of wedlock, the water does not harm her.

"But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

If she is guilty, the curse is to abort the infant.

Therefore, innocence and guilt was determined by whether or not the child was aborted.
and was considered not only permissible,
No.

Why would God command something if it was not considered permissible?
but was also commanded by God.
Nope.

Lies. The very beginning of the passage deals with the Lord telling Moses to lay down this law.
The fact of the matter is that God explicitly stated that it was permissible to use abortion against children who were created out of wedlock.
Doesn't say that. Give the specific quote.

Since he wanted children born out of wedlock to be aborted, the abortion was permissible.
In fact, whether or not the abortion occurred determined whether or not she was innocent or guilty.
Not true.

Read the quotes instead of sticking to your nonsense.
Do you get it?
Yep. Try again Ma'am.
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
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5/7/2012 1:00:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is actually in the Bible it's in the OT. However in the OT God, clearly sets out punishments for the wicked so they have a law which his people can abide by until the Mercy of Jesus enters the world. However in this text abortion is not stated, the priest says "If another man hath not slept with thee, and if thou be not defiled by forsaking thy husband's bed, these bitter water,s on which I have heaped cures, shall not hut thee". It is quite evident the adultry most have take place in order for the waters to harm.
royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 1:01:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 1:00:27 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
This is actually in the Bible it's in the OT. However in the OT God, clearly sets out punishments for the wicked so they have a law which his people can abide by until the Mercy of Jesus enters the world. However in this text abortion is not stated, the priest says "If another man hath not slept with thee, and if thou be not defiled by forsaking thy husband's bed, these bitter water,s on which I have heaped cures, shall not hut thee". It is quite evident the adultry most have take place in order for the waters to harm.

Please read the rest of the passage. It clearly states that the mechanism for determining her guilt is if the child is aborted.
Mirza
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5/7/2012 1:05:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 12:56:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
"But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

If she is guilty, the curse is to abort the infant.

Therefore, innocence and guilt was determined by whether or not the child was aborted.
The curse mentions both swelling, and a possible miscarriage. This, again, doesn't refer to abortion being permissible. Even if abortion were a necessary effect of this trial, then it is only in such a trial, which means that abortion per se is not allowed, and is only accepted as a lesser evil (or side-effect).

Lies. The very beginning of the passage deals with the Lord telling Moses to lay down this law.
That's not where we disagree. We disagree about what the law says in the first place. Understand?

Since he wanted children born out of wedlock to be aborted, the abortion was permissible.
Quote Ma'am. I said quote.

Read the quotes instead of sticking to your nonsense.
I did, nothing suggests abortion is permissible. It could be a side-effect of a necessary trial, but that's it.
Oryus
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5/7/2012 1:05:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 1:00:27 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
This is actually in the Bible it's in the OT. However in the OT God, clearly sets out punishments for the wicked so they have a law which his people can abide by until the Mercy of Jesus enters the world. However in this text abortion is not stated, the priest says "If another man hath not slept with thee, and if thou be not defiled by forsaking thy husband's bed, these bitter water,s on which I have heaped cures, shall not hut thee". It is quite evident the adultry most have take place in order for the waters to harm.

But in reality, where we all live, an abortifacient will give an abortion whether the fetus was conceived through adultery or not. The trial assumes the guilt of the woman. It is a witch trial. She cannot win.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Mirza
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5/7/2012 1:07:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 1:01:33 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please read the rest of the passage. It clearly states that the mechanism for determining her guilt is if the child is aborted.
The test can reveal her loyalty even if she is not pregnant, because her belly would swell (and likely other parts of the body, too). Even if a miscarriage was necessary to prove her guilt in the first place, then it's only in cases like this. In other words, abortion is not permissible as (a) a direct, intentional action, and (b) it is only acceptable as a lesser evil or side-effect.
royalpaladin
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5/7/2012 1:11:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/7/2012 1:05:29 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/7/2012 12:56:56 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
"But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries."

If she is guilty, the curse is to abort the infant.

Therefore, innocence and guilt was determined by whether or not the child was aborted.
The curse mentions both swelling, and a possible miscarriage. This, again, doesn't refer to abortion being permissible.
Read the passage.

If she is innocent, the curse is to do nothing to her.

If she guilty, the curse is to bloat her stomach and cause a miscarriage. Inducing a miscarriage=causing abortion.

Since this is a command from God, it is morally permissible.
Even if abortion were a necessary effect of this trial, then it is only in such a trial, which means that abortion per se is not allowed, and is only accepted as a lesser evil (or side-effect).

First, it still says that abortion is permissible in at least one context. It does not ban it it any other context and there is no evidence that it does. Given that there is evidence that it is fine in this context, you need to produce Biblical evidence noting that it is not permissible in other contexts.

Ok, so we can have all women test whether or not they were unfaithful by using abortion pills. They can undergo their own personal trials.

How is aborting an infant choosing a lesser evil? This is not choosing between two evils, lol. Is it a crime for those children to be born?
Lies. The very beginning of the passage deals with the Lord telling Moses to lay down this law.
That's not where we disagree. We disagree about what the law says in the first place. Understand?

I read the law and I read about Sotah. You have not done either.
Since he wanted children born out of wedlock to be aborted, the abortion was permissible.
Quote Ma'am. I said quote.

Read the passage, please.
Read the quotes instead of sticking to your nonsense.
I did, nothing suggests abortion is permissible. It could be a side-effect of a necessary trial, but that's it.

It's not a side-effect. It's the mechanism for determining guilt.