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Arguments that killed God for you?

Xer
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8/2/2009 4:00:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This thread was originally made by Kleptin. He started it 4 months ago and the last post was 3 months ago. Unfortunately, after the 2nd page of the thread, the thread was hijacked by a notorious user. So, I would like to start it up again.

The original thread by Kleptin:
http://www.debate.org...

==========

I'd like to start off and say I'm agnostic. I was raised Catholic and go to a Catholic school. I haven't told my parents that I am agnostic yet. I think I'll wait until I graduate.

Anyway, I defintely do not believe in religion. But, I admit that I have no clue how the universe was made. A God seems the most logical answer. Spontaneous generation doesn't make much sense.

Reasons why I don't believe in any of the Religion Gods:
-Contradictions in scripture.
-Problem of evil.
-Omnipotence paradox.
-Problem of Hell/Satan.
-Problem of free will.
-Historical induction.

And my main reason for not believing:
-There are thousands and thousands of Gods. The only reason I initially believed in the Judeo-Christian God is because I was born into a Catholic family. If I was born to a family in Iran, I'd most likely be Muslim. If I was born to a family in Israel, I'd most likely be Jewish. If I was born in 12th century Scandinavia, I'd most likely believe in Thor. If I was born in Classical Greece, I'd most likely believe in Zeus. And so on and so on. In conclusion, the idea that any God or Religion is the right God, simply goes against probabilty. The odds that one specific God or Religion is the true God Religion is just astronomical.

==========

So, what killed God for you?

***If you are religious please do not hijack this thread and attack our reasons. You can start another thread for that. I am truly curious as to other Agnostics/Atheists beliefs on the question I posed. Thank you.***
I-am-a-panda
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8/2/2009 4:06:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I was brought up as a Catholic. I went to mass weekly up until I was about 6, when we just stopped. I was just preached scripture and told the bible must be real. It was just another story to me, as must as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Anyway, when I discovered Santa Claus wasn't real (On my own accord, I found a Gamestop sticker on a game) I realised that not everything I was told was necessarily true. Soon, I started watching a good amount of Discovery chanell and figured the Earth wasn't 6000 years old and we evolved, and weren't made by a god.

I never really was religious. Anyway, this website opened my eyes to the evidence of it all. I am now one of the few Atheists, most people are like "So you don't believe in heaven" and then I shock them with some of my logical response. Anyway, I can't wait for an argument with my religious teacher next year. She hates Dawkins.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
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8/2/2009 4:07:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Oh and I go to a Catholic school but as long as you don't go around shouting " Gods not real", they don't mind.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Xer
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8/2/2009 4:16:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/2/2009 4:06:16 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Anyway, I can't wait for an argument with my religious teacher next year. She hates Dawkins.

I argued with my religion teacher a few times this year, but for the most part, his responses were too long, though out, and educated. So I never really convinced my classmates. He has two Masters Degrees and a Ph.D. I never argued with him against the existence of God, which would have been a lot better of a debate. I usually just argued about contradictions in the Bible, since we were pretty much studying the Old Testament and New Testament history this past year. I think I'll actually argue that God doesn't exist this coming year. I think my religion teacher this coming year will be an easier opponent haha.
Rezzealaux
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8/2/2009 4:18:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
See my sig.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
I-am-a-panda
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8/2/2009 4:22:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/2/2009 4:16:19 PM, Nags wrote:
At 8/2/2009 4:06:16 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Anyway, I can't wait for an argument with my religious teacher next year. She hates Dawkins.

I argued with my religion teacher a few times this year, but for the most part, his responses were too long, though out, and educated. So I never really convinced my classmates. He has two Masters Degrees and a Ph.D. I never argued with him against the existence of God, which would have been a lot better of a debate. I usually just argued about contradictions in the Bible, since we were pretty much studying the Old Testament and New Testament history this past year. I think I'll actually argue that God doesn't exist this coming year. I think my religion teacher this coming year will be an easier opponent haha.

Yeah, but this is a woman with a college degree. I can pwn her on most of her ideas, then tell her her beliefs contradict the bible, then make her atheist.

My three point plans never fail.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
regebro
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8/3/2009 2:22:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The world simply looks and works nothing like religion says that it works. That's the killer. You can make a religion that describes the world as it is, but then adds unmeasurable parts like afterlife and/or a creator god that doesn't involve itself with the world, but then religious becomes pointless to me. It becomes a security blanket for those who can not deal with reality as it is.

And I don't have any use for that.
So prove me wrong, then.
I-am-a-panda
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8/3/2009 3:41:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/3/2009 2:22:29 AM, regebro wrote:
The world simply looks and works nothing like religion says that it works. That's the killer. You can make a religion that describes the world as it is, but then adds unmeasurable parts like afterlife and/or a creator god that doesn't involve itself with the world, but then religious becomes pointless to me. It becomes a security blanket for those who can not deal with reality as it is.

And I don't have any use for that.

Lol, the bible states the world is flat and that God is in the clouds.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Kleptin
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8/3/2009 4:39:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I learned that the more advanced a theist, the more easily he can use elements of faith and biblical reinterpretation to undermine logic and reasoning. Which is as it should be. The battle is not meant to be easily won by either side, because it is a battle not meant to be won.

I for one, see no purpose in striking up an argument with a theist if you are an atheist, with the sole exception of wanting to learn more. Neither person is truly in the right, because the standards of proof are inherently different for both.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
regebro
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8/3/2009 5:11:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/3/2009 4:39:21 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I learned that the more advanced a theist, the more easily he can use elements of faith and biblical reinterpretation to undermine logic and reasoning. Which is as it should be. The battle is not meant to be easily won by either side, because it is a battle not meant to be won.

I for one, see no purpose in striking up an argument with a theist if you are an atheist, with the sole exception of wanting to learn more. Neither person is truly in the right, because the standards of proof are inherently different for both.

But that assumes that standards of proof is simply a matter of taste. That seems highly doubtful. After all what we are discussing here is matters of the universe and existence is constituted. The process of examining and gathering knowledge about existence is called science. Why would standards of proof be different just because you have different opinions on the make up of reality?
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
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8/4/2009 12:36:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
For me it was a combination of the Pharisees and Pontius Pilate that killed God.. Then on the 3rd day HE ROSE TO LIFE AGAIN!!!
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
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8/4/2009 2:39:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/3/2009 4:39:21 AM, Kleptin wrote:

Neither person is truly in the right, because the standards of proof are inherently different for both.

Mmm... One side of the argument uses the standard of proof that EVERYONE uses for EVERYTHING else except religion. The other side uses a special standard of proof given to them by the very thing in question.

Now... which standard is correct?
InquireTruth
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8/4/2009 2:43:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
One side of the argument uses the standard of proof that EVERYONE uses for EVERYTHING else except religion.

Yet at the foundation of both practices is fundamentally the same - experience.
TheSkeptic
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8/4/2009 2:47:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Yet at the foundation of both practices is fundamentally the same - experience.

Huh?

For me, the argument that started the snowball to atheism was actually just the evidence for evolution. Back then I was a somewhat clueless Young Earth creationist/Protestant - I didn't have good reasons for my religion but I had faith. so really, when I realized the world is NOT 6,000 years old, it made me start to doubt my religion.

Then from there on you get all your classical argument - problem of evil, paradox between "omni-attributes", etc. The one that really hit the nail on the coffin was the argument from nonbelief.
InquireTruth
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8/4/2009 3:01:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Huh?

We accept physical reality based on experience alone – insofar as we cannot prove physical reality without begging the question. It is, for all intents and purposes, properly circular. Theistic reality is known through experience. The justificatory power for physical reality is exactly the same as theistic reality. There has to be some relevant difference that allows us to accept physical reality on the sole basis of experience but not theistic reality. Since it is possible that we are merely disillusioned vegetables floating in a sterilized tank of salt water, or to use Plato's analogy, figures staring at the shadows of a greater reality, then it is possible that our experiences of reality are false. So long as you accept the verity of physical reality, then you are knowingly affirming belief based on experience alone.
GodSands
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8/4/2009 3:19:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
-Contradictions in scripture.
-Problem of evil.
-Omnipotence paradox.
-Problem of Hell/Satan.
-Problem of free will.
-Historical induction.


I see that you are either arrogant or lying. I have found no contradiction in the Bible at all. Have you read the Bible, or do you believe anything what anyone says? The Bible is clearly a book which is written by by men who were inspiried by God. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, Timothy, Peter and James all have a unique vocabulary. One was written last, and one was written first, but no book matches one another in vocabulary, the Holy Spirit was guilding the authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc.

What problems with evil? God is all powerful, do you expect to know God's power, even if God shared it with you? What problem will hell and Satan? We have free will based on the love from God, God does not want robots, or zombies. And the 66 books were written by 30 odd authors, all consistent with each other, linking together.
GeoLaureate8
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8/4/2009 3:22:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 3:01:04 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
Huh?

We accept physical reality based on experience alone – insofar as we cannot prove physical reality without begging the question. It is, for all intents and purposes, properly circular. Theistic reality is known through experience. The justificatory power for physical reality is exactly the same as theistic reality. There has to be some relevant difference that allows us to accept physical reality on the sole basis of experience but not theistic reality. Since it is possible that we are merely disillusioned vegetables floating in a sterilized tank of salt water, or to use Plato's analogy, figures staring at the shadows of a greater reality, then it is possible that our experiences of reality are false. So long as you accept the verity of physical reality, then you are knowingly affirming belief based on experience alone.

I agree entirely, though I wouldn't say that a theists reality is from experience, the theist reality comes from indoctrination. They then edit reality and experiences to fit their belief system.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
regebro
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8/4/2009 3:25:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 3:19:01 PM, GodSands wrote:
-Contradictions in scripture.
-Problem of evil.
-Omnipotence paradox.
-Problem of Hell/Satan.
-Problem of free will.
-Historical induction.


I see that you are either arrogant or lying. I have found no contradiction in the Bible at all. Have you read the Bible

I have. It's extremely contradictory. Even most Christians admit this.

What problems with evil?

The fact that God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing means that evil is impossible. Yet it exists. Hence, God is not all powerful AND all loveing AND all knowing.

God is all powerful, do you expect to know God's power, even if God shared it with you? What problem will hell and Satan? We have free will based on the love from God, God does not want robots, or zombies.

But apparently he wants evil. Because it exists. God is all powerful, so hence he can give us free will without also creating evil.

And the 66 books were written by 30 odd authors, all consistent with each other, linking together.

Harry Potter is consistent and linking together. That doesn't mean it's true.

And, btw, the Bibles book aren't consistent and linked together. That statement is simply false.
So prove me wrong, then.
Xer
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8/4/2009 3:26:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 3:19:01 PM, GodSands wrote:
-Contradictions in scripture.
-Problem of evil.
-Omnipotence paradox.
-Problem of Hell/Satan.
-Problem of free will.
-Historical induction.


I see that you are either arrogant or lying. I have found no contradiction in the Bible at all. Have you read the Bible, or do you believe anything what anyone says? The Bible is clearly a book which is written by by men who were inspiried by God. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jude, Timothy, Peter and James all have a unique vocabulary. One was written last, and one was written first, but no book matches one another in vocabulary, the Holy Spirit was guilding the authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc.

Exactly. Why aren't they all the same?

What problems with evil? God is all powerful, do you expect to know God's power, even if God shared it with you?

Why is there evil in the world, if God can only create good. Cancer and Natural Disasters are things that mankind has no control over, and are clearly evil, why do they exist?

What problem will hell and Satan? We have free will based on the love from God, God does not want robots, or zombies. And the 66 books were written by 30 odd authors, all consistent with each other, linking together.

If God created everything. Then, that means God created hell and Satan. Thus, God created evil.
KeithKroeger91
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8/4/2009 3:39:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 3:25:50 PM, regebro wrote:
At 8/4/2009 3:19:01 PM, GodSands wrote:
-Contradictions in scripture.
-Problem of evil.
-Omnipotence paradox.
-Problem of Hell/Satan.
-Problem of free will.
-Historical induction.


I see that you are either arrogant or lying. I have found no contradiction in the Bible at all. Have you read the Bible

I have. It's extremely contradictory. Even most Christians admit this.

Proof? please?

What problems with evil?

The fact that God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing means that evil is impossible. Yet it exists. Hence, God is not all powerful AND all loveing AND all knowing.

Evil has always existed, God is the absence of evil.

God is all powerful, do you expect to know God's power, even if God shared it with you? What problem will hell and Satan? We have free will based on the love from God, God does not want robots, or zombies.

But apparently he wants evil. Because it exists. God is all powerful, so hence he can give us free will without also creating evil.

And the 66 books were written by 30 odd authors, all consistent with each other, linking together.

Harry Potter is consistent and linking together. That doesn't mean it's true.

That's not the point.

And, btw, the Bibles book aren't consistent and linked together. That statement is simply false.

Please show the contradictions.
I win ;D
TheSkeptic
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8/4/2009 3:40:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
We accept physical reality based on experience alone – insofar as we cannot prove physical reality without begging the question. It is, for all intents and purposes, properly circular.

I wouldn't say that too fast - if you believe in the existence of physical reality via empirical means alone, you fall prey to idealism. There are rational means of deducing that physical reality exists.

Theistic reality is known through experience. The justificatory power for physical reality is exactly the same as theistic reality. There has to be some relevant difference that allows us to accept physical reality on the sole basis of experience but not theistic reality. Since it is possible that we are merely disillusioned vegetables floating in a sterilized tank of salt water, or to use Plato's analogy, figures staring at the shadows of a greater reality, then it is possible that our experiences of reality are false.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I presume what JCMT's statement was referring to was faith - though I can't tell since I'm not him.

So long as you accept the verity of physical reality, then you are knowingly affirming belief based on experience alone.

As I've said before, my reasons for believing in a physical/external reality consists more of just experience.
regebro
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8/4/2009 3:50:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 3:39:08 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
At 8/4/2009 3:25:50 PM, regebro wrote:
I have. It's extremely contradictory. Even most Christians admit this.

Proof? please?

Tomorrow, maybe.

What problems with evil?

The fact that God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing means that evil is impossible. Yet it exists. Hence, God is not all powerful AND all loveing AND all knowing.

Evil has always existed, God is the absence of evil.

And since Evil is not absent, God is. QED.

Harry Potter is consistent and linking together. That doesn't mean it's true.

That's not the point.

Yes, that's exactly the point.

And, btw, the Bibles book aren't consistent and linked together. That statement is simply false.

Please show the contradictions.

Just the simple fact that in the old testament God is vengeful and hating and murdering, while in the New Testament he is loving and forgiving.

That's one whopper of a contradiction.
So prove me wrong, then.
KeithKroeger91
Posts: 178
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8/4/2009 4:06:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 3:50:54 PM, regebro wrote:
At 8/4/2009 3:39:08 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
At 8/4/2009 3:25:50 PM, regebro wrote:
I have. It's extremely contradictory. Even most Christians admit this.

Proof? please?

Tomorrow, maybe.

Look forward to it.


What problems with evil?

The fact that God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing means that evil is impossible. Yet it exists. Hence, God is not all powerful AND all loveing AND all knowing.

Evil has always existed, God is the absence of evil.

And since Evil is not absent, God is. QED.

But God is not absent.
We can keep going back and forth but no matter how hard you try you cannot prove that God does not exist.
After the fall of man everyone was born of a evil nature. God is the absence of evil meaning there is no evil in him.


Harry Potter is consistent and linking together. That doesn't mean it's true.

That's not the point.

Yes, that's exactly the point.

The point was not that because the Bible is consistent that must make it true. The point was merely telling that the Bible was not inconsistent.


And, btw, the Bibles book aren't consistent and linked together. That statement is simply false.

Please show the contradictions.

Just the simple fact that in the old testament God is vengeful and hating and murdering, while in the New Testament he is loving and forgiving.

That's one whopper of a contradiction.

God made a new covenant with the death of jesus Christ. Jesus's death signified God eternally forgiving us of our sins if you repent.
No contradiction.
I win ;D
InquireTruth
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8/4/2009 4:57:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
There are rational means of deducing that physical reality exists.

Not without begging the question. The method by which we may test physical reality is itself a property of the very thing in question.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

That physical and theistic reality stand or fall by the same justificatory power.

As I've said before, my reasons for believing in a physical/external reality consists more of just experience.

So you can prove the verity of physical reality without begging the question? The floor is yours.
GodSands
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8/4/2009 5:21:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 8/4/2009 3:25:50 PM, regebro wrote:
At 8/4/2009 3:19:01 PM, GodSands wrote:
-Contradictions in scripture.
-Problem of evil.
-Omnipotence paradox.
-Problem of Hell/Satan.
-Problem of free will.
-Historical induction.


I see that you are either arrogant or lying. I have found no contradiction in the Bible at all. Have you read the Bible

I have. It's extremely contradictory. Even most Christians admit this.

What problems with evil?

The fact that God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing means that evil is impossible. Yet it exists. Hence, God is not all powerful AND all loveing AND all knowing.

God is all powerful, do you expect to know God's power, even if God shared it with you? What problem will hell and Satan? We have free will based on the love from God, God does not want robots, or zombies.

But apparently he wants evil. Because it exists. God is all powerful, so hence he can give us free will without also creating evil.

And the 66 books were written by 30 odd authors, all consistent with each other, linking together.

Harry Potter is consistent and linking together. That doesn't mean it's true.

And, btw, the Bibles book aren't consistent and linked together. That statement is simply false.


"I have. It's extremely contradictory. Even most Christians admit this." Point it out, where are these contradictions?

The fact that God is all powerful, all loving and all knowing means that evil is impossible. Yet it exists. Hence, God is not all powerful AND all loveing AND all knowing.

God is all powerful, do you expect to know God's power, even if God shared it with you? What problem will hell and Satan? We have free will based on the love from God, God does not want robots, or zombies.

But apparently he wants evil. Because it exists. God is all powerful, so hence he can give us free will without also creating evil.

And the 66 books were written by 30 odd authors, all consistent with each other, linking together.

Seems like you have a problem understanding the term free will, and yes you do have it. God does not do any evil we humans are the ones who do evil. We start by disobeying the 1st commandment. Love your God with all your heart, might,sould and strength.

"Harry Potter is consistent and linking together. That doesn't mean it's true." -- Harry Potter is known as a farily tales, it was thought up on a train by the author. The Bible is known to be the word of God, the truth.
Danielle
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8/4/2009 5:33:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
History class killed God for me.

Logic lessons re-affirmed it.

Talking to theists on DDO really affirmed it.
President of DDO
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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8/4/2009 5:56:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 8/4/2009 5:33:00 PM, theLwerd wrote:
History class killed God for me.

Logic lessons re-affirmed it.

Talking to theists on DDO really affirmed it.


Haha nice, like the sarcism. If God is dead for you, you are dead to your self, God needs no one. God has only sent His son, so that we can have life. "I bring you life, life in all its fullness." John 10:10.
crayon
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8/4/2009 6:25:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 5:56:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 8/4/2009 5:33:00 PM, theLwerd wrote:
History class killed God for me.

Logic lessons re-affirmed it.

Talking to theists on DDO really affirmed it.


Haha nice, like the sarcism. If God is dead for you, you are dead to your self, God needs no one. God has only sent His son, so that we can have life. "I bring you life, life in all its fullness." John 10:10.

uh, no?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16"
GodSands
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8/4/2009 6:34:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/4/2009 6:25:18 PM, crayon wrote:
At 8/4/2009 5:56:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 8/4/2009 5:33:00 PM, theLwerd wrote:
History class killed God for me.

Logic lessons re-affirmed it.

Talking to theists on DDO really affirmed it.


Haha nice, like the sarcism. If God is dead for you, you are dead to your self, God needs no one. God has only sent His son, so that we can have life. "I bring you life, life in all its fullness." John 10:10.

uh, no?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16"


I am concerned, whose point were you repling the verse John 3:16 at? Because God does not need us, we need God, love is not needed, it is wanted. I do not love God because I need to, I love God because I choose to.