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Would you consider this as Just?

tkubok
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5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.
cbrhawk1
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5/10/2012 3:49:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Please explain how this is just.

To explain why that is just would be to say we at least know the will of God as much as God himself. Because we already need God in the first place to purge us of our sins, it's safe to say we're not very good judges of just vs unjust, sinful vs not sinful, and right vs wrong.

Human thoughts, feelings, and emotions do not make something just or not just. What pertains to the Earth is just on Earth. Circumstances on Earth are there to give us knowledge and grow in knowing God's message. By going away from God and relying on our feelings to determine what is right is reverting back to the animals we were before God showed himself to us.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
tkubok
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5/10/2012 4:00:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 3:49:59 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Please explain how this is just.

To explain why that is just would be to say we at least know the will of God as much as God himself. Because we already need God in the first place to purge us of our sins, it's safe to say we're not very good judges of just vs unjust, sinful vs not sinful, and right vs wrong.

Human thoughts, feelings, and emotions do not make something just or not just. What pertains to the Earth is just on Earth. Circumstances on Earth are there to give us knowledge and grow in knowing God's message. By going away from God and relying on our feelings to determine what is right is reverting back to the animals we were before God showed himself to us.

So in other words, you dont think its just, but you have no choice because God has all the power.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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5/10/2012 4:08:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.

Excuse me for that last sentence: correct it to: It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist that the theology of the Bible, or, some semi-literate atheist who simply misrepresents conversion due to intentional ignorance.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
tkubok
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5/10/2012 4:09:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.

Then how does one get into heaven in the christian theology. How are people saved.
cbrhawk1
Posts: 588
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5/10/2012 4:12:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So in other words, you dont think its just, but you have no choice because God has all the power.

The short answer: God is just in all things, even though our fragile emotions sometimes make us think differently for a brief time every now and then.

my long answer is that it's not my place to determine what is and is not just. It's also impossible for me to tell how I would feel when I am in heaven d my daughter is burning in hell compared to the heavenly rapist.

If such a thing happened as a rapist doing that to a kid of mine? Of course I'll be mad. I might even curse God in anger. It's a part of being human to be angry and to lash out. Whether or not those who love God admit it, we lash out at God in anger at least once in our lives. But, does that mean our anger is justified? Of course not.

Each person is put into a specific set of circumstances to learn about God, the Earth, and how to tell the difference. A rape or rapist, for all different people affected, is just one of those circumstances.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
tkubok
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5/10/2012 4:21:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:12:39 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
So in other words, you dont think its just, but you have no choice because God has all the power.

The short answer: God is just in all things, even though our fragile emotions sometimes make us think differently for a brief time every now and then.

my long answer is that it's not my place to determine what is and is not just. It's also impossible for me to tell how I would feel when I am in heaven d my daughter is burning in hell compared to the heavenly rapist.

If such a thing happened as a rapist doing that to a kid of mine? Of course I'll be mad. I might even curse God in anger. It's a part of being human to be angry and to lash out. Whether or not those who love God admit it, we lash out at God in anger at least once in our lives. But, does that mean our anger is justified? Of course not.

Each person is put into a specific set of circumstances to learn about God, the Earth, and how to tell the difference. A rape or rapist, for all different people affected, is just one of those circumstances.

So if God ordered you to rape a 13 year old child, you would have to do it and think it was just and morally Good?
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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5/10/2012 4:26:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:09:27 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.

Then how does one get into heaven in the christian theology. How are people saved.

Well, it aint by sittin on a stump in the middle of a soybean field or waitin' around til one is moribund on a deathbed and saying, "Jesus, Lord Jesus, come into my heart and life. Thank you for saving me." That's ridiculous on the surface - and more ridiculous underneath. Sounds more like Billy Graham than the apostle Peter.

Also, "just" and "justice" are relative concepts with wide variation even among humans. I suppose even the Islamic nutcases who whack off captives' heads think, "That's justice." You don't have to look outside of the Bible for such examples: the Bible admits of it. The apostle Paul was consenting to the death of Stephen, yet Paul was ultimately saved, yet God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for lying. Apparently God's concepts of justice are different from ours, so when you ask, "Is this just?", you are having to assume that man's ideas of justice are the same as God's: they aren't.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
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5/10/2012 4:29:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

No one gets what they deserve or what is fair, otherwise none of us would make it inot heaven. If a man is truly repentant, we must try and forgive if Jesus who is perfect in every way can forgive any act then we must try to emulate him. We don't know who is in heaven or hell, the Church teaches we cannot judge where people go after their life on earth. However if the atheist daughter lived a good life and followed Jesus. I don't mean in any faith sense but emulated the behaviour of Jesus maybe she is more pleasing to God than some so called Christians. I do not believe you get intoheaven on faith alone, but also through your words, actions, and works. I do believe that believing is a massive foot in the door. I mean I would not like to think Ghandi or other good people of faith and none do not get in. However being an atheist I think can distort the thinking of people and can actually they cann acually go against God with misplaced compassion because there is no foundation for their moraltiy. Like abortion a lot of those who support abortion are atheist, they think this is a right. Were as most Christians see this as wrong.
cbrhawk1
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5/10/2012 4:32:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So if God ordered you to rape a 13 year old child, you would have to do it and think it was just and morally Good?

If you wanted to suppose that was possible, then yes. Unfortunately for atheists, that's not how God operates though.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
SeanMichael
Posts: 355
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5/10/2012 4:34:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
That should be Catholic Church.

This my own opinion, just because I think some good atheists or people of another faith are probably in heaven does not mean I am right. Nobody knows is what I am saying.
tkubok
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5/10/2012 4:57:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:26:26 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:09:27 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.

Then how does one get into heaven in the christian theology. How are people saved.

Well, it aint by sittin on a stump in the middle of a soybean field or waitin' around til one is moribund on a deathbed and saying, "Jesus, Lord Jesus, come into my heart and life. Thank you for saving me." That's ridiculous on the surface - and more ridiculous underneath. Sounds more like Billy Graham than the apostle Peter.
Youve told me what it aint. But you havent told me what it is.
Also, "just" and "justice" are relative concepts with wide variation even among humans. I suppose even the Islamic nutcases who whack off captives' heads think, "That's justice." You don't have to look outside of the Bible for such examples: the Bible admits of it. The apostle Paul was consenting to the death of Stephen, yet Paul was ultimately saved, yet God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for lying. Apparently God's concepts of justice are different from ours, so when you ask, "Is this just?", you are having to assume that man's ideas of justice are the same as God's: they aren't.

Im not asking how this is just from Gods eyes, im asking how this is just in YOUR eyes.

Saying that it is just simply because God says so, is only an argument from authority. The problem here is how you can justify this as just, and if it isnt, why would you consider that God is just. Sure, Gods sense of justice may be different than ours, but the only way we are going to determine if this God is evil or Good, is if we use our own moral compass. Otherwise, how else could we ever make a determination as to whether this God is actually good or if hes just a evil liar?
tkubok
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5/10/2012 5:06:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:29:03 PM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

No one gets what they deserve or what is fair, otherwise none of us would make it inot heaven.

Well, the problem here, is that most of us dont deserve Hell, eternal punishment, either.

We may not deserve to go into heaven, but we also dont deserve the punishment of hell either.

If a man is truly repentant, we must try and forgive if Jesus who is perfect in every way can forgive any act then we must try to emulate him. We don't know who is in heaven or hell, the Church teaches we cannot judge where people go after their life on earth. However if the atheist daughter lived a good life and followed Jesus. I don't mean in any faith sense but emulated the behaviour of Jesus maybe she is more pleasing to God than some so called Christians. I do not believe you get intoheaven on faith alone, but also through your words, actions, and works. I do believe that believing is a massive foot in the door.

But many christians, including Paul, disagree with you.
I mean I would not like to think Ghandi or other good people of faith and none do not get in.

Thats the point of this question, or problem. If this were the case, as many christians believe, you would have to agree with it and say it is just.

Furthermore, as most christians would tell you, if people who live a good life and dont accept jesus christ, can get into heaven, then why bother believing in the bible or God at all.

However being an atheist I think can distort the thinking of people and can actually they cann acually go against God with misplaced compassion because there is no foundation for their moraltiy. Like abortion a lot of those who support abortion are atheist, they think this is a right. Were as most Christians see this as wrong.

They arent for abortion, they are for the freedom of choice. Its like freedom of speech. The KKK, racism, bigotry, these are protected rights under the freedom of speech. But being an advocate of freedom of speech doesnt mean you support what the KKK say, only their right to say it. Most athiests would see racism as wrong too, but they would agree that the right should not be denied simply because they believe the message is wrong. Thats what freedom is about, and thats what anti-choice pro-life people dont understand.

In other words, we have a good foundation for morality, its called Society. Its not an absolute authority, and thats what makes it superior to an absolute moral authority. If God said that Slavery was okay, which he has in the bible, and that was the absolute moral authority, we would never be able to get out of it. We would never be able to stand up and say "No, this is wrong".
tkubok
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5/10/2012 5:07:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:32:32 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
So if God ordered you to rape a 13 year old child, you would have to do it and think it was just and morally Good?

If you wanted to suppose that was possible, then yes. Unfortunately for atheists, that's not how God operates though.

Didnt God ask Abraham to sacrifice his own son? How is this in any way different?
Dan4reason
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5/10/2012 5:10:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

If I recall correctly, God will judge you for your actions, so evil people will go to hell.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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5/10/2012 5:18:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 4:57:17 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:26:26 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:09:27 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.

Then how does one get into heaven in the christian theology. How are people saved.

Well, it aint by sittin on a stump in the middle of a soybean field or waitin' around til one is moribund on a deathbed and saying, "Jesus, Lord Jesus, come into my heart and life. Thank you for saving me." That's ridiculous on the surface - and more ridiculous underneath. Sounds more like Billy Graham than the apostle Peter.
Youve told me what it aint. But you havent told me what it is.
Also, "just" and "justice" are relative concepts with wide variation even among humans. I suppose even the Islamic nutcases who whack off captives' heads think, "That's justice." You don't have to look outside of the Bible for such examples: the Bible admits of it. The apostle Paul was consenting to the death of Stephen, yet Paul was ultimately saved, yet God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for lying. Apparently God's concepts of justice are different from ours, so when you ask, "Is this just?", you are having to assume that man's ideas of justice are the same as God's: they aren't.

Im not asking how this is just from Gods eyes, im asking how this is just in YOUR eyes.

Oh, OK. So far as I personally am concerned, it doesn't appear "just" at all. However, I wouldn't (or hope I wouldn't be) ignorant enough to allow any of my own misconceptions about "love", "hate", "justice" to be the final word - even for myself. You are the first Christian that I have ever seen pose such a question, however. I'm curious as to why. I have seen such questions from little 1 by 4 atheists: intellectual peons who fashion themselves to be great rational thinkers (and able disputants, as well), when the truth is that these little pseudoscientific Darwin-wannabes wouldn't know the Apostle Paul from the witch of Endor.

Saying that it is just simply because God says so, is only an argument from authority. The problem here is how you can justify this as just, and if it isnt, why would you consider that God is just. Sure, Gods sense of justice may be different than ours, but the only way we are going to determine if this God is evil or Good, is if we use our own moral compass. Otherwise, how else could we ever make a determination as to whether this God is actually good or if hes just a evil liar?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
tkubok
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5/10/2012 5:54:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 5:10:53 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

If I recall correctly, God will judge you for your actions, so evil people will go to hell.

If i recall correctly, there are no unforgivable sins except for Blasphemy, which means that murder and rape, if rape really is a sin, can be forgiven, and therefore raping murderers can go to heaven.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/10/2012 6:03:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 5:54:52 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 5:10:53 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

If I recall correctly, God will judge you for your actions, so evil people will go to hell.

If i recall correctly, there are no unforgivable sins except for Blasphemy, which means that murder and rape, if rape really is a sin, can be forgiven, and therefore raping murderers can go to heaven.

They can, but that don't mean they will.
tkubok
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5/10/2012 6:09:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 5:18:15 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:57:17 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:26:26 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:09:27 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/10/2012 4:06:10 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/10/2012 3:19:53 PM, tkubok wrote:
GreatestIam kinda brought up an interesting thing, and its been in my mind for a while now. Id like to ask christians out there whether they would believe this was Just, and whether they could explain how this is Justice, to me.

Lets say your two daughters, one who is 13 and another who is 16, are raped, tortured, mutilated and then killed by a murderer.

That murderer is set free on a technicality, and goes back to normal life. He lives a life of doing what he wants, which includes raping and killing more little girls, but this time he isnt caught. He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later.

You and your 13 year old daughter, in heaven, encounter this man because he was saved. Your 16 year old daughter, being an atheist, is burning in hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as her lord and savior.

Please explain how this is just.

"He is about to die of old age, and on his deathbed, he sincerely converts and accepts Jesus and God into his life, before dying 2 minutes later." Not only is it not just: the premise is incorrect. If all he did was, on his deathbed, "convert" (whatever that my be" then "accept Jesus and God into his life", he has no promise of much of anything.

Of course, I am replying from your implication that God does exist and has revealed His will in the Bible. If this is true, there is no such thing as "accepting Christ and God into his life." Such phraseology is not in the Bible. It sounds more like the theology of some half-baked Baptist than the theology of the Bible.

Then how does one get into heaven in the christian theology. How are people saved.

Well, it aint by sittin on a stump in the middle of a soybean field or waitin' around til one is moribund on a deathbed and saying, "Jesus, Lord Jesus, come into my heart and life. Thank you for saving me." That's ridiculous on the surface - and more ridiculous underneath. Sounds more like Billy Graham than the apostle Peter.
Youve told me what it aint. But you havent told me what it is.
Also, "just" and "justice" are relative concepts with wide variation even among humans. I suppose even the Islamic nutcases who whack off captives' heads think, "That's justice." You don't have to look outside of the Bible for such examples: the Bible admits of it. The apostle Paul was consenting to the death of Stephen, yet Paul was ultimately saved, yet God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for lying. Apparently God's concepts of justice are different from ours, so when you ask, "Is this just?", you are having to assume that man's ideas of justice are the same as God's: they aren't.

Im not asking how this is just from Gods eyes, im asking how this is just in YOUR eyes.

Oh, OK. So far as I personally am concerned, it doesn't appear "just" at all. However, I wouldn't (or hope I wouldn't be) ignorant enough to allow any of my own misconceptions about "love", "hate", "justice" to be the final word - even for myself. You are the first Christian that I have ever seen pose such a question, however. I'm curious as to why. I have seen such questions from little 1 by 4 atheists: intellectual peons who fashion themselves to be great rational thinkers (and able disputants, as well), when the truth is that these little pseudoscientific Darwin-wannabes wouldn't know the Apostle Paul from the witch of Endor.

Sorry, im not a christian, im an atheist, which is why im asking christians how they can justify this and call it just.

Again, you told me what doesnt get you into heaven, but you have yet to tell me what does, atleast according to your view of christianity.

And furthermore, ive never really understood this argument youre making, which is essentially accusing atheists of making arguments based on a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Christianity. The fact is, there are christians who believe this. This is partly the problem with the bible, in that it is very poor in conveying what it wants, though you cant blame it since its written by multiple authors.

You can claim that ive made an argument against another version of christianity and not yours. But you still havent told me what your view of christianity is, despite the fact that i asked you in my previous comment.
cbrhawk1
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5/10/2012 6:25:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Didnt God ask Abraham to sacrifice his own son? How is this in any way different?

God was testing the will of Abraham. Abraham's son never died as a result of a request from God.

It is different because rape is not killing. They are two different actions. Whether or not one believes God ordered men to kill men is debatable depending on how seriously one takes some of the Old Testament, but it's very clear that God never ordered a rape, and only the most wild of interpretations could ever assume he did.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
tkubok
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5/10/2012 6:31:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 6:25:05 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Didnt God ask Abraham to sacrifice his own son? How is this in any way different?

God was testing the will of Abraham. Abraham's son never died as a result of a request from God.

It is different because rape is not killing. They are two different actions. Whether or not one believes God ordered men to kill men is debatable depending on how seriously one takes some of the Old Testament, but it's very clear that God never ordered a rape, and only the most wild of interpretations could ever assume he did.

First off, are you kidding me.

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. Deuteronomy 21:10-

How is this not rape.

Secondly, so how do you know that God would never test you by asking you to rape a 13 year old girl?
cbrhawk1
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5/10/2012 7:26:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
First off, are you kidding me.

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. Deuteronomy 21:10-

How is this not rape.

Secondly, so how do you know that God would never test you by asking you to rape a 13 year old girl?

First of all, this is old testament junk

Second of all, where in this does it say forced sex against her will? It simply says taking a woman as his wife. It doesn't say anywhere that she's forced to have sex with him.

Third of all, these aren't the words of God telling them to even take the girl and humble her in the first place.

But, really, your question is more trying to get me to demean myself. I'll simply answer you by stating that God has already given me my instructions, and, whatever they are, I'm to perform them.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
tkubok
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5/10/2012 9:19:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 7:26:32 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
First off, are you kidding me.

When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. Deuteronomy 21:10-

How is this not rape.

Secondly, so how do you know that God would never test you by asking you to rape a 13 year old girl?

First of all, this is old testament junk

So the entirety of the old testament is irrelevant to christianity and the bible?

Second of all, where in this does it say forced sex against her will? It simply says taking a woman as his wife. It doesn't say anywhere that she's forced to have sex with him.

What a laughable argument.

"And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;"

What do you think that part of the passage means? Are you seriously telling me that a husband would never touch his wife? Are you telling me that if the woman has a right to refuse to become the wife of the man?

Third of all, these aren't the words of God telling them to even take the girl and humble her in the first place.

Yes, it is. This is a law laid down by Moses, as Dueteronomy talks about the moral laws including the ten commandments. And at the end of the sermon, Moses clearly states, "Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day. "

But, really, your question is more trying to get me to demean myself. I'll simply answer you by stating that God has already given me my instructions, and, whatever they are, I'm to perform them.

Well, no, im trying to get you to explain and defend what you meant by "Unfortunately for atheists, that's not how God operates though."
cbrhawk1
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5/10/2012 9:46:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So the entirety of the old testament is irrelevant to christianity and the bible?
It's a great story that probably has something to do with the timeline prior o Jesus, but it has nothing to do with what we should do not or what we should believe

What a laughable argument.

"And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;"

What do you think that part of the passage means? Are you seriously telling me that a husband would never touch his wife? Are you telling me that if the woman has a right to refuse to become the wife of the man?

Did it say anything about forcing sex upon her? It said he would take her as his wife if he desired her It doesn't even say force her to be his wife, and, again, it says nothing about forcing sex upon her.

Nothing about rape, nothing about forced sex.

You're stuffing those messages in there yourself.

Yes, it is. This is a law laid down by Moses, as Dueteronomy talks about the moral laws including the ten commandments. And at the end of the sermon, Moses clearly states, "Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day. "

According to what you gave me, the captives were given by God. God didn't say "Take this woman as your wife." God basically just gave captives for Moses or whatever to use.

That's not the voice of God, that is God giving something, and it doesn't say God gave anybody girl to rape.

Well, no, im trying to get you to explain and defend what you meant by "Unfortunately for atheists, that's not how God operates though."

There's nothing in the way of current personal testimony that says that's close to how God operates. Now, if you want to pull up stories that happened before Christ thousands of years prior, sure, that's up to you, but that applies to that time, and not now (I made that statement for the present day and how God operates now, not how people said he operated in the past).
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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5/10/2012 11:57:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This thread has provided some of the wildest and most entertaining belief justifications I have read in a while. Thank you to the OP.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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vmpire321
Posts: 4,731
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5/11/2012 12:06:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
wooooahhhh.

I havent seem most of the people who posted in this thread ever before o.0!

but then again, I'm not active in the religion forum.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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5/11/2012 12:08:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/10/2012 11:57:32 PM, Maikuru wrote:
This thread has provided some of the wildest and most entertaining belief justifications I have read in a while. Thank you to the OP.

I second this wholeheartedly.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.