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Total Depravity

Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/11/2012 6:54:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

I'd be interesting in seeing some examples of this. It would seem to me that it's a package deal. If you accept the concept of needing salvation, then I don't see how they'd also reject the concept of needing Christ to attain that salvation.


And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

I say Jack Chick does this with more flair.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/11/2012 6:56:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

Sounds more like the theology of Calvin than anything you'd find in the Bible.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/11/2012 7:03:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:56:05 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

Sounds more like the theology of Calvin than anything you'd find in the Bible.


Romans 3:9-20

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

You manipulate this as much as you want, but in the end, it's pretty self explanitory.

The only way to get around this, is to add to the scripture(and we know thats a no no).
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/11/2012 7:22:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And has it has been said, this kind of reasoning is the born sick yet commanded to be well.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/11/2012 7:48:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 7:22:06 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
And has it has been said, this kind of reasoning is the born sick yet commanded to be well.


Born sick, die sick.

it was an option - be perfect, or believe in my Son.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/11/2012 7:53:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.


then shut up and stay out of it..?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/11/2012 8:10:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 7:53:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.


then shut up and stay out of it..?

Then dont post on a public forums...?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/11/2012 8:19:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:10:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:53:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.


then shut up and stay out of it..?

Then dont post on a public forums...?


lol...what?

you came in here and posted about how you have nothing to say!..

i was just offering a solution to your dilema. ;)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/11/2012 8:30:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:19:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 8:10:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:53:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.


then shut up and stay out of it..?

Then dont post on a public forums...?


lol...what?

you came in here and posted about how you have nothing to say!..

i was just offering a solution to your dilema. ;)

No, he posted about how the utility of your post is absolutely nil. That's what he had to say and he made the point rather succinctly.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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5/11/2012 8:32:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:19:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 8:10:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:53:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.


then shut up and stay out of it..?

Then dont post on a public forums...?


lol...what?

you came in here and posted about how you have nothing to say!..

i was just offering a solution to your dilema. ;)

I dont have a dilemma. I know my answer. You on the other hand, asked me to shut up and stay out of it, so clearly you have the dilemma.

My solution to your dilemma is clear.

Have a nice day.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/11/2012 8:38:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

Wrong, a sinner is defined a someone who sins.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

Yes. It makes no sense that brutally murdering someone will somehow make us not require punishment.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

How exactly does he shield us?

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Agreed.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

Why?

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Many people uphold the law to a great extent. Many people do love their neighbors. While not everyone loved God perfectly, many people love God quite a bit.

We are not capable of change.

I have seen many people improve.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

Why do you say that?

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Why such a harsh penalty for not being perfect?

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

How does his help me?
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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5/11/2012 8:43:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

You're confusing cause and effect. We are sinners because we sin. Sinner literally means "one who sins."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/11/2012 8:56:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:43:36 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

You're confusing cause and effect. We are sinners because we sin. Sinner literally means "one who sins."


You missing the point.

Sin is a condition, and extends far beyond our actions and words.. its rotting in our hearts.

If we were not sinners, we would not sin.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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5/11/2012 10:11:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:56:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 8:43:36 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

You're confusing cause and effect. We are sinners because we sin. Sinner literally means "one who sins."


You missing the point.

Sin is a condition, and extends far beyond our actions and words.. its rotting in our hearts.

If we were not sinners, we would not sin.

I am not missing the point. You are confusing cause and effect, which is a logical fallacy.

That's like saying I sing because I'm a singer. That's incorrect. You're not a singer until you start singing.

You're not a sinner until you sin. We are born into a world of sin, under the stain of original sin, but we are not held responsible for Adam's sin. After all, the wages of sin is death, but two people in Scriture were bodily ascended into Heaven without dying (Enoch and Elijah).
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/11/2012 10:33:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What are you guys arguing about? Why couldn't these both be true?

If we were not sinners, we would not sin.
We are sinners because we sin.

I'm a chain smoker (I'm not really) because I chain smoke. That doesn't keep the following from being true: "If I wasn't a chain smoker, I wouldn't chain smoke."
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/12/2012 12:20:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 10:11:44 PM, KeytarHero wrote:


You're not a sinner until you sin. We are born into a world of sin, under the stain of original sin, but we are not held responsible for Adam's sin. After all, the wages of sin is death, but two people in Scriture were bodily ascended into Heaven without dying (Enoch and Elijah).

I agree with KeytarHero on this point: We inherit the consequence's of Adam's sin, not the guilt. I have plenty of my own guilt (:
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/12/2012 5:03:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

How about:

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.


or

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!


?
The Cross.. the Cross.
wiploc
Posts: 1,485
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5/12/2012 9:16:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:56:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
If we were not sinners, we would not sin.

There's no way you can make sense of the Adam and Eve story if you take that line.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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5/12/2012 11:13:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

No, we arent "born sinners", if that's what you mean.



Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Depends on your definition of "better".

Matter of fact, we are worse!

I doubt that.


We are not capable of change.

Yes we are.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

No, He didn't.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

We were gonna die whether we were perfect or not.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

Christ was perfect - He died.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

I say you are spewing that man is born a hereditarily totally depraved black-hearted sinner. Then, if a man is ever saved at all, it takes a miracle to do it. Not only that, it takes another miracle to keep him saved. It's TULIC to the core.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 12:35:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 12:20:05 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/11/2012 10:11:44 PM, KeytarHero wrote:


You're not a sinner until you sin. We are born into a world of sin, under the stain of original sin, but we are not held responsible for Adam's sin. After all, the wages of sin is death, but two people in Scriture were bodily ascended into Heaven without dying (Enoch and Elijah).

I agree with KeytarHero on this point: We inherit the consequence's of Adam's sin, not the guilt. I have plenty of my own guilt (:


I agree as well..?

But the consequence is: we are sinners.

Sin is a noun, more then a verb.

We persons of Sin.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 12:36:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 8:32:43 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 8:19:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 8:10:57 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:53:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/11/2012 7:49:24 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

So christ died in order to kill me. Okay. Makes no sense, but still, i have nothing to say to this, because it is useless to someone who doesnt believe that Christ died for anything.


then shut up and stay out of it..?

Then dont post on a public forums...?


lol...what?

you came in here and posted about how you have nothing to say!..

i was just offering a solution to your dilema. ;)

I dont have a dilemma. I know my answer. You on the other hand, asked me to shut up and stay out of it, so clearly you have the dilemma.

My solution to your dilemma is clear.

Have a nice day.


Apologies.. it was rude of me.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 1:11:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/11/2012 10:11:44 PM, KeytarHero wrote:
I am not missing the point. You are confusing cause and effect, which is a logical fallacy.

Your confusing the noun and the adjective, for the verb.

If my heart wasn't wicked, i wouldn't sin. better?

Jeremiah 17:9-10
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

10 "I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
according to what their deeds deserve."

Did he just say the heart is beyond cure?? what does he mean?

That's like saying I sing because I'm a singer. That's incorrect. You're not a singer until you start singing.

Not true, you can be a singer at heart. ;p lol

Even using the verb(sin), you must ask, well why is sin even attractive to me?

Food is attractive to me, because i'm a human and i need it; Sin is attractive to me, because i'm a sinner, and my body is slave to it.

You're not a sinner until you sin. We are born into a world of sin, under the stain of original sin, but we are not held responsible for Adam's sin. After all, the wages of sin is death, but two people in Scriture were bodily ascended into Heaven without dying (Enoch and Elijah).


Who said we are held accountable for adams sin?

We are totally depraved from conception.. our own first thoughts are of ourselves!

As far as Enoch and Elijah go, there is nothing in the scriptures that implies that either of them attained slavation by living a perfect life - after all, we know the all are unrighteous(like i posted on the first page - everyone seems to have missed this so far...)

Not one - includes elijah and enoch.

The truth is; there is really no explanation for why God did what he did with those 2. But we can deffinitely rule out perfection(per romans 3).

You actually have to invent a new deffinition of perfection and depravtiy to hold the view we are still capable of righteousness in this life.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 1:38:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 5:03:00 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/11/2012 6:35:33 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Lets get this straight.

We Sin, because we're Sinners; We are not Sinners, because we Sin.

I am hearing far to often, that we as humans, have any chance of attaining salvation without Christ.

And when i say without Christ, I mean without him taking the entire blow of the LAW, and shielding us from the consequences we entirely deserve.

Not one of us Christians, are any better, then any athiest, agnostic, bhuddist, hinudist, spaghetti monster worshiping, pagan.

Matter of fact, we are worse!

You will never uphold the Law; you will never love you neighbor as your self and you will never love God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

We are not capable of change.

Christ didn't come to help you become a better you; he came to kill you.

You cannot be perfect. Thats why we must die.

Christ died for this reason, so give him glory, and save none for yourselves.

lets keep CHRIST- in CHRISTIANITY. Stop adding yourself and petty works to the credits.

What say you!?

How about:

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.



Well spoken, and a fabulous selection.

How does this oppose what i've said?

or

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!


?


Lol yes, because we're clothed in his righteousness(not our own), and our sin has been put to death in the sight of God.

don't you see this has nothing to do with us, it is ALL about Christ.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/12/2012 1:39:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 12:35:20 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 12:20:05 AM, stubs wrote:

I agree with KeytarHero on this point: We inherit the consequence's of Adam's sin, not the guilt. I have plenty of my own guilt (:


I agree as well..?

But the consequence is: we are sinners.

Sin is a noun, more then a verb.

We persons of Sin.

I would respectfully disagree that the consequence is we are sinners. I have not seen that supported in any of my reading of scripture. After the fall we see a broken relationship between 1) self 2) others 3) nature 4) God. The wages of sin is death. We are not guilty sinners because Adam and Eve sinned. We inherited the consequences of sin which were death, evil ect.
Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 2:22:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 1:39:09 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 12:35:20 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 12:20:05 AM, stubs wrote:

I agree with KeytarHero on this point: We inherit the consequence's of Adam's sin, not the guilt. I have plenty of my own guilt (:


I agree as well..?

But the consequence is: we are sinners.

Sin is a noun, more then a verb.

We persons of Sin.

I would respectfully disagree that the consequence is we are sinners. I have not seen that supported in any of my reading of scripture. After the fall we see a broken relationship between 1) self 2) others 3) nature 4) God. The wages of sin is death. We are not guilty sinners because Adam and Eve sinned. We inherited the consequences of sin which were death, evil ect.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins(is he saying the same thing twice?), 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them**.

So you see, the Good works aren't our own, they are Christs.

He is not saying we cease to sin, he is saying we are now viewed as saints, because he views us through Christ!

We are 'by nature' children of wrath.

By nature - condition or circumstance as determined by birth.

If we are no born sinners - we are born innocent.

and if we are born innocent, we can then choose to be evil or good. Why does everyone, except Christ, choose evil??

Here's a few scriptures that describe this:

Gen 8:21 - from youth up the natural intent of a human heart is toward evil.

Jer 17:9-10 - the human heart is desperately wicked and sick. The problem is not that we
sin; it's that we are naturally bent at our deepest level fully towards sin.

1 Cor 1:18; 2:14 - man in his natural state finds the gospel foolish and incomprehensible.
Notice, it is all of humanity, Jew and Gentile alike, in their "natural" state. They are not
blind because of their sin (though sin leads to further blindness - Rom 1:18), they are
blind by nature.

2 Cor 4:3-4 - unbelieving mankind is under the blinding power of Satan. Again, this does
not seem to be because they have sinned but something that is a natural part of the state
they are in.

[ http://www.grace-bible.org... ]
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/12/2012 3:17:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 2:22:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Here's a few scriptures that describe this:

Gen 8:21 - from youth up the natural intent of a human heart is toward evil.

Jer 17:9-10 - the human heart is desperately wicked and sick. The problem is not that we
sin; it's that we are naturally bent at our deepest level fully towards sin.

1 Cor 1:18; 2:14 - man in his natural state finds the gospel foolish and incomprehensible.
Notice, it is all of humanity, Jew and Gentile alike, in their "natural" state. They are not
blind because of their sin (though sin leads to further blindness - Rom 1:18), they are
blind by nature.

2 Cor 4:3-4 - unbelieving mankind is under the blinding power of Satan. Again, this does
not seem to be because they have sinned but something that is a natural part of the state
they are in.

[ http://www.grace-bible.org... ]

Did you actually read these verses and come to those conclusions or just take them from the website. I don't see how anyone could possible come to those conclusions from those verses. I will gladly give you reasons I disagree with your exegesis of all those verses when I have time, but just as example 1 Cor 2:14 - The Greek word for natural man is psuchikos. It describes the materialist, who lives as if there were nothing beyond this physical life.
Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 3:21:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 3:17:24 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 2:22:00 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Here's a few scriptures that describe this:

Gen 8:21 - from youth up the natural intent of a human heart is toward evil.

Jer 17:9-10 - the human heart is desperately wicked and sick. The problem is not that we
sin; it's that we are naturally bent at our deepest level fully towards sin.

1 Cor 1:18; 2:14 - man in his natural state finds the gospel foolish and incomprehensible.
Notice, it is all of humanity, Jew and Gentile alike, in their "natural" state. They are not
blind because of their sin (though sin leads to further blindness - Rom 1:18), they are
blind by nature.

2 Cor 4:3-4 - unbelieving mankind is under the blinding power of Satan. Again, this does
not seem to be because they have sinned but something that is a natural part of the state
they are in.

[ http://www.grace-bible.org... ]

Did you actually read these verses and come to those conclusions or just take them from the website. I don't see how anyone could possible come to those conclusions from those verses. I will gladly give you reasons I disagree with your exegesis of all those verses when I have time, but just as example 1 Cor 2:14 - The Greek word for natural man is psuchikos. It describes the materialist, who lives as if there were nothing beyond this physical life.


I came to the conclusions long ago, i just thought thims a quick way to establish the interpretation.

There is nothing to disagree with.. you have to add to the scripture to come to any other conclusion.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.