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Christ: Savior or Example?

Paradox_7
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5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/12/2012 3:37:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Is it not clear that he is our Savior, and also was an example for living?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/12/2012 3:46:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 3:37:50 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Is it not clear that he is our Savior, and also was an example for living?


It obviously isn't, because i hear people suggesting salvation is a joint effort.

like a partnership, and i am wondering what exactly Christ did, if he did not rescue us of our 'total depravity'

i am not specifically arguing about 'total depravity' again, but i would like to hear how people have come to the conclusion that we were simply offered another chance by Christ, rather than salvation by unconditional Grace.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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5/12/2012 8:17:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 3:46:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:37:50 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Is it not clear that he is our Savior, and also was an example for living?


It obviously isn't, because i hear people suggesting salvation is a joint effort.

Ummm, I doubt that. There's not a person on here (that I know of) who suggests such a thing. You, however, think a person is saved before and possibly without faith, without repentance, without baptism - without anything and everything. Hence, with you, every case of conversion is a miracle.

i am not specifically arguing about 'total depravity' again,

Indirectly, you are.

but i would like to hear how people have come to the conclusion that we were simply offered another chance by Christ, rather than salvation by unconditional Grace.

And I would like to hear exactly what happens to non-elect babies who die.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/13/2012 3:58:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/12/2012 8:17:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:46:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:37:50 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Is it not clear that he is our Savior, and also was an example for living?


It obviously isn't, because i hear people suggesting salvation is a joint effort.

Ummm, I doubt that. There's not a person on here (that I know of) who suggests such a thing.

If you believe that once you've been given salvation, you can loose it, then you believe it's a joint effort.

You, however, think a person is saved before and possibly without faith, without repentance, without baptism - without anything and everything. Hence, with you, every case of conversion is a miracle.

lol, i have no idea where you got that idea..

I believe all glory goes to God.

You cannot be saved without faith, and you cannot bring about faith in God.
God gave us the faith..

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Because God blessed us with the Spirit, we feel convicted, and we cannot help but repent(continually). This does not say we cease to sin; it is simply not us who does it any longer - but our sinful nature.

Baptism is not needed for salvation, but it is for those who've been saved.

hence the thief who died on the cross next to Christ; surely he had not been baptized..lol


i am not specifically arguing about 'total depravity' again,

Indirectly, you are.

but i would like to hear how people have come to the conclusion that we were simply offered another chance by Christ, rather than salvation by unconditional Grace.

And I would like to hear exactly what happens to non-elect babies who die.

the same thing that happens to non-elect adults..

are children innocent? of course not.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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5/13/2012 4:06:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 3:58:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 8:17:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:46:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:37:50 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Is it not clear that he is our Savior, and also was an example for living?


It obviously isn't, because i hear people suggesting salvation is a joint effort.

Ummm, I doubt that. There's not a person on here (that I know of) who suggests such a thing.

If you believe that once you've been given salvation, you can loose it, then you believe it's a joint effort.

You, however, think a person is saved before and possibly without faith, without repentance, without baptism - without anything and everything. Hence, with you, every case of conversion is a miracle.

lol, i have no idea where you got that idea..

Well, I can tell you where! A totally depraved sinner CANNOT possibly come to God without direct intervention on the part of God, can he? A direct intervention that sets aside all the laws of nature. That, sir, is a miracle, just like a leopard changing its spots or an Ethiopian changing his skin color. God brings about a miraculous conversion often against the will of the person. That's where the concept comes from.

I believe all glory goes to God.

You cannot be saved without faith, and you cannot bring about faith in God.
God gave us the faith..

Certainly! And He either does so (1) through the Word of God or (2) directly, by means of miraculous influence. Since you do not believe a totally depraved man can come to God via the Word, that leaves you with option (2).

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Because God blessed us with the Spirit, we feel convicted, and we cannot help but repent(continually). This does not say we cease to sin; it is simply not us who does it any longer - but our sinful nature.

Baptism is not needed for salvation, but it is for those who've been saved.

hence the thief who died on the cross next to Christ; surely he had not been baptized..lol

And surely you don't know whether the thief was ever baptized or not. "lol" that. If you think you can prove he wasn't, go right ahead.


i am not specifically arguing about 'total depravity' again,

Indirectly, you are.

but i would like to hear how people have come to the conclusion that we were simply offered another chance by Christ, rather than salvation by unconditional Grace.

And I would like to hear exactly what happens to non-elect babies who die.


the same thing that happens to non-elect adults..

are children innocent? of course not.

Lemme get this straight. As you stand at the grave of a 1-hour old infant, you can tell the parents that the soul of their deceased child just MIGHT be in the pits of Tartarus or Gehenna (Hell)? You think the infant inherited some kinda sin just like it inherited its eye color?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/13/2012 4:53:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 4:06:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/13/2012 3:58:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 8:17:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:46:29 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:37:50 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/12/2012 3:28:46 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I am curious as to what all the Christians think Christ's work was for.

Was he an example on how to live, and granted you the ability to do so?
Or

Did he die to save sinners for there inability to uphold the LAW?

*Please use scripture to reference your understanding.

Why are these mutually exclusive? Is it not clear that he is our Savior, and also was an example for living?


It obviously isn't, because i hear people suggesting salvation is a joint effort.

Ummm, I doubt that. There's not a person on here (that I know of) who suggests such a thing.

If you believe that once you've been given salvation, you can loose it, then you believe it's a joint effort.

You, however, think a person is saved before and possibly without faith, without repentance, without baptism - without anything and everything. Hence, with you, every case of conversion is a miracle.

lol, i have no idea where you got that idea..

Well, I can tell you where! A totally depraved sinner CANNOT possibly come to God without direct intervention on the part of God, can he? A direct intervention that sets aside all the laws of nature. That, sir, is a miracle, just like a leopard changing its spots or an Ethiopian changing his skin color. God brings about a miraculous conversion often against the will of the person. That's where the concept comes from.

lol no he cannot.. that's the point.
He doesn't do it often. He always does it against their will. he only does it against our will.

You just can admit it can you? we are sh*t.. get over it.

I believe all glory goes to God.

You cannot be saved without faith, and you cannot bring about faith in God.
God gave us the faith..

Certainly! And He either does so (1) through the Word of God or (2) directly, by means of miraculous influence. Since you do not believe a totally depraved man can come to God via the Word, that leaves you with option (2).

You need (2) to get (1).

how can a corpse discover a feast(the word) if it is dead? only God can bring about life, and it is through the son. No one "comes to God", God comes to us.

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Because God blessed us with the Spirit, we feel convicted, and we cannot help but repent(continually). This does not say we cease to sin; it is simply not us who does it any longer - but our sinful nature.

Baptism is not needed for salvation, but it is for those who've been saved.

hence the thief who died on the cross next to Christ; surely he had not been baptized..lol

And surely you don't know whether the thief was ever baptized or not. "lol" that. If you think you can prove he wasn't, go right ahead.


I love how you ignore the passage.

It says faith was distributed to us.. can you tell me what the means, plainly, without adding yourself to the word of God..


i am not specifically arguing about 'total depravity' again,

Indirectly, you are.

but i would like to hear how people have come to the conclusion that we were simply offered another chance by Christ, rather than salvation by unconditional Grace.

And I would like to hear exactly what happens to non-elect babies who die.


the same thing that happens to non-elect adults..

are children innocent? of course not.

Lemme get this straight. As you stand at the grave of a 1-hour old infant, you can tell the parents that the soul of their deceased child just MIGHT be in the pits of Tartarus or Gehenna (Hell)? You think the infant inherited some kinda sin just like it inherited its eye color?


No, i couldn't tell them that. Doesn't mean it isn't true.

Yes.

I am a father, trust me, this isn't something i haven't struggled with.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/13/2012 5:09:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 4:14:55 PM, stubs wrote:
Paradox,
Do you believe people are predestined to Hell?


Yes.

Romans 9:6-29

God's Sovereign Choice

6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badin order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who callsshe was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them ‘my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
26 and,

"In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,'
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.'"
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/13/2012 5:23:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 5:09:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 4:14:55 PM, stubs wrote:
Paradox,
Do you believe people are predestined to Hell?


Yes.

Romans 9:6-29

God's Sovereign Choice

6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badin order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who callsshe was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them ‘my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
26 and,

"In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,'
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.'"
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."


And you also believe that Hell is eternal conscious torment at the same time, correct?
Paradox_7
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5/13/2012 5:32:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 5:23:02 PM, Rusty wrote:
And you also believe that Hell is eternal conscious torment at the same time, correct?


Luke 16:19-28
19 There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25 But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
27 He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment


Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matt 25:37-41
37 Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?
40 The King will reply, Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. 41 Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt 18:8 - "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,"

2 Thess 1:9 - "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"

Jude 7 - "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire"

Jude 12-13 - These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever,"

Matt 13:42 - They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Yes.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/13/2012 6:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:30:51 PM, Rusty wrote:
That wasn't necessary, but thanks for elaborating.


lol it was absolutely necessary.

its always necessary.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/13/2012 6:47:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:39:35 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:30:51 PM, Rusty wrote:
That wasn't necessary, but thanks for elaborating.


lol it was absolutely necessary.

its always necessary.

Hm? Nope. I asked what if you believed that Hell was eternal conscious torment. That answer doesn't require biblical supplementation.
stubs
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5/13/2012 6:50:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Paradox,
Can you give some of your exegesis on those passages. I am not seeing how those show God predestines people to Hell.

So in your opinion, someone such as Pharaoh had no chance at going to heaven?
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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5/13/2012 6:54:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:39:35 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:30:51 PM, Rusty wrote:
That wasn't necessary, but thanks for elaborating.


lol it was absolutely necessary.

its always necessary.

Hey since ya quoted a verse on "election", could you explain for all of us: "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:" I thought the "election", according to you, was "sure" from time immemorial - fixed in eternity. If it's already sure, how can ya "make it sure". And "if" ... i-f ... IF ye do these things. Does that imply that ya might not do 'em? Please answer for us.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/13/2012 7:22:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:50:32 PM, stubs wrote:
Paradox,
Can you give some of your exegesis on those passages. I am not seeing how those show God predestines people to Hell.

So in your opinion, someone such as Pharaoh had no chance at going to heaven?


the passages i quoted for rusty, were in regards to eternal torment.

The romans 9 quote was pretty plain..

if you pay attention to the emphasis, you must be able to understand why i believe there are people intended to suffer.

If it is not determined by out works or our desire, then it is beyond our choice.. if God chose whom he'd would have mercy, then it follows that he chose some for destruction..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/13/2012 7:27:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 6:54:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:39:35 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:30:51 PM, Rusty wrote:
That wasn't necessary, but thanks for elaborating.


lol it was absolutely necessary.

its always necessary.

Hey since ya quoted a verse on "election", could you explain for all of us: "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:" I thought the "election", according to you, was "sure" from time immemorial - fixed in eternity. If it's already sure, how can ya "make it sure". And "if" ... i-f ... IF ye do these things. Does that imply that ya might not do 'em? Please answer for us.


Yep. But it's pretty obvious we stumble every minute, of every hour, of every day..

do you think you are more righteous then others because of your works??

didn't i just give you a passage from Romans 12 referring to how we've received pardon?

This is very sad.. I simply refer to the ample scriptures, explicitly telling you how you are saved, and that it is not of ourselves.. but you fight and struggle to save some credit for yourselves!

In the name of Christ our lord and SAVIOR i rebuke you!...lol

in love of course.. because we are all still saved thru Christ, and are brothers and sisters in him.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
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5/14/2012 8:32:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/13/2012 7:27:04 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:54:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:39:35 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:30:51 PM, Rusty wrote:
That wasn't necessary, but thanks for elaborating.


lol it was absolutely necessary.

its always necessary.

Hey since ya quoted a verse on "election", could you explain for all of us: "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:" I thought the "election", according to you, was "sure" from time immemorial - fixed in eternity. If it's already sure, how can ya "make it sure". And "if" ... i-f ... IF ye do these things. Does that imply that ya might not do 'em? Please answer for us.


Yep. But it's pretty obvious we stumble every minute, of every hour, of every day..

OK, I'll ask, "do you do anything to make your calling and election sure?" The way I see it, you'd almost have to say, "No, ma'am, I don't. My calling and election were sure from way back - I don't do a thing." But you answer in your own words.

do you think you are more righteous then others because of your works??

More righteous? Define the term.

didn't i just give you a passage from Romans 12 referring to how we've received pardon?

Oh, you quoted a passage without much comment, 'bout like you did "by nature the children of wrath."

This is very sad.. I simply refer to the ample scriptures, explicitly telling you how you are saved, and that it is not of ourselves.. but you fight and struggle to save some credit for yourselves!

LOL @ "some credit." I take no credit at all! I've never heard of anyone who did.

In the name of Christ our lord and SAVIOR i rebuke you!...lol

in love of course.. because we are all still saved thru Christ, and are brothers and sisters in him.

Yeah, well, the passages ""Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble" isn't merely talking about "tripping up and stumbling". The same scenario is broadened in Heb 6:

For it is impossible for those who were (1) once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were (2) made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have (3) tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,if they shall fall away (having fallen away), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

And Gal 5: 4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Who's the "you"? Galatian Christians.

Same line of thought as II Pet 1: 10
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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5/15/2012 3:03:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/14/2012 8:32:54 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/13/2012 7:27:04 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:54:09 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:39:35 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/13/2012 6:30:51 PM, Rusty wrote:
That wasn't necessary, but thanks for elaborating.


lol it was absolutely necessary.

its always necessary.

Hey since ya quoted a verse on "election", could you explain for all of us: "Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:" I thought the "election", according to you, was "sure" from time immemorial - fixed in eternity. If it's already sure, how can ya "make it sure". And "if" ... i-f ... IF ye do these things. Does that imply that ya might not do 'em? Please answer for us.


Yep. But it's pretty obvious we stumble every minute, of every hour, of every day..

OK, I'll ask, "do you do anything to make your calling and election sure?" The way I see it, you'd almost have to say, "No, ma'am, I don't. My calling and election were sure from way back - I don't do a thing." But you answer in your own words.

do you think you are more righteous then others because of your works??

More righteous? Define the term.

didn't i just give you a passage from Romans 12 referring to how we've received pardon?

Oh, you quoted a passage without much comment, 'bout like you did "by nature the children of wrath."

This is very sad.. I simply refer to the ample scriptures, explicitly telling you how you are saved, and that it is not of ourselves.. but you fight and struggle to save some credit for yourselves!

LOL @ "some credit." I take no credit at all! I've never heard of anyone who did.

In the name of Christ our lord and SAVIOR i rebuke you!...lol

in love of course.. because we are all still saved thru Christ, and are brothers and sisters in him.

Yeah, well, the passages ""Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble" isn't merely talking about "tripping up and stumbling". The same scenario is broadened in Heb 6:

For it is impossible for those who were (1) once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were (2) made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have (3) tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,if they shall fall away (having fallen away), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

And Gal 5: 4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Who's the "you"? Galatian Christians.

Same line of thought as II Pet 1: 10

By the way, your theology leaves no room at all for falling from grace, and is actually easily disproven from that standpoint. Like I said, "Miracle to get you saved, and a miracle to keep you that way."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
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5/15/2012 5:48:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/14/2012 8:32:54 AM, annanicole wrote:
OK, I'll ask, "do you do anything to make your calling and election sure?" The way I see it, you'd almost have to say, "No, ma'am, I don't. My calling and election were sure from way back - I don't do a thing." But you answer in your own words.


And you would be correct!! I have nothing to do with my election!! don't you get it!! GET OVER YOUR SELF!!

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Message:
Try to be humble because God gave everything to you...

do you think you are more righteous then others because of your works??

More righteous? Define the term.


In better standing with God because of your actions.

didn't i just give you a passage from Romans 12 referring to how we've received pardon?

Oh, you quoted a passage without much comment, 'bout like you did "by nature the children of wrath."


Because it should be that easy to understand what is being said!! read above^^

This is very sad.. I simply refer to the ample scriptures, explicitly telling you how you are saved, and that it is not of ourselves.. but you fight and struggle to save some credit for yourselves!

LOL @ "some credit." I take no credit at all! I've never heard of anyone who did.


You are crazy!!.. lol how can you not be taking credit!! you think that you can earn your salvation, and you think God lowers the standard so that you can be saved of your own merits!!

You keep saying what you don't belive, but not a damn thing about what you do! you're starting to sound like logicrules.. lol

In the name of Christ our lord and SAVIOR i rebuke you!...lol

in love of course.. because we are all still saved thru Christ, and are brothers and sisters in him.

Yeah, well, the passages ""Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble" isn't merely talking about "tripping up and stumbling". The same scenario is broadened in Heb 6:


No not literally, but he is talking about minimizing our stuggle in this life.

after all -

John 10
25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

No one, means no one.
I am someone
therefore i cannot remove myself from his hand.

For it is impossible for those who were (1) once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were (2) made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have (3) tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,if they shall fall away (having fallen away), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


This is so sad; You are doing the very thing he is waring us about.

The entire context of Hebrews, is establishing Christ superiority, over everyone.

The whole theme of the new testament is of how better it is with Christ.. He put to death the old ways: Trusting in temple sacrifice and The Law in order to be justified.

The point of this, was to give you assurance in his saving work. The one's who've fallen away, are those whom go to church and take communion, speak as if they are elect, but still believe in their own works, over Christs.

Dangerous grounds to belittle the Work of Christ.

And Gal 5: 4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Who's the "you"? Galatian Christians.

Same line of thought as II Pet 1: 10


The "you" are the people who've decided that Christs work wasn't enough to save you from yourself!! those who believe that man isn't totally depraved, those who still strive to uphold the law with their own mold of justification.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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5/16/2012 1:31:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 5:48:31 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/14/2012 8:32:54 AM, annanicole wrote:
OK, I'll ask, "do you do anything to make your calling and election sure?" The way I see it, you'd almost have to say, "No, ma'am, I don't. My calling and election were sure from way back - I don't do a thing." But you answer in your own words.


And you would be correct!! I have nothing to do with my election!! don't you get it!! GET OVER YOUR SELF!!

Oh, sir, I am very much "over myself." I simply know that Peter told "brethren" to make their calling and election sure. Yet if I ask you: "What do you do to make your calling and election sure?", your reply is, "Nothing!" Then why, pray tell, the exhortation?

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Message:
Try to be humble because God gave everything to you...

Nobody is doubting that, but your position is that He gives/gave it unconditionally.

do you think you are more righteous then others because of your works??

More righteous? Define the term.


In better standing with God because of your actions.

That's not the correct defintion of "righteous" or "more righteous" in the first place, but, absolutely a person places himself in a position for God to account him righteous.

didn't i just give you a passage from Romans 12 referring to how we've received pardon?

Oh, you quoted a passage without much comment, 'bout like you did "by nature the children of wrath."

You know, I've asked you FOUR times if the word translated "nature" CAN mean "by custom, by habit due to repeated behavior" and thus far, silence. Well, can it or not?




This is very sad.. I simply refer to the ample scriptures, explicitly telling you how you are saved, and that it is not of ourselves.. but you fight and struggle to save some credit for yourselves!

LOL @ "some credit." I take no credit at all! I've never heard of anyone who did.


You are crazy!!.. lol how can you not be taking credit!! you think that you can earn your salvation, and you think God lowers the standard so that you can be saved of your own merits!!

No, I don't. Your actually silly enough to think that if a man is drowning, and the captain of the boat throws him a rope and he grabs it, he SAVED himself. How silly! If a man is dying of thirst, and you grab a glass, go to the well, take it to him, and hand it to him - and the man simply accepts it and drinks it, you think he SAVED himself. You confuse conditions that God has set forth with meritorious works and earning salvation! You can't earn it. You simply have the nasty little habit of setting up your "straw man" of "earning salvation" when you know good and well that no one teaches it. Get it good! No one that I know of is teaching "go to heaven based solely upon your own good works." Not a soul! And if you can't get there based upon complying with conditions, then ya didn't earn it.

You keep saying what you don't belive, but not a damn thing about what you do! you're starting to sound like logicrules.. lol

I very plainly believe that God has graciously offered salvation based upon certain conditions that He set forth. I didn't come up with them. THAT is what I believe.

In the name of Christ our lord and SAVIOR i rebuke you!...lol

Yeah, well, thanks. But I tell ya what: I'd rather take a "rebuking" from someone who didn't believe God hands an unborn fetus an unelect spirit just so it can coast along and, alas, wound up in hell at least with no choice whatsoever in the matter. And all based upon an imaginary, vague "original sin" that God didn't see fit to miraculously remove.


Yeah, well, the passages ""Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble" isn't merely talking about "tripping up and stumbling". The same scenario is broadened in Heb 6:


No not literally, but he is talking about minimizing our stuggle in this life.

No, he's not. There's not a frazzling word there about "minimizing a struggle", is there?

after all -

John 10
25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Right. They did not believe in the works that Jesus did because they refused to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

So? "My sheep". Believers. "My believers hear my voice. They follow me. And after they do that, I give unto them eternal life. And then they shall never perish - at that point, no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Look at your order: (1) I give unto them eternal life before they are born (2) they are sheep before they are born (3) after they are born, they "hear my voice" and follow me because they have no choice. That entire passage does not support your doctrine - the order is all wrong.

And who are His sheep?

Obedient believer. Those who believe in Christ and follow him.

No one, means no one.
I am someone
therefore i cannot remove myself from his hand.

No, you can't. You can't place yourself IN his hand, and you can't REMOVE yourself, either. Who said you could? God does that based upon your choices.

For it is impossible for those who were (1) once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were (2) made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have (3) tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,if they shall fall away (having fallen away), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


This is so sad; You are doing the very thing he is waring us about.

The entire context of Hebrews, is establishing Christ superiority, over everyone.

The whole theme of the new testament is of how better it is with Christ.. He put to death the old ways: Trusting in temple sacrifice and The Law in order to be justified.

So what? That dissertation doesn't even attempt to explain the passage.

The point of this, was to give you assurance in his saving work. The one's who've fallen away, are those whom go to church and take communion, speak as if they are elect, but still believe in their own works, over Christs.

Oh, no. The point is: they were "once enlightened..and were made p-a-r-t-a-k-e-r-s of the Holy Ghost", i. e. they were saved. I challenge you to analyze those descriptors one-by-one and deny it. Well, then what? "Having fallen away". They didn't just trip. They didn't just stumble. In fact, they reverted to Judaism after having come out of it. And

Dangerous grounds to belittle the Work of Christ.

And Gal 5: 4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Who's the "you"? Galatian Christians.

Same line of thought as II Pet 1: 10


The "you" are the people who've decided that Christs work wasn't enough to save you from yourself!! those who believe that man isn't totally depraved, those who still strive to uphold the law with their own mold of justification.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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5/16/2012 1:46:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/15/2012 5:48:31 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/14/2012 8:32:54 AM, annanicole wrote:


Dangerous grounds to belittle the Work of Christ.

And Gal 5: 4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Who's the "you"? Galatian Christians.

Same line of thought as II Pet 1: 10


The "you" are the people who've decided that Christs work wasn't enough to save you from yourself!! those who believe that man isn't totally depraved, those who still strive to uphold the law with their own mold of justification.

No matter how you might speculate and describe the folks, you left one tiny tidbit out. The people reference were Galatian Christians who had been IN grace. Get it? You can't by "fallen FROM grace" if ya weren't ever "IN grace." You can't fall FROM the boat unless you were ON the boat. Those saved people sought to ADD TO the commands of Jesus Christ by following the old Jewish law, I think. But no matter what, they were "fallen from grace."

Here's your take, if you'd penned it: ""Christ is become of no effect unto you - BECAUSE HE NEVER WAS, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace THAT YOU WERE NEVER IN TO START WITH."" However, the Bible reads a little different. "Christ HAS BECOME of no effect" - He once was, but He's not now. Your actions are such that you have FALLEN from grace. You didn't just stumble over a point or two. You need to really give us all a good, thorough analysis on Heb 6 and Gal 5 - not just blow em off like you have so far.

And you can add to those two: 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." These people in question ESCAPED the pollution of the world. How? By having a "knowledge of Jesus Christ" and "knowing the way of righteousness". So tell us two things: (1) Does this at least, at a minimum, describe a once-saved person and (2) if not, how in the world are they any better or worse off if they were totally depraved to start with?

John 15: "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

Every branch IN me! Not nominally in. Not a sucker - like a leech. But I-N. I won't comment much on it. As you say, it's pretty self-explanatory. You tell us what happens IF a branch I-N Christ does not abide therein.

I'm just working in reverse. If once-saved, always-saved topples, your "total depravity" and "miraculous conversions" will topple with it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."