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God can't do anything.

MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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5/18/2012 10:36:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God is a being with infinite power and infinite knowledge. He cannot, however, defy laws of logic, like making one plus one equal 3, or create breakfast so large even he could not eat it (since he is limitless, he would certainly be able to "eat" anything). I think what happened is, somewhere along the way, people stopped saying he just had infinite power and wisdom, and began phrasing it in a simpler manner- he can do anything. To them, what was the difference?

Now I see atheists using the paradox as an argument against God, and theists just saying "Well, I guess he really could do illogical things like that!" In my opinion he can't, but it doesn't diminish God in any way. It's just the wrong way to phrase it.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/18/2012 11:36:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Most theists actually concede that God cannot defy logic. Mestari actually explained it best: logic is defined by God's limitations.
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/18/2012 12:05:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
God can do anything, because he is all-powerful and omnipotent. However, he cannot do anything which even includes failure and things which is logically impossible, because what must be understood is that failure and absurdity is not an aspect of omnipotence.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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5/18/2012 12:26:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Technically, we don't know.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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5/18/2012 12:33:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If God is above logic than he could make the statement, "God cannot do everything", true.

But anyways, I think the image of God has just been distorted allot over the years by over-exulting Christians. I'm not even sure that he's omnipotent.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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5/18/2012 1:59:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 1:55:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God created logic, he should not be bound by it...
True that.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/18/2012 2:00:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It makes you think, if Theists think God is timeless because he created time. Then, with that logic, wouldn't God be illogical if he created logic?
OberHerr
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5/18/2012 4:59:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 1:55:03 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
If God created logic, he should not be bound by it...

This is basically my thoughts on it. I fail to see why he must a bid by rules of his creation.
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Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 5:05:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
most of the paradoxes are things which cannot exist. The stone paradox is false because there is no such stone because Allah is all powerful, so where does this question of stones he cannot lift come from?

If I tell you that Allah is eternal, where does the question making himself born come from? The questions are useless.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 5:09:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 2:00:01 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It makes you think, if Theists think God is timeless because he created time. Then, with that logic, wouldn't God be illogical if he created logic?

That's why it's not good to get into too deep philosophical discussions into what God created, his exact nature etc etc. I don't see anywhere in the bible where God said he created logic so it is not good to go to deep into abstract ideas of that which is not explained very clearly.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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5/18/2012 5:10:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 5:09:30 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 2:00:01 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It makes you think, if Theists think God is timeless because he created time. Then, with that logic, wouldn't God be illogical if he created logic?

That's why it's not good to get into too deep philosophical discussions into what God created, his exact nature etc etc. I don't see anywhere in the bible where God said he created logic so it is not good to go to deep into abstract ideas of that which is not explained very clearly.

It says basically that he made everything.....
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Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 5:11:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 5:10:37 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:09:30 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 2:00:01 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
It makes you think, if Theists think God is timeless because he created time. Then, with that logic, wouldn't God be illogical if he created logic?

That's why it's not good to get into too deep philosophical discussions into what God created, his exact nature etc etc. I don't see anywhere in the bible where God said he created logic so it is not good to go to deep into abstract ideas of that which is not explained very clearly.

It says basically that he made everything.....
1dustpelt
Posts: 1,970
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5/18/2012 5:14:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The title is wrong. It should be "God can't do everything", not "God can't do anything".
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Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/18/2012 5:20:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 12:05:06 PM, Clash wrote:
God can do anything, because he is all-powerful and omnipotent. However, he cannot do anything which even includes failure and things which is logically impossible, because what must be understood is that failure and absurdity is not an aspect of omnipotence.

"God can do anything...... However, he cannot do anything which even includes..."

Oh really, now. He can do anything, however, he cannot do X. Eh Johnny, we got a contradiction over here!
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 5:24:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 5:20:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"God can do anything...... However, he cannot do anything which even includes..."

Oh really, now. He can do anything, however, he cannot do X. Eh Johnny, we got a contradiction over here!

He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature.

"most of the paradoxes are things which cannot exist. The stone paradox is false because there is no such stone because Allah is all powerful, so where does this question of stones he cannot lift come from?

If I tell you that Allah is eternal, where does the question making himself born come from? The questions are useless."
Buckethead31594
Posts: 363
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5/18/2012 5:28:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ouch my brain. I'll just ask him about this dilemma when I see him. Too much thinking on my part.
"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher." - Socrates
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 5:24:11 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:20:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"God can do anything...... However, he cannot do anything which even includes..."

Oh really, now. He can do anything, however, he cannot do X. Eh Johnny, we got a contradiction over here!

He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature.

"most of the paradoxes are things which cannot exist. The stone paradox is false because there is no such stone because Allah is all powerful, so where does this question of stones he cannot lift come from?

If I tell you that Allah is eternal, where does the question making himself born come from? The questions are useless."

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 5:57:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...

No I don't, the things which contradict his nature do not even exist and are impossible. "Omnipotent means able to do anything"

Anything which contradicts his nature is not a thing, it doesn't exist, and is impossible.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 6:04:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 5:57:35 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...

No I don't, the things which contradict his nature do not even exist and are impossible. "Omnipotent means able to do anything"

Anything which contradicts his nature is not a thing, it doesn't exist, and is impossible.

Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible.

-I know a married bachelor
-a square with five sides
-meet me at the restaurant and mcdonalds at the same time
-A number that is odd and even

None of these statements carry any meaning, it is nonsense.
All these statements are simply words.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/18/2012 6:07:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:04:48 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:57:35 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...

No I don't, the things which contradict his nature do not even exist and are impossible. "Omnipotent means able to do anything"

Anything which contradicts his nature is not a thing, it doesn't exist, and is impossible.

Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible.

-I know a married bachelor
-a square with five sides
-meet me at the restaurant and mcdonalds at the same time
-A number that is odd and even

None of these statements carry any meaning, it is nonsense.
All these statements are simply words.

"Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible."3

Maybe God cannot do the impossible in your religion, but Christianity paints a different picture:

"For nothing is impossible with God." - Luke 1:37
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/18/2012 6:08:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:04:48 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:57:35 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...

No I don't, the things which contradict his nature do not even exist and are impossible. "Omnipotent means able to do anything"

Anything which contradicts his nature is not a thing, it doesn't exist, and is impossible.

Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible.

-I know a married bachelor
-a square with five sides
-meet me at the restaurant and mcdonalds at the same time
-A number that is odd and even

None of these statements carry any meaning, it is nonsense.
All these statements are simply words.

Just remember, there is a huge difference between:

(i) Anything

And

(ii)Anything but X
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/18/2012 6:11:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:07:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/18/2012 6:04:48 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:57:35 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...

No I don't, the things which contradict his nature do not even exist and are impossible. "Omnipotent means able to do anything"

Anything which contradicts his nature is not a thing, it doesn't exist, and is impossible.

Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible.

-I know a married bachelor
-a square with five sides
-meet me at the restaurant and mcdonalds at the same time
-A number that is odd and even

None of these statements carry any meaning, it is nonsense.
All these statements are simply words.

"Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible."3

Maybe God cannot do the impossible in your religion, but Christianity paints a different picture:

"For nothing is impossible with God." - Luke 1:37

I believe he's arguing that they aren't things. That verse says that no thing is impossible with God.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/18/2012 6:15:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:07:22 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

Maybe God cannot do the impossible in your religion, but Christianity paints a different picture:

"For nothing is impossible with God." - Luke 1:37

It is generally translated as "with God nothing shall be impossible" However, the Greek more literally translates as "for no word of God shall be powerless"
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 6:16:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There are two things we must understand. There are things beyond our reason and things against our reason.

--> Imagine God understanding what everyone is thinking in all their different languages and interpreting it all perfectly. We simply cannot fathom this, but it isn't impossible. This is BEYOND reason.

--> However something like Can God make himself born is simply contradictory. When something is contradictory it simply carries no meaning that can be applied to reality. This is AGAINST reason.

There are two things which I think Christians haven't understood about the nature of God. If God is eternal, he cannot be born again because that is a contradiction, a contradiction carries no meaning.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 6:17:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:16:03 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
There are two things we must understand. There are things beyond our reason and things against our reason.

--> Imagine God understanding what everyone is thinking in all their different languages and interpreting it all perfectly. We simply cannot fathom this, but it isn't impossible. This is BEYOND reason.

--> However something like Can God make himself born is simply contradictory. When something is contradictory it simply carries no meaning that can be applied to reality. This is AGAINST reason.

There are two things which I think Christians haven't understood about the nature of God. If God is eternal, he cannot be born again because that is a contradiction, a contradiction carries no meaning.

Didn't mean to type this, I take it back...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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5/18/2012 6:21:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:04:48 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:57:35 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/18/2012 5:33:33 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:

"He can do everything except that which contradicts his absolute nature."

Ok, so you admit he is not omnipotent...

No I don't, the things which contradict his nature do not even exist and are impossible. "Omnipotent means able to do anything"

Anything which contradicts his nature is not a thing, it doesn't exist, and is impossible.

Ideas that are self contradictory and make no sense cannot have any meaning and are impossible.

-I know a married bachelor
-a square with five sides
-meet me at the restaurant and mcdonalds at the same time
-A number that is odd and even

None of these statements carry any meaning, it is nonsense.
All these statements are simply words.

I could create a square circle if I started me own language along with a community and decided that squares have five sides. If we can change the definition of bachelor, why can't God? It's only impossible here because we've defined square as having certain properties and as soon as we go outside that language all meaningful communication breaks down.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 6:24:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the incarnation of God into Jesus (a human being) is a huge contradiction and is impossible.

==> God <==

--> All Powerful,
--> Eternal
--> Completely Self dependant

==> Human <==

--> Not all Powerful
--> Not Eternal
--> Dependant

But what will the regular response of Christians be? Omnipotence, God can do all things! Which is actually the wrong answer because a contradiction is not a thing, it is meaningless, a bunch of words, cannot be applied to reality, impossible, useless etc etc.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/18/2012 6:34:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/18/2012 6:21:07 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:

I could create a square circle if I started me own language along with a community and decided that squares have five sides.

--> Sure you can define a square to be five sides because then you wouldn't have a contradiction.

==> Example 1<==
Square- a shape with five sides
You have square with four sides. CONTRADICTION!

==> Example 2 <==
Square- a shape with 4 sides
You have a square with five sides. CONTRADICTION!

If we can change the definition of bachelor, why can't God?
It's only impossible here because we've defined square as having certain : : properties and as soon as we go outside that language all meaningful communication breaks down.

--> Sure I agree with you (last two lines) but I don't understand your points. I'm simply saying that God is capable of anything, some are not "things". You can play word games all you want but what is meaningless and impossible cannot exist in reality.