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Atheists and the multiverse

Rational_Thinker9119
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5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).
ScottyDouglas
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5/20/2012 2:33:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).

I do not think about it in universes but dimensions. We know we are in a three dimensional world physically. Science claims there are ten dimensions in the universe.

This fact alone gives heed that we are outside other dimensions within our own universe and therefore our knowledge is limited. That things within this earth and outside also exist outside those three dimensions we are confined. We are actually outside those three dimensions but our mind and body is not our spirit is.
TheAsylum
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/20/2012 2:44:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 2:33:09 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).

I do not think about it in universes but dimensions. We know we are in a three dimensional world physically. Science claims there are ten dimensions in the universe.

This fact alone gives heed that we are outside other dimensions within our own universe and therefore our knowledge is limited. That things within this earth and outside also exist outside those three dimensions we are confined. We are actually outside those three dimensions but our mind and body is not our spirit is.

"Science claims there are ten dimensions in the universe" is not true. You mean, certain proponents of M-Theory/ String Theory propose that there are 11 dimensions in total.

Also, I certainly do not believe in "spirits". This thread is about the multiverse...
cbrhawk1
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5/20/2012 2:50:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm glad that at least one atheist is consistent on this issue and how String Theory and M Theory are not tested scientific theories.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Kinesis
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5/20/2012 3:21:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have absolutely no idea if multiverse theory is plausible (and nor does anyone else on this website). The only point I would make is that 0 and infinity are both the simplest number of anything because to take any finite number of anything begs the question of why that particular finite number of things exists. We know the answer isn't 0 universes, so infinity universes is the next simplest answer.
cbrhawk1
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5/20/2012 3:22:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe in a single Universe with God existing at the birth of causality. I don't believe in an oscillating universe, just a single bang with an apparently infinite expansion.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/20/2012 3:25:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 3:21:34 AM, Kinesis wrote:
I have absolutely no idea if multiverse theory is plausible (and nor does anyone else on this website). The only point I would make is that 0 and infinity are both the simplest number of anything because to take any finite number of anything begs the question of why that particular finite number of things exists. We know the answer isn't 0 universes, so infinity universes is the next simplest answer.

Two questions:

(i) How do you equate infinity with simplicity?

(ii) How could there be an infinite number of things, couldn't you always add one more?
Kinesis
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5/20/2012 3:34:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 3:25:15 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Two questions:

(i) How do you equate infinity with simplicity?

Because any particular finite number of things begs an explanation of why that particular number of finite things exists. For example, it is simpler to postulate that a particular particle has infinite velocity than that it has a velocity of 309 million k/s. The finite quantity cries out for an explanation of why that particular number and not another.

(ii) How could there be an infinite number of things, couldn't you always add one more?

Yes.
tvellalott
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5/20/2012 3:50:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I came up with my little take on the Multiverse on Friday night actually.

I call it the multi-multiverse theory. I hope I'm not subconsciously ripping anyone off.

Basically, every single possible origin of the Universe that could possibly happen has happened. Then, within every possible origin of every Universe, every possible fractional change in any possible variable causes parallel Universes. We happen to live in this line of events, which is being changed by my very recognition of it. There is no 'infinite' because of the limitations of possibility.

I suppose some smarty pants is going to ask for my definition of 'possible'. I of course mean logically possible. Anything that is objectively logically impossible cannot possibly happen. While I have faith in the principles of logic, I recognise my own limited understanding of them, lol. I feel like there must be some objective law but I have my doubts about what my fellow man would have me believe. I have faith in Science, but it's jaded because it has that annnoying 'man' variable in it. Hopefully we can get computers to calculate things like how to run a optimal society without man's interference.

That's enough ranting...
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JaxsonRaine
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5/20/2012 3:53:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 3:34:28 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/20/2012 3:25:15 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Two questions:

(i) How do you equate infinity with simplicity?

Because any particular finite number of things begs an explanation of why that particular number of finite things exists. For example, it is simpler to postulate that a particular particle has infinite velocity than that it has a velocity of 309 million k/s. The finite quantity cries out for an explanation of why that particular number and not another.

(ii) How could there be an infinite number of things, couldn't you always add one more?

Yes.

I saw an apple yesterday, does that mean it is more likely that there are an infinite number of apples than a finite number?

If you can always add one more, then there can't be an infinite number.

There isn't a single thing that we have discovered that comes close to being 'infinite', so I would consider it much more unlikely for something to be infinite than finite.
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tvellalott
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5/20/2012 3:54:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Possible: Objectively capable of happening.
That's because I should probably offer a definition without the word possible in it. o.O;
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cbrhawk1
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5/20/2012 3:54:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Two questions:

(i) How do you equate infinity with simplicity?

(ii) How could there be an infinite number of things, couldn't you always add one more?

0 and infinity are both at opposite poles of the number circle. You have 0 at the bottom, infinity at the top point. The only way "infinity + 1" makes sense is if you are using infinity as a base. That does not happen in the Universe, so "infinity + 1" is absolutely meaningless just as 0 + 1 is meaningless if you are using infinity as the base.

So, with the mechanisms of this universe, unless you can find anything that uses infinity as a base, infinity + 1 does not exist.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Stephen_Hawkins
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5/20/2012 4:03:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 3:54:50 AM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Two questions:

(i) How do you equate infinity with simplicity?

(ii) How could there be an infinite number of things, couldn't you always add one more?

0 and infinity are both at opposite poles of the number circle. You have 0 at the bottom, infinity at the top point. The only way "infinity + 1" makes sense is if you are using infinity as a base. That does not happen in the Universe, so "infinity + 1" is absolutely meaningless just as 0 + 1 is meaningless if you are using infinity as the base.

So, with the mechanisms of this universe, unless you can find anything that uses infinity as a base, infinity + 1 does not exist.

Only when one presupposes that infinite numbers have the same properties of finite numbers which, when said clearly and succinctly, sounds ridiculous.
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cbrhawk1
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5/20/2012 4:13:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Only when one presupposes that infinite numbers have the same properties of finite numbers which, when said clearly and succinctly, sounds ridiculous.

Numbers themselves do not have properties. They are just methods of counting. Every measure of counting goes away from a neutral value (nearly always 0), and toward a base place changer (usually powers of 2, 8, 10, or 16).

I'm just saying that the method you are using is to count away from infinity. Just as any number can be expressed as 0 + X, any number using infinity as neutral can use it as infinity + x

Now, just because the arithmetic is the same, it doesn't mean the number makes any sense, and that's what infinity is. It's a number that, to s, makes no sense because we can't use it, and that's why saying "this object has infinite length" makes no sense whatsoever.

I think that was what you were kinda getting at, but it's a misunderstanding to say numbers have properties. Numbers are the values of properties.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Kinesis
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5/20/2012 4:23:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 3:53:47 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
I saw an apple yesterday, does that mean it is more likely that there are an infinite number of apples than a finite number?

No, because you have good evidence that there was only one apple. Occam's razor is a far cry from conclusive evidence. I'm just saying that an infinite plurality of universes is an intrinsically simpler hypothesis than a finite number of universes.

If you can always add one more, then there can't be an infinite number.

?

How does that follow? That's just a property of an infinite set, it isn't an argument against the possibility of an infinite set.

There isn't a single thing that we have discovered that comes close to being 'infinite', so I would consider it much more unlikely for something to be infinite than finite

lol, comes close to being infinite? Nothing comes close to being infinite; finity and infinity are completely separate properties. But I suppose you're right; there are plenty of infinities in abstraction (the length of pi, the number of odd integers etc.) but we haven't come across any concrete infinite things.
tvellalott
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5/20/2012 4:32:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The number of possible decimal places between any two whole numbers is infinite.
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Kinesis
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5/20/2012 4:35:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 4:32:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:
The number of possible decimal places between any two whole numbers is infinite.

Sure, but that isn't proof of the existence of infinities unless you also maintain that abstract concepts have their own independent reality. Which I find absurd.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/20/2012 4:53:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 4:32:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:
The number of possible decimal places between any two whole numbers is infinite.

This would be a potential infinity, not an actual infinity.
Wallstreetatheist
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5/20/2012 8:54:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 3:50:10 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Hopefully we can get computers to calculate things like how to run a optimal society without man's interference.

Society, by definition, is people related to each other through persistent interaction. Why do you think computers will be able to adequately judge human behavior, undocumented data trends, interaction in the market, human rights in conflict, the proper role of government, etc.?
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SeanMichael
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5/20/2012 9:28:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).

I am not an atheist, but like you I do not believe in the multiverse theory. There is no real strong evidence to back it up. One of the main reasons scientists blieve in this theory is because of the uniqueness of our own. So in order for them to make sense of such a complex and aparently designed universe is totheorise there is probably trillions or maybe an infinite other universes and this one we live in is inevitable.
Illegalcombatant
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5/20/2012 9:35:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).

I think this might be one of those things were genuine agnosticism is warranted.

No one can step outside of our universe for a looksy to confirm or deny other universes. What about universes before this one ? what about after ?

Could be 1 could be infinity could be some where between.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
popculturepooka
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5/20/2012 10:15:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 4:35:12 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/20/2012 4:32:02 AM, tvellalott wrote:
The number of possible decimal places between any two whole numbers is infinite.

Sure, but that isn't proof of the existence of infinities unless you also maintain that abstract concepts have their own independent reality. Which I find absurd.

You're a nominalist? :S
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Rational_Thinker9119
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5/20/2012 10:42:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 9:28:53 AM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).

I am not an atheist, but like you I do not believe in the multiverse theory. There is no real strong evidence to back it up. One of the main reasons scientists blieve in this theory is because of the uniqueness of our own. So in order for them to make sense of such a complex and aparently designed universe is totheorise there is probably trillions or maybe an infinite other universes and this one we live in is inevitable.

"I am not an atheist, but like you I do not believe in the multiverse theory. There is no real strong evidence to back it up."

Yet you believe in God, which has even less evidence to back it up....
cbrhawk1
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5/20/2012 10:47:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yet you believe in God, which has even less evidence to back it up....

People have observed God.

Whatever your thoughts are about the quality of those observations, no piece of evidence even hints at the possibility of multiple universes.

So, the least of the silly argument of multiverse by atheists is:

Observations of God with very little credibility
-compared to-
No observations or evidence for multiple universes.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
JaxsonRaine
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5/20/2012 10:53:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 10:42:58 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/20/2012 9:28:53 AM, SeanMichael wrote:
At 5/20/2012 2:07:23 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
As an Atheist, I don't really buy into the whole multiverse theory. I was just wondering how many Atheists out there believe in the multiverse, compared to Atheists who think it's likely that this is the only universe (like me).

I am not an atheist, but like you I do not believe in the multiverse theory. There is no real strong evidence to back it up. One of the main reasons scientists blieve in this theory is because of the uniqueness of our own. So in order for them to make sense of such a complex and aparently designed universe is totheorise there is probably trillions or maybe an infinite other universes and this one we live in is inevitable.

"I am not an atheist, but like you I do not believe in the multiverse theory. There is no real strong evidence to back it up."

Yet you believe in God, which has even less evidence to back it up....

Hypothetical situation.

You see God. (No, you are not insane, this actually happens)

Can that situation prove the existence of God to yourself? Yes.
Can that situation prove the existence of God to others? No.

So, it just depends on what you mean by evidence.

CBR is right though... there aren't billions of claimed experiences involving a multiverse.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/20/2012 11:01:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 10:47:00 AM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Yet you believe in God, which has even less evidence to back it up....

People have observed God.

Whatever your thoughts are about the quality of those observations, no piece of evidence even hints at the possibility of multiple universes.

Well we know of at least one universe existing, plus we have no evidence that supports that other universes can't exist, does that count ?

So, the least of the silly argument of multiverse by atheists is:

Observations of God with very little credibility
-compared to-
No observations or evidence for multiple universes.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12