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Is the Bible/Koran/Torah the word of God?

cbrhawk1
Posts: 588
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5/20/2012 11:08:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do not believe that God has ever told us to compile a list of letters and works by man, written by man, and not written to say i twas the "word of God." Same for the Old Testament. None of these people were writing or communicating under the direction of God.

Jesus told his disciples to "write own what I say." (I think those were his words) and, in one f the letters to the churches, Paul says that this is word "inspired" by God (not meaning God wrote it or God told him, but God acted as an inspiration).

Because of this, I don't think it's rational to say the Bible is the word of God. But, I'd like to read your thoughts on this if I may.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
cbrhawk1
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5/20/2012 11:09:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
What I meant by the Jesus part was that he told them to write down what he said, not to write down a set of rules and interpretations.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/20/2012 11:18:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 11:08:29 AM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I do not believe that God has ever told us to compile a list of letters and works by man, written by man, and not written to say i twas the "word of God." Same for the Old Testament. None of these people were writing or communicating under the direction of God.

Jesus told his disciples to "write own what I say." (I think those were his words) and, in one f the letters to the churches, Paul says that this is word "inspired" by God (not meaning God wrote it or God told him, but God acted as an inspiration).

Because of this, I don't think it's rational to say the Bible is the word of God. But, I'd like to read your thoughts on this if I may.

Back track a step, the question is if something claims to be the communication of God, an all powerful, all knowing, supernatural, wise, just, benevolent deity, how will we determine whether it is or not ?

We can all agree that literally anyone can put pen to paper and claim, yeah God said this, God said that, thus the claim in of its self counts for jack.

This is the problem with pre-suppositionlists, like evangelical christians. They are told here is a bible, its the word of God end of story. It's not like they are told, hey anyone can write anything down so you had better have a healthy amount of skeptism for any claim that says God said this, God wants that, God did this, God did that.

Our holy books/documents are the literal word of God, a message to humanity from the creator of the universe, those others books/documents ? well those are just man made works of fiction.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/20/2012 11:25:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm more or less a Barthian (as in I follow the lead of the theologian Karl Barth) in this regard.

"Three Fold Word of God
Karl Barth, who is by most estimates the pre-eminent theologian of the 20th century, and who has had a significant influence on me -- though I would say that other theologians, especially Jurgen Moltmann, have pushed me beyond being a simple Barthian -- but that's for another day.

Perhaps the most profoundly influential idea, for me, has been Barth's view of the three-fold Word of God.

1. Jesus Christ

Barth understanding of the Word of God, which is the revelation of God, begins with the affirmation that Jesus Christ is God's Word to humanity. Thus, the word is not first and foremost a verbal statement, rather it is a person. Barth looks to those passages that see Jesus as the Logos of God (John 1:1-14), and thus, Jesus becomes God's preeminent mediator of revelation (Mt. 11:27; Lk 11:9; Jn 14:1-10). Even as the author of Hebrews points out, God chose to revel himself finally and fully in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1-2; cf. I Cor. 1:30).

2. Scripture

Scripture becomes the Word of God when it bears witness to that preeminent Word, which is Jesus Christ (Jn 5:39). Barth makes the point that Scripture is the Word of God only derivatively. Scripture is the Word of God because God has chosen to speak in and through them.

When we speak of revelation we are faced with the divine act itself and as such, which, as we had to remember in the past, is the ground and the limit, the presupposition and the proviso of what may be said of the Bible and proclamation as the word of God. (Karl Barth, Dogmatics, in Hugh T. Kerr, ed., Readings in Christian Thought, 2nd ed., Abingdon Press, 1966, 286-87).

3. Proclamation.

Not only is Scripture the Word of God as it bears witness to Christ, but when preaching faithfully proclaims Jesus Christ, it too can become the Word of God. Preaching is Word of God in the sense that it takes Scripture and through the proclamation of that word, it bears witness to God's preeminent revelation in Jesus Christ. Scripture, however, also serves as the criterion upon which we may discern whether the preaching is truly God's word. We can see some examples of this form of the word of God described in places like Acts 4:31, where we find the church filled with the Spirit and speaking the "word of God with boldness." Then in Acts 6:7 we read that "the word of God continued to spread; the number of the disciples increased in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith." Then in Acts 15:36 we find Paul telling Barnabas that they should revisit the cities where they had "proclaimed the word of the Lord."

In Barth's description of the relationship between the three forms of the Word of God we can begin to see how preaching functions as Word of God.

The proclamation that speaks to us and is heard by us as God's Word promises the future revelation. By really attesting revelation the Bible is the Word of God, and by really promising revelation proclamation is the Word of God. But the promise in proclamation rests upon the attestation in the Bible the hope of future revelation upon faith in that which happened once for all. (Karl Barth in Kerr, Readings in Christian Thought, 28)

From Barth, I take this -- Word of God is an expansive term. But first and foremost it speaks of a person and only derivatively of a Book or Proclamation. "

http://www.bobcornwall.com...

So, in essence, he's that Jesus is the Word of God/special revelation and scripture is a witness to that fact -- it isn't directly the Word of God/special revelation himself.
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cbrhawk1
Posts: 588
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5/20/2012 1:36:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 11:25:01 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm more or less a Barthian (as in I follow the lead of the theologian Karl Barth) in this regard.

"Three Fold Word of God
Karl Barth, who is by most estimates the pre-eminent theologian of the 20th century, and who has had a significant influence on me -- though I would say that other theologians, especially Jurgen Moltmann, have pushed me beyond being a simple Barthian -- but that's for another day.

Perhaps the most profoundly influential idea, for me, has been Barth's view of the three-fold Word of God.


1. Jesus Christ

Barth understanding of the Word of God, which is the revelation of God, begins with the affirmation that Jesus Christ is God's Word to humanity. Thus, the word is not first and foremost a verbal statement, rather it is a person. Barth looks to those passages that see Jesus as the Logos of God (John 1:1-14), and thus, Jesus becomes God's preeminent mediator of revelation (Mt. 11:27; Lk 11:9; Jn 14:1-10). Even as the author of Hebrews points out, God chose to revel himself finally and fully in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ (Heb. 1:1-2; cf. I Cor. 1:30).

2. Scripture

Scripture becomes the Word of God when it bears witness to that preeminent Word, which is Jesus Christ (Jn 5:39). Barth makes the point that Scripture is the Word of God only derivatively. Scripture is the Word of God because God has chosen to speak in and through them.

When we speak of revelation we are faced with the divine act itself and as such, which, as we had to remember in the past, is the ground and the limit, the presupposition and the proviso of what may be said of the Bible and proclamation as the word of God. (Karl Barth, Dogmatics, in Hugh T. Kerr, ed., Readings in Christian Thought, 2nd ed., Abingdon Press, 1966, 286-87).


3. Proclamation.

Not only is Scripture the Word of God as it bears witness to Christ, but when preaching faithfully proclaims Jesus Christ, it too can become the Word of God. Preaching is Word of God in the sense that it takes Scripture and through the proclamation of that word, it bears witness to God's preeminent revelation in Jesus Christ. Scripture, however, also serves as the criterion upon which we may discern whether the preaching is truly God's word. We can see some examples of this form of the word of God described in places like Acts 4:31, where we find the church filled with the Spirit and speaking the "word of God with boldness." Then in Acts 6:7 we read that "the word of God continued to spread; the number of the disciples increased in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith." Then in Acts 15:36 we find Paul telling Barnabas that they should revisit the cities where they had "proclaimed the word of the Lord."

In Barth's description of the relationship between the three forms of the Word of God we can begin to see how preaching functions as Word of God.

The proclamation that speaks to us and is heard by us as God's Word promises the future revelation. By really attesting revelation the Bible is the Word of God, and by really promising revelation proclamation is the Word of God. But the promise in proclamation rests upon the attestation in the Bible the hope of future revelation upon faith in that which happened once for all. (Karl Barth in Kerr, Readings in Christian Thought, 28)

From Barth, I take this -- Word of God is an expansive term. But first and foremost it speaks of a person and only derivatively of a Book or Proclamation. "

http://www.bobcornwall.com...

So, in essence, he's that Jesus is the Word of God/special revelation and scripture is a witness to that fact -- it isn't directly the Word of God/special revelation himself.

This is a very well-written and acceptable expanation for the claim of the Bible being the Word of God, but I think stating that way is incredibly deceptive in that, to people, it means that te Bible is God's final word, therefore must be true, and therefore is law.

That's the kind of rigid thinking that gets Christians and those who rely too much on a compilation of works as fact because religions have been burned on their biblical interpretations more than once.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/20/2012 1:49:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 11:08:29 AM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
I do not believe that God has ever told us to compile a list of letters and works by man, written by man, and not written to say i twas the "word of God." Same for the Old Testament. None of these people were writing or communicating under the direction of God.

Jesus told his disciples to "write own what I say." (I think those were his words) and, in one f the letters to the churches, Paul says that this is word "inspired" by God (not meaning God wrote it or God told him, but God acted as an inspiration).

Because of this, I don't think it's rational to say the Bible is the word of God. But, I'd like to read your thoughts on this if I may.
So where does the Quran come into your argument?
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/20/2012 1:51:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 1:49:18 PM, Mirza wrote:

So where does the Quran come into your argument?

The Quran is essentially a parody of the Bible.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/20/2012 1:56:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/20/2012 1:51:45 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/20/2012 1:49:18 PM, Mirza wrote:

So where does the Quran come into your argument?

The Quran is essentially a parody of the Bible.
Fantastic red herring Ma'am.
cbrhawk1
Posts: 588
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5/20/2012 2:11:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So where does the Quran come into your argument?

I can only speak for the Bible, but, the basic arguments that the Canons were all compiled by man, using works written by man still stand.

But, i just want to get others' opinions on all religious works that are assumed by many to be the word of God/Gods.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman