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Pantheism

LeoL
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5/22/2012 10:09:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thoughts on pantheism?

http://plato.stanford.edu...

Pantheism, atheism, and deism are the three beliefs that I am considering...

Also...why isn't pantheism one of the choices for a religion in your profile? It's quite popular compared to some of the unheard of religions in the choices.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist. I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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phantom
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5/22/2012 11:15:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

Let me clarify. I personally haven't seen much evidence for it. However if people like you and cosmic believe in it, I'm sure there are some good arguments for it. I just haven't seen any. I don't find your post very compelling though. Or maybe I just don't understand pantheism. What is the justification in your assertion that the universe and God are the same?

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

I think it more likely because I believe in God but a personal God entails problems, such as the POE. Deism alleviates these problems. It is also just simply closest to my current beliefs.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/22/2012 11:30:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

I don't understand the introduction of the concept of God into the equation. Certainly the universe exists and certainly there are feelings of personal transcendence at points in one's experience, but where does the equivocation of the universe with the concept of God come in?

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

Argument from cosmological contingency. I agree it requires more evidence, though I think the evidence for it is more compelling. Though I suppose I'm still confused on what exactly pantheism is.
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LeoL
Posts: 109
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5/23/2012 12:00:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:30:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

I don't understand the introduction of the concept of God into the equation. Certainly the universe exists and certainly there are feelings of personal transcendence at points in one's experience, but where does the equivocation of the universe with the concept of God come in?

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

Argument from cosmological contingency. I agree it requires more evidence, though I think the evidence for it is more compelling. Though I suppose I'm still confused on what exactly pantheism is.

Pantheism is the belief that 'God' IS the laws in our world. Example: gravity. Richard Dawkins described pantheism as a "sexed-up" atheism. Pantheists don't believe in an intelligent designer, because pantheists don't believe anything was ever designed but rather that it was always in existence and always will be. For example, mathematics. 1+2=3 This equation always gave the answer of 3 in the infinite past, and will always give the answer of 3 in the infinite future. The reason pantheists believe that god is everything and that everything is god, is because pantheists generally believe everything is everything and this everything must be something divine, and call it god.

Search pantheism on YouTube, theres some interesting videos that explain pantheism quite well.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/23/2012 12:01:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:00:01 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:30:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

I don't understand the introduction of the concept of God into the equation. Certainly the universe exists and certainly there are feelings of personal transcendence at points in one's experience, but where does the equivocation of the universe with the concept of God come in?

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

Argument from cosmological contingency. I agree it requires more evidence, though I think the evidence for it is more compelling. Though I suppose I'm still confused on what exactly pantheism is.

Pantheism is the belief that 'God' IS the laws in our world. Example: gravity. Richard Dawkins described pantheism as a "sexed-up" atheism. Pantheists don't believe in an intelligent designer, because pantheists don't believe anything was ever designed but rather that it was always in existence and always will be. For example, mathematics. 1+2=3 This equation always gave the answer of 3 in the infinite past, and will always give the answer of 3 in the infinite future. The reason pantheists believe that god is everything and that everything is god, is because pantheists generally believe everything is everything and this everything must be something divine, and call it god.

Search pantheism on YouTube, theres some interesting videos that explain pantheism quite well.

I will but no offense, none of that made any fccking sense just now.
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/23/2012 12:07:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

Of course, when you consider the fact that there is good evidence that the universe isn't probably isn't eternal* it becomes a bit awkward to say that the universe/God created itself. (And even it was eternal contingency considerations start to pop up in any case.)

*http://arxiv.org...
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/23/2012 2:47:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:30:33 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Pantheism is merely a difference in language from both Atheism and Deism.

Deism is not at all comparable to Pantheism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
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bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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5/23/2012 2:49:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:00:01 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:30:57 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

I don't understand the introduction of the concept of God into the equation. Certainly the universe exists and certainly there are feelings of personal transcendence at points in one's experience, but where does the equivocation of the universe with the concept of God come in?

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

Argument from cosmological contingency. I agree it requires more evidence, though I think the evidence for it is more compelling. Though I suppose I'm still confused on what exactly pantheism is.

Pantheism is the belief that 'God' IS the laws in our world. Example: gravity. Richard Dawkins described pantheism as a "sexed-up" atheism. Pantheists don't believe in an intelligent designer, because pantheists don't believe anything was ever designed but rather that it was always in existence and always will be. For example, mathematics. 1+2=3 This equation always gave the answer of 3 in the infinite past, and will always give the answer of 3 in the infinite future. The reason pantheists believe that god is everything and that everything is god, is because pantheists generally believe everything is everything and this everything must be something divine, and call it god.

Search pantheism on YouTube, theres some interesting videos that explain pantheism quite well.

Thread closed.
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
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Ren
Posts: 7,102
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5/23/2012 5:04:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:07:44 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:08:00 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/22/2012 11:03:17 PM, phantom wrote:
I think cosmicAlfonso is a pantheist.

Likewise.

I don't see much evidence for it. But of the ones you mentioned, I think deism is the most likely.

Not much evidence for it? In Pantheism, the Universe is God. There's plenty of evidence that the Universe exists. Therefore Pantheism has very heavy evidence in its favor.

How is Deism more likely? It posits an extraneous component, it posits a transcendent being, a Creator God. I think that claim requires much more evidence than the Pantheist claim.

Of course, when you consider the fact that there is good evidence that the universe isn't probably isn't eternal* it becomes a bit awkward to say that the universe/God created itself. (And even it was eternal contingency considerations start to pop up in any case.)

*http://arxiv.org...

Pantheism rejects the notion of a creator god.
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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5/23/2012 7:45:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred,

How so? It appears to just be. Nothing divine or sacred about it. What exactly makes the universe any more than simply what exists? What makes it divine?

it is Unity,

Seems more like a poetic view than anything else.

it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it,

it is necessary,

See below.

and non-contingent.

Disagree with ya here. What leads you to believe there is no possible way for the universe not to have existed? Can't really find anything within the universe that's non-contingent and the universe is simply the summation of it's parts.....
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LeoL
Posts: 109
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5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.

I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/23/2012 11:03:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:07:44 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Of course, when you consider the fact that there is good evidence that the universe isn't probably isn't eternal* it becomes a bit awkward to say that the universe/God created itself. (And even it was eternal contingency considerations start to pop up in any case.)

Of course, when you consider the fact that there is no evidence for God whatsoever, it becomes a bit awkward to say that God created itself and was eternal. Those traits only apply to God because... well, people say so.

Logic is useful but not sufficient evidence. Arguments can be valid but not sound, which is why various Arguments for God are not too helpful. In the past I've pressed you for evidence of Jesus' Resurrection; you provided a verbose though articulate apologetic's explanation noting that "Witnesses didn't have a reason to lie" - as if we should believe them, as if witnesses actually existed, as if Holy Books (and religion in general) haven't been manipulated and distorted throughout the years. In other words, there's no evidence. There are just claims that some people think they saw Jesus float off into the sky like a helium balloon (I know I've repeated that, but it's my favorite visual of the Ascension lol).

I just wanted to point out that there's no more credibility to Christianity or monotheism in general than there is for Pantheism. Socialpinko asked, "How [is the universe divine]? It appears to just be. Nothing divine or sacred about it. What exactly makes the universe any more than simply what exists? What makes it divine?" Well divine means of or pertaining to god-like qualities... so it's kind of an odd question. Divinity only exists if God exists. So if you ascribe god-like qualities to the universe, you could argue that the universe is in fact divine.

Btw does anyone here remember back when it was almost meme-like on DDO to accuse me of being a Pantheist? :P
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Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?
LeoL
Posts: 109
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5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.
LeoL
Posts: 109
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5/23/2012 11:46:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

I don't believe someone could have caused it just because it raises more questions and doesn't answer any questions. This is why I am liking pantheism more and more because it lacks both the weaknesses of atheism and theism (theism has MANY more weaknesses). Obviously it's a pretty radical thought, but I have always thought similar to pantheist belief even before I knew about pantheism.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 11:54:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:46:51 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

I don't believe someone could have caused it just because it raises more questions and doesn't answer any questions. This is why I am liking pantheism more and more because it lacks both the weaknesses of atheism and theism (theism has MANY more weaknesses). Obviously it's a pretty radical thought, but I have always thought similar to pantheist belief even before I knew about pantheism.

What questions? Moreover, pantheism does not lack any less weakness then that of Atheism and Theism. Its belief that the universe has always existed and that it is divine, is enough to any person with a sound mind to deny it.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/23/2012 11:59:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

Except you are forcing a conclusion under the assumption that the universe "came" at all. Why assume that?
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 12:06:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:59:12 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

Except you are forcing a conclusion under the assumption that the universe "came" at all. Why assume that?

So what are you assuming? That it has always been there? The universe began to exist, therefore it must have come from something. If you however are not claiming that it came from nothing.
LeoL
Posts: 109
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5/23/2012 12:22:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 11:54:39 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:46:51 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

I don't believe someone could have caused it just because it raises more questions and doesn't answer any questions. This is why I am liking pantheism more and more because it lacks both the weaknesses of atheism and theism (theism has MANY more weaknesses). Obviously it's a pretty radical thought, but I have always thought similar to pantheist belief even before I knew about pantheism.

What questions? Moreover, pantheism does not lack any less weakness then that of Atheism and Theism. Its belief that the universe has always existed and that it is divine, is enough to any person with a sound mind to deny it.

What questions? A pretty big one: Who created God? Now, if someone created god, it is an infinite regress, which means that everything in the world must be creating infinitely, the other way. Which in essence is pantheism, a belief in no god, but the belief that everything is god.

In the other case, If god created the universe and God was always there, that raises more questions.. Why did god create the universe and how is it possible that god existed without being created? Theists brag that theism answers the question why, when it actually dos not at all.
Theists say that it is impossible for the universe to be here without being created, but say it is possible for god to be there without being created. Why?

And if it turns out that 'god' was not created and Theists are right, it is impossible that this god is intelligent. The simple reason for this is that if god wasn't created, but god created something, it means god knows about something (intelligence) in a place where there is nothing.

So if You think about it this way:

A) The law of conservation of energy is true
b) God must have been created
C) that god must have been created and so on..
D) the universes creator is infinite, thus the creations of the universe must be infinite
E) If everything creates something it acts as god, so everything is god, in order for the world to exist infinitely in both directions.

Lol, I guess I am officially a pantheist mixed with my own beliefs.

Does pantheism answer why? I don't know, But it makes a lot of sense.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 12:30:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:22:21 PM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:54:39 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:46:51 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

I don't believe someone could have caused it just because it raises more questions and doesn't answer any questions. This is why I am liking pantheism more and more because it lacks both the weaknesses of atheism and theism (theism has MANY more weaknesses). Obviously it's a pretty radical thought, but I have always thought similar to pantheist belief even before I knew about pantheism.

What questions? Moreover, pantheism does not lack any less weakness then that of Atheism and Theism. Its belief that the universe has always existed and that it is divine, is enough to any person with a sound mind to deny it.

What questions? A pretty big one: Who created God? Now, if someone created god, it is an infinite regress, which means that everything in the world must be creating infinitely, the other way. Which in essence is pantheism, a belief in no god, but the belief that everything is god.

In the other case, If god created the universe and God was always there, that raises more questions.. Why did god create the universe and how is it possible that god existed without being created? Theists brag that theism answers the question why, when it actually dos not at all.
Theists say that it is impossible for the universe to be here without being created, but say it is possible for god to be there without being created. Why?

And if it turns out that 'god' was not created and Theists are right, it is impossible that this god is intelligent. The simple reason for this is that if god wasn't created, but god created something, it means god knows about something (intelligence) in a place where there is nothing.

So if You think about it this way:

A) The law of conservation of energy is true
b) God must have been created
C) that god must have been created and so on..
D) the universes creator is infinite, thus the creations of the universe must be infinite
E) If everything creates something it acts as god, so everything is god, in order for the world to exist infinitely in both directions.

Lol, I guess I am officially a pantheist mixed with my own beliefs.

Does pantheism answer why? I don't know, But it makes a lot of sense.

To ask who created God is illogical and absurd, because God cannot be created or he wouldn't be God anymore. God is by his own definition uncreated
LeoL
Posts: 109
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5/23/2012 12:36:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:30:44 PM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 12:22:21 PM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:54:39 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:46:51 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

I don't believe someone could have caused it just because it raises more questions and doesn't answer any questions. This is why I am liking pantheism more and more because it lacks both the weaknesses of atheism and theism (theism has MANY more weaknesses). Obviously it's a pretty radical thought, but I have always thought similar to pantheist belief even before I knew about pantheism.

What questions? Moreover, pantheism does not lack any less weakness then that of Atheism and Theism. Its belief that the universe has always existed and that it is divine, is enough to any person with a sound mind to deny it.

What questions? A pretty big one: Who created God? Now, if someone created god, it is an infinite regress, which means that everything in the world must be creating infinitely, the other way. Which in essence is pantheism, a belief in no god, but the belief that everything is god.

In the other case, If god created the universe and God was always there, that raises more questions.. Why did god create the universe and how is it possible that god existed without being created? Theists brag that theism answers the question why, when it actually dos not at all.
Theists say that it is impossible for the universe to be here without being created, but say it is possible for god to be there without being created. Why?

And if it turns out that 'god' was not created and Theists are right, it is impossible that this god is intelligent. The simple reason for this is that if god wasn't created, but god created something, it means god knows about something (intelligence) in a place where there is nothing.

So if You think about it this way:

A) The law of conservation of energy is true
b) God must have been created
C) that god must have been created and so on..
D) the universes creator is infinite, thus the creations of the universe must be infinite
E) If everything creates something it acts as god, so everything is god, in order for the world to exist infinitely in both directions.

Lol, I guess I am officially a pantheist mixed with my own beliefs.

Does pantheism answer why? I don't know, But it makes a lot of sense.

To ask who created God is illogical and absurd, because God cannot be created or he wouldn't be God anymore. God is by his own definition uncreated

As I said before, if god wasn't created, he was created by nothing, which is what Theists argue against concerning the universe. So basically, Theists are contradicting themselves.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? -Douglas Adams
Clash
Posts: 220
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5/23/2012 12:44:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/23/2012 12:36:05 PM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 12:30:44 PM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 12:22:21 PM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:54:39 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:46:51 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:39:06 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:30:19 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 11:23:42 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 10:30:22 AM, LeoL wrote:
At 5/23/2012 5:51:31 AM, Clash wrote:
At 5/23/2012 2:52:07 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Pantheism: The Universe is divine, sacred, it is Unity, it is self-sustaining, it is the whole of existence, it is eternal, it is its own source, nothing caused it, it is necessary, and non-contingent.

Now I know why not so many people believe in Pantheism. To say that the universe is eternal and that nothing caused it, is just irrational. And that the Universe is divine? I have nothing more to say.


I don't believe it is irrational to believe that the universe is eternal, because If you understand the law of conservation of energy, it makes sense to believe the world has always been here and always will. Even if the universe was once 'created' there must have been something before because Energy is never destroyed nor formed, it just changes shape.

The more I think about it, the more I like pantheism.

Have you heard about the big bang theory?

Yes, but it's just hard to believe that something came out of nothing. If someone can explain that concept please explain. I understand the whole anti-matter thing, but isn't anti matter still something? Isnt it still some kind of energy?

I completely agree with you that it's hard to believe that something came out of nothing. In fact, to believe that the universe came out of nothing, is just complete nonsense. So in my opinion, someone must indeed have caused it.

I don't believe someone could have caused it just because it raises more questions and doesn't answer any questions. This is why I am liking pantheism more and more because it lacks both the weaknesses of atheism and theism (theism has MANY more weaknesses). Obviously it's a pretty radical thought, but I have always thought similar to pantheist belief even before I knew about pantheism.

What questions? Moreover, pantheism does not lack any less weakness then that of Atheism and Theism. Its belief that the universe has always existed and that it is divine, is enough to any person with a sound mind to deny it.

What questions? A pretty big one: Who created God? Now, if someone created god, it is an infinite regress, which means that everything in the world must be creating infinitely, the other way. Which in essence is pantheism, a belief in no god, but the belief that everything is god.

In the other case, If god created the universe and God was always there, that raises more questions.. Why did god create the universe and how is it possible that god existed without being created? Theists brag that theism answers the question why, when it actually dos not at all.
Theists say that it is impossible for the universe to be here without being created, but say it is possible for god to be there without being created. Why?

And if it turns out that 'god' was not created and Theists are right, it is impossible that this god is intelligent. The simple reason for this is that if god wasn't created, but god created something, it means god knows about something (intelligence) in a place where there is nothing.

So if You think about it this way:

A) The law of conservation of energy is true
b) God must have been created
C) that god must have been created and so on..
D) the universes creator is infinite, thus the creations of the universe must be infinite
E) If everything creates something it acts as god, so everything is god, in order for the world to exist infinitely in both directions.

Lol, I guess I am officially a pantheist mixed with my own beliefs.

Does pantheism answer why? I don't know, But it makes a lot of sense.

To ask who created God is illogical and absurd, because God cannot be created or he wouldn't be God anymore. God is by his own definition uncreated

As I said before, if god wasn't created, he was created by nothing, which is what Theists argue against concerning the universe. So basically, Theists are contradicting themselves.

Nothing cannot create anything. From nothing, nothing come. Moreover, God is not uncreated just because that's what he by his own definition is. He is also eternal. Thus, he doesn't need to be created. And indeed, it is logical to believe that uncaused/uncreated and eternal being must exist because of the absurdity of an infinite history of past causes/events.
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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5/23/2012 12:55:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is ridiculous, you guys are just playing at semantics now.

Pantheism absolutely holds if you place the definitions of "God" on the universe. I.e., infinite, necessary, omnipresent, allowance of free will, origin of logic, etc. So I laugh at this whole thing of "Pantheistic God" versus "Monotheistic God". On top of this, pandeism was always interesting for me. In that the uncaused, infinite God had to obey his own laws of logic (conservation of energy) and used his own omnipotence to convert all his own energy into the known universe. Hence why there is something because of nothing, and why we don't see an active God. That necessary "all-aware" agent created himself into the universe, and for that knows what has happened and will happen because he is the universe.

Damn. I really always liked that idea.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.