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Sam Harris Brilliant Speech

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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5/24/2012 10:20:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Bicker below on the three defenses of religion:

1) Religion is true
2) Religion is useful
3) Atheism is a religion and it's bad
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OberHerr
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5/24/2012 11:15:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So many strawmans.
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vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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5/24/2012 11:25:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's been a while since I watched this one - wouldn't hurt to watch it again though - his are always brilliant.

I've always wondered, though, how many people believe religion is a good thing for society but don't themselves buy into it. It seems like atheists almost always believe religion is a source of evil and theist believe it is a source of good.

Aren't there any theists who see that religion is a source of evil too great to be over looked? And aren't there any atheist who happen to think that the masses need religion to be upright and moral?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

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vbaculum
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5/24/2012 11:25:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 11:15:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So many strawmans.

So many that it would be pointless to name one?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Wallstreetatheist
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5/25/2012 12:09:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 11:15:52 PM, OberHerr wrote:
So many strawmans.

Example?
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Wallstreetatheist
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5/25/2012 12:16:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 11:25:06 PM, vbaculum wrote:
It's been a while since I watched this one - wouldn't hurt to watch it again though - his are always brilliant.

Agreed. He had one speech about The Moral Landscape at Cambridge that didn't go over very well; he must have had a rough day that day. But, his typical speeches are bursting with fresh insights, robust vocabulary, and raconteur-like development.

I've always wondered, though, how many people believe religion is a good thing for society but don't themselves buy into it. It seems like atheists almost always believe religion is a source of evil and theist believe it is a source of good.

That would be like finding someone whose life got destroyed solely by wine coolers.

Aren't there any theists who see that religion is a source of evil too great to be over looked? And aren't there any atheist who happen to think that the masses need religion to be upright and moral?

I think there would be a greater number of the former than the latter. Many religious people have strong doubts about religion, especially the institutions of organized religion. But, the primary hunch is most likely that the other religions are the evil ones. That said, I think that one's own religion can come under moral scrutiny by its adherents and by that person himself.
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ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/25/2012 12:24:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 11:25:06 PM, vbaculum wrote:
It's been a while since I watched this one - wouldn't hurt to watch it again though - his are always brilliant.

I've always wondered, though, how many people believe religion is a good thing for society but don't themselves buy into it. It seems like atheists almost always believe religion is a source of evil and theist believe it is a source of good.

Aren't there any theists who see that religion is a source of evil too great to be over looked? And aren't there any atheist who happen to think that the masses need religion to be upright and moral?

Religion is a source of good. Religion in any landscape gives character, virtue, a focus, teaches, and inspires. These are the positives from religion. What are the negatives. Dictating, Judging, false teaching, low character. I do not think the actual religion makes people corrupt. The power and the authority from God or the divine does. Many upon many are corrupt in every religion. The ones who are not corrupt and live by the practices they teach are the ones who help religion grow. It grows because so many ahve faith and believe. And the ones who are corrupt uses that power that the uncorrupt provide.
TheAsylum
caveat
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5/25/2012 12:30:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/24/2012 11:25:06 PM, vbaculum wrote:
And aren't there any atheist who happen to think that the masses need religion to be upright and moral?

Yes.
People are stupid. Anything to keep them from being even more stupid is welcome.
Unfortunately, religion works both sides of the fence.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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5/25/2012 1:08:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
To sum up:

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies... The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a "shining city on the hill" to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health.
[…]
Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical "cultures of life" that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. (Source: http://stupac2.blogspot.com.au...)
ScottyDouglas
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5/25/2012 2:46:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/25/2012 1:08:21 AM, Composer wrote:
To sum up:



In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies... The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a "shining city on the hill" to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health.
[…]
Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical "cultures of life" that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. (Source: http://stupac2.blogspot.com.au...)

Provide proof of this. Documented proof. The link you provided is not available. You are ranting with no base at all.
TheAsylum
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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5/25/2012 11:24:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Scotty, any levels of research on your part show this: look up any of the following:

literary levels
STD rates
teen pregnanacy rates
healthcare
education

or anything on thsoe lines and do a comparison among Europe Countries and America. It's usually equal, or America is doing worse.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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5/25/2012 12:32:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/25/2012 12:16:48 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 5/24/2012 11:25:06 PM, vbaculum wrote:
It's been a while since I watched this one - wouldn't hurt to watch it again though - his are always brilliant.

Agreed. He had one speech about The Moral Landscape at Cambridge that didn't go over very well; he must have had a rough day that day. But, his typical speeches are bursting with fresh insights, robust vocabulary, and raconteur-like development.

I've always wondered, though, how many people believe religion is a good thing for society but don't themselves buy into it. It seems like atheists almost always believe religion is a source of evil and theist believe it is a source of good.

That would be like finding someone whose life got destroyed solely by wine coolers.
Ha! Good one.

Aren't there any theists who see that religion is a source of evil too great to be over looked? And aren't there any atheist who happen to think that the masses need religion to be upright and moral?

I think there would be a greater number of the former than the latter. Many religious people have strong doubts about religion, especially the institutions of organized religion. But, the primary hunch is most likely that the other religions are the evil ones. That said, I think that one's own religion can come under moral scrutiny by its adherents and by that person himself.
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it