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Argument from Degrees of Excellence

THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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5/26/2012 8:38:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I had just recently found this, what do you think?

1. Everything has more or less of excellent characteristics such as goodness, truth, or nobility.

2. The words ‘more or less' always compare something to another thing.

Something which is less noble is being compared to something which is more noble.

3. Therefore, there must be something which is true, good, and noble to the highest degree.

You do not have an infinite amount of comparisons so, there must be a standard.

4. Something which is true, to the highest degree, is also in being, to the highest degree.

5. Therefore, there is something which has being to the highest degree.

6. Something that has a quality to the highest degree is the cause of this quality in everything else.

7. Therefore, there must be something which is the cause of being, truth, goodness, and nobility in everything else.

8. God is the only being capable of this causation.

9. Therefore, God exists.
CrazyPerson
Posts: 1,114
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5/26/2012 8:41:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/26/2012 8:38:27 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
I had just recently found this, what do you think?

1. Everything has more or less of excellent characteristics such as goodness, truth, or nobility.

2. The words ‘more or less' always compare something to another thing.

Something which is less noble is being compared to something which is more noble.

3. Therefore, there must be something which is true, good, and noble to the highest degree.

You do not have an infinite amount of comparisons so, there must be a standard.

4. Something which is true, to the highest degree, is also in being, to the highest degree.

5. Therefore, there is something which has being to the highest degree.

6. Something that has a quality to the highest degree is the cause of this quality in everything else.

7. Therefore, there must be something which is the cause of being, truth, goodness, and nobility in everything else.

8. God is the only being capable of this causation.

Either God or just regular plain old imagination.

9. Therefore, God exists.
But we try to pretend, you see, that the external world exists altogether independently of us.
- - - Watts
The moralist is the person who tells people that they ought to be unselfish, when they still feel like egos, and his efforts are always and invariably futile.
- - - Watts
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/26/2012 8:47:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/26/2012 8:38:27 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
I had just recently found this, what do you think?

1. Everything has more or less of excellent characteristics such as goodness, truth, or nobility.

2. The words ‘more or less' always compare something to another thing.

Something which is less noble is being compared to something which is more noble.

3. Therefore, there must be something which is true, good, and noble to the highest degree.

You do not have an infinite amount of comparisons so, there must be a standard.

4. Something which is true, to the highest degree, is also in being, to the highest degree.

5. Therefore, there is something which has being to the highest degree.

6. Something that has a quality to the highest degree is the cause of this quality in everything else.

7. Therefore, there must be something which is the cause of being, truth, goodness, and nobility in everything else.

8. God is the only being capable of this causation.

9. Therefore, God exists.

The argument assumes that something less great couldn't produce something more great, when this is false (loose pebbles can cause massive avalanches, dumb people can have sex and produce a genius ect).

It's also false that only God is capable of that causation, when natural selection is certainly capable of producing the properties which one could think of as being, truth, goodness, and nobility just like it's capable of producing what we would think of is lies, evil, and non-nobility because nature isn't perfect, and we aren't either.

Basically, the argument is an utter failure with all due respect.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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5/26/2012 9:05:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/26/2012 8:47:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/26/2012 8:38:27 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
I had just recently found this, what do you think?

1. Everything has more or less of excellent characteristics such as goodness, truth, or nobility.

2. The words ‘more or less' always compare something to another thing.

Something which is less noble is being compared to something which is more noble.

3. Therefore, there must be something which is true, good, and noble to the highest degree.

You do not have an infinite amount of comparisons so, there must be a standard.

4. Something which is true, to the highest degree, is also in being, to the highest degree.

5. Therefore, there is something which has being to the highest degree.

6. Something that has a quality to the highest degree is the cause of this quality in everything else.

7. Therefore, there must be something which is the cause of being, truth, goodness, and nobility in everything else.

8. God is the only being capable of this causation.

9. Therefore, God exists.

The argument assumes that something less great couldn't produce something more great, when this is false (loose pebbles can cause massive avalanches, dumb people can have sex and produce a genius ect).

If I am reading correctly, it is simply saying there must be one root standard of goodness, nobility, truth, etc. Something more great could choose to cause something less great, but, no where does it assert something less great could never cause something more great. This ascription of "greatness" are just dependent on the source of greatness.

It's also false that only God is capable of that causation, when natural selection is certainly capable of producing the properties which one could think of as being, truth, goodness, and nobility just like it's capable of producing what we would think of is lies, evil, and non-nobility because nature isn't perfect, and we aren't either.

How is natural selection capable of producing goodness?

Nature is not perfect. You are saying that nature is less than perfect. Where do you get the standard of 'perfect' from?
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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5/26/2012 9:06:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/26/2012 8:48:23 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
Are all of Aquinas' arguments based on the impossibility of infinity?

They are based upon the impossibility of an actual infinity.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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5/26/2012 9:11:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/26/2012 9:05:37 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 5/26/2012 8:47:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/26/2012 8:38:27 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
I had just recently found this, what do you think?

1. Everything has more or less of excellent characteristics such as goodness, truth, or nobility.

2. The words ‘more or less' always compare something to another thing.

Something which is less noble is being compared to something which is more noble.

3. Therefore, there must be something which is true, good, and noble to the highest degree.

You do not have an infinite amount of comparisons so, there must be a standard.

4. Something which is true, to the highest degree, is also in being, to the highest degree.

5. Therefore, there is something which has being to the highest degree.

6. Something that has a quality to the highest degree is the cause of this quality in everything else.

7. Therefore, there must be something which is the cause of being, truth, goodness, and nobility in everything else.

8. God is the only being capable of this causation.

9. Therefore, God exists.

The argument assumes that something less great couldn't produce something more great, when this is false (loose pebbles can cause massive avalanches, dumb people can have sex and produce a genius ect).

If I am reading correctly, it is simply saying there must be one root standard of goodness, nobility, truth, etc. Something more great could choose to cause something less great, but, no where does it assert something less great could never cause something more great. This ascription of "greatness" are just dependent on the source of greatness.


It's also false that only God is capable of that causation, when natural selection is certainly capable of producing the properties which one could think of as being, truth, goodness, and nobility just like it's capable of producing what we would think of is lies, evil, and non-nobility because nature isn't perfect, and we aren't either.

How is natural selection capable of producing goodness?

It produced our brains, the idea of "goodness" wouldn't exist without our brains existing to process that information, so it's clear that evolution is capable of producing goodness. Something can only be good, if it is good to someone with a brain. God is not required to explain any of this, so the argument you presented is just not good (no pun intended).

Nature is not perfect. You are saying that nature is less than perfect. Where do you get the standard of 'perfect' from?
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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5/26/2012 9:16:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/26/2012 9:11:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/26/2012 9:05:37 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 5/26/2012 8:47:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/26/2012 8:38:27 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
I had just recently found this, what do you think?

1. Everything has more or less of excellent characteristics such as goodness, truth, or nobility.

2. The words ‘more or less' always compare something to another thing.

Something which is less noble is being compared to something which is more noble.

3. Therefore, there must be something which is true, good, and noble to the highest degree.

You do not have an infinite amount of comparisons so, there must be a standard.

4. Something which is true, to the highest degree, is also in being, to the highest degree.

5. Therefore, there is something which has being to the highest degree.

6. Something that has a quality to the highest degree is the cause of this quality in everything else.

7. Therefore, there must be something which is the cause of being, truth, goodness, and nobility in everything else.

8. God is the only being capable of this causation.

9. Therefore, God exists.

The argument assumes that something less great couldn't produce something more great, when this is false (loose pebbles can cause massive avalanches, dumb people can have sex and produce a genius ect).

If I am reading correctly, it is simply saying there must be one root standard of goodness, nobility, truth, etc. Something more great could choose to cause something less great, but, no where does it assert something less great could never cause something more great. This ascription of "greatness" are just dependent on the source of greatness.


It's also false that only God is capable of that causation, when natural selection is certainly capable of producing the properties which one could think of as being, truth, goodness, and nobility just like it's capable of producing what we would think of is lies, evil, and non-nobility because nature isn't perfect, and we aren't either.

How is natural selection capable of producing goodness?

It produced our brains, the idea of "goodness" wouldn't exist without our brains existing to process that information, so it's clear that evolution is capable of producing goodness. Something can only be good, if it is good to someone with a brain. God is not required to explain any of this, so the argument you presented is just not good (no pun intended).

So you are saying something must be recognizably good in order to be good. So can you not be good to something which cannot recognize you are being good to it? Even a person with a brain could at some point not recognize you are being good to them, does this mean you are not being good to them?

What about something like perfection? Or knowledge? You are less perfect, less knowledgeable than someone else (no offense) who in turn is less perfect and knowledgeable than someone else. If an actual infinity cannot exist, then, there must be a single standard of perfection and knowledge.


Nature is not perfect. You are saying that nature is less than perfect. Where do you get the standard of 'perfect' from?