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Jesus's Murderers should be praised

twocupcakes
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5/27/2012 8:13:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God gets a lot of credit for killing Jesus so people can go to heaven. People praise Jesus for getting himself killed so people can go to heaven. Why don't the Jews/Romans who killed Jesus get credit for killing Jesus so we can go to heaven? If they did not crucify Jesus, he would never have died so people can go to heaven. I don't think that the Jews/Romans who killed Jesus get enough praise for their actions that saved humanity. They are just as responsible for saving humanity as God and Jesus. Why don't they get the praise they deserve?
Nosaj5q
Posts: 175
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5/27/2012 8:33:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
because they did so not in order to salvage humanity but to make an example of an irritating extremist protester type (which is what jesus was to most authority of the time)
Slimy yet satisfying"
twocupcakes
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5/27/2012 10:18:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:33:34 AM, Nosaj5q wrote:
because they did so not in order to salvage humanity but to make an example of an irritating extremist protester type (which is what jesus was to most authority of the time)

I see. Intent is important. They did not know that they were saving humanity by killing Jesus. But still, their actions were in accordance with the wishes of God. God wanted Jesus to be killed and so did Jesus. Even though they did not know exactly what would happen, they still followed the will of Jesus and God. I think it is important to follow God's will, even if we do not know why we do so. The decision to kill Jesus was one of the most important decisions for mankind, and they made the right decision and consequently helped save humanity. Even though they did not know what would happen, they still deserve some credit for the great act of killing Jesus and fufilling God's wishes (maybe not as much praise as God does, but still some).
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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5/27/2012 10:20:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus' death was Socratic.

He wasn't murdered by God. He was sent here to tell us what we needed to hear. God accepts that He sent Jesus here to be killed, because He knew that it was inevitable that foolish, arrogant humans would kill Him.
twocupcakes
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5/27/2012 10:35:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 10:20:37 AM, Ren wrote:
Jesus' death was Socratic.

He wasn't murdered by God. He was sent here to tell us what we needed to hear. God accepts that He sent Jesus here to be killed, because He knew that it was inevitable that foolish, arrogant humans would kill Him.

Okay. I see. God did not act to kill Jesus, he just sent him on a suicide mission ( kind of like preaching about women's rights, homosexual rights or drawing muhammed in the middle east nowadays). God just had no confidence that people would think Jesus was actually magical. And as soon as the humans murdered his son, God decided to give humans the reward of heaven. God planned on giving the gift of reward from the beggining.

Still, if Jesus murderers waited any longer to kill Jesus, more people would miss out on heaven. If Jesus died when he was around 60, that is 30 years of people missing out on heaven. Whether Jesus's murders new this before or not, they still gave a lot of people the chance of heaven that would have missed out of it if not for them.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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5/27/2012 10:54:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus was sent to preach about the coming of the new Kingdom of God. His death was known to the Father beforehand and to Him as well. It wasn't as though God wanted Jesus to be killed but more like he knew it was going to happen and accepted it.

Jesus came to preach that if you believe in God, repent for your sins and follow God's decrees (which was to believe in his Son Jesus and His Death) then you'd be saved. The crucifixion was a large part of this but not the sole intent.

The Romans don't get credit because they killed an innocent man who had committed no crime. We never praise the murderers only the martyrs.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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5/27/2012 10:58:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 10:35:05 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Okay. I see. God did not act to kill Jesus,

Lol, is there any scripture that says He did?

No, there isn't.

he just sent him on a suicide mission ( kind of like preaching about women's rights, homosexual rights or drawing muhammed in the middle east nowadays).

Errr... sure. Or being Black 40 years ago.

God just had no confidence that people would think Jesus was actually magical.

Magical?

Jesus was a gadfly, bro.

And as soon as the humans murdered his son, God decided to give humans the reward of heaven. God planned on giving the gift of reward from the beggining.

Lol.

Jesus gave people the capacity to make it into Heaven with what he taught us.

I'm obviously not sure, but my money is on that those who directly crucified Jesus are in Hell. For one reason or another.

Still, if Jesus murderers waited any longer to kill Jesus, more people would miss out on heaven.

Lol, what?

If Jesus died when he was around 60, that is 30 years of people missing out on heaven. Whether Jesus's murders new this before or not, they still gave a lot of people the chance of heaven that would have missed out of it if not for them.

Lol, I think I get how you're interpreting this.

Well, if you insist on seeing something preposterous, there's nothing I can do about that.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/27/2012 11:08:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:13:52 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
God gets a lot of credit for killing Jesus so people can go to heaven. People praise Jesus for getting himself killed so people can go to heaven. Why don't the Jews/Romans who killed Jesus get credit for killing Jesus so we can go to heaven? If they did not crucify Jesus, he would never have died so people can go to heaven. I don't think that the Jews/Romans who killed Jesus get enough praise for their actions that saved humanity. They are just as responsible for saving humanity as God and Jesus. Why don't they get the praise they deserve?

Do yourself a favor do not interpret the Bible or its meanings because truely you have no idea what you are talking about. Let someone who actually is filled with the Holy Ghost exsplain to you.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/27/2012 11:14:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 10:35:05 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 5/27/2012 10:20:37 AM, Ren wrote:
Jesus' death was Socratic.

He wasn't murdered by God. He was sent here to tell us what we needed to hear. God accepts that He sent Jesus here to be killed, because He knew that it was inevitable that foolish, arrogant humans would kill Him.

Okay. I see. God did not act to kill Jesus, he just sent him on a suicide mission ( kind of like preaching about women's rights, homosexual rights or drawing muhammed in the middle east nowadays). God just had no confidence that people would think Jesus was actually magical. And as soon as the humans murdered his son, God decided to give humans the reward of heaven. God planned on giving the gift of reward from the beggining.

Still, if Jesus murderers waited any longer to kill Jesus, more people would miss out on heaven. If Jesus died when he was around 60, that is 30 years of people missing out on heaven. Whether Jesus's murders new this before or not, they still gave a lot of people the chance of heaven that would have missed out of it if not for them.

I just turned 33. Feels like te years roll on and on. Ill be at old age before I know it and Im dead. This is just one reason why I know there is more. We as human beings are important we show this to ourselves much less to God. This life is to short not for there be a future one. I feel this everyday. Any child of God that dies are going to the future. Those who refuse the future will not find it. This is suicide or death by Jesus. Jesusu is God and God can not die. The flesh died and that is where you are stuck because you are all flaeh and do not use your spirit.
TheAsylum
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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5/27/2012 11:21:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 10:58:08 AM, Ren wrote:
At 5/27/2012 10:35:05 AM, twocupcakes wrote:



Lol, is there any scripture that says He did?

No, there isn't.
Okay. Some people tell me "God sacrificed his son for us". This makes it seem like God killed Jesus for us. I just go by what people tell me. This does make things tough because everyone interprets the Bible differently. My bad.


Errr... sure. Or being Black 40 years ago.

Yes exactly. Being black 40 years ago in the Bible belt of the USA was dangerous.
God just had no confidence that people would think Jesus was actually magical.



Jesus was a gadfly, bro.
Yes. Jesus was a gadfly, one who upsetts the status quo by presenting new ideas. This makes sense. Many people do not like when people question their beliefs and ask them to change the way they think.

Jesus gave people the capacity to make it into Heaven with what he taught us.

Okay. So people did not have the capacity to get into heaven before Jesus right? Was it Jesus's teachings that saved humanity or his death? This is what I am confused about. I thought it was his death.





If Jesus died when he was around 60, that is 30 years of people missing out on heaven. Whether Jesus's murders new this before or not, they still gave a lot of people the chance of heaven that would have missed out of it if not for them.




Okay this is what I am most confused about. Jesus dying "saved humanity" right? Or was it just Jesus being around that "saved humanity"? If it was just Jesus being around that "saved humanity" then i would agree that the murderers should not be praised. But, if it was Jesus's death that saved humanity then the murderers took a great part in saving the world.
twocupcakes
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5/27/2012 11:49:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago

I just turned 33. Feels like te years roll on and on. Ill be at old age before I know it and Im dead. This is just one reason why I know there is more. We as human beings are important we show this to ourselves much less to God. This life is to short not for there be a future one. I feel this everyday. Any child of God that dies are going to the future. Those who refuse the future will not find it. This is suicide or death by Jesus. Jesusu is God and God can not die. The flesh died and that is where you are stuck because you are all flaeh and do not use your spirit.

I understand that religion can be comforting and can be used as way to make death less scary. No one want the "ride to end". I can reconcile a deist position. I can even reconcile the idea that being "a good person" gets you a good afterlife. But isn't the theist position way to specific to be known. The general idea that only "believers of a certain theistic position" get heaven is inreconciliabe with morality and seems arbitrary. It seems selfish/arrogant to say that one deserves more than others just because a certain theistic belief.
twocupcakes
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5/27/2012 12:08:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 10:54:20 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Jesus was sent to preach about the coming of the new Kingdom of God. His death was known to the Father beforehand and to Him as well. It wasn't as though God wanted Jesus to be killed but more like he knew it was going to happen and accepted it.

Jesus came to preach that if you believe in God, repent for your sins and follow God's decrees (which was to believe in his Son Jesus and His Death) then you'd be saved. The crucifixion was a large part of this but not the sole intent.

The Romans don't get credit because they killed an innocent man who had committed no crime. We never praise the murderers only the martyrs.

Okay so God was finally ready to open up heaven so he sent Jesus on a dangerous adventure on earth to spread the word about the requirements to be admitted. The martyr analogy makes some sense. I was under the impression that Jesus dying "saved humanity". My bad. I thought that heaven was created only when Jesus died and that Jesus's death cleared everyones sins.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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5/27/2012 12:13:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let's say you go outside with a gun, and the intent to kill a total stranger. You see someone, and shoot.

You miss, and the bullet ends up hitting a fire hydrant, shooting up a spray that douses a fire that just started in an apartment.

Did you accidentally do something good? Sure(ignoring possible damage from the water, but you get the point).

Does that make you a good person? No. You are still a murderous person.

Intent matters.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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5/27/2012 12:17:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 11:21:10 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

Yes exactly. Being black 40 years ago in the Bible belt of the USA was dangerous.

LOL! That was a pretty good one. :P

Okay. So people did not have the capacity to get into heaven before Jesus right? Was it Jesus's teachings that saved humanity or his death? This is what I am confused about. I thought it was his death.

Well, if it was merely his death, why did it take 33 years?

Why not, like, 10 or something?

Okay this is what I am most confused about. Jesus dying "saved humanity" right? Or was it just Jesus being around that "saved humanity"? If it was just Jesus being around that "saved humanity" then i would agree that the murderers should not be praised. But, if it was Jesus's death that saved humanity then the murderers took a great part in saving the world.

John 3:16

"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Jesus was here because he had something to say. The fact that He died was inevitable, but I don't think it was essential to the purpose of Him being here.
twocupcakes
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5/27/2012 12:34:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 12:13:47 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Let's say you go outside with a gun, and the intent to kill a total stranger. You see someone, and shoot.

You miss, and the bullet ends up hitting a fire hydrant, shooting up a spray that douses a fire that just started in an apartment.

Did you accidentally do something good? Sure(ignoring possible damage from the water, but you get the point).

Does that make you a good person? No. You are still a murderous person.

Intent matters.

I understant. Intent is very important. In this example the person is not good. The difference between the examples is God. What if God wanted that person to die, and the person wanted to die? It was God's plan to have that person shot at.

Also, I don't think Intent is that important to God. For example, if someone decides, in the interest of being a good person, that they should not base morality decisions on an old book, but on reason and empathy, God would not be happy. If someone discriminates against homosexuals because the Bible says so, God will be happy. It seems God bases morality on whether people follow his will, not on Intent.

I would agree that the murders would not be worthy of praise if God did not exist or Jesus was not God's son.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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5/27/2012 12:43:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 12:34:20 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 5/27/2012 12:13:47 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Let's say you go outside with a gun, and the intent to kill a total stranger. You see someone, and shoot.

You miss, and the bullet ends up hitting a fire hydrant, shooting up a spray that douses a fire that just started in an apartment.

Did you accidentally do something good? Sure(ignoring possible damage from the water, but you get the point).

Does that make you a good person? No. You are still a murderous person.

Intent matters.

I understant. Intent is very important. In this example the person is not good. The difference between the examples is God. What if God wanted that person to die, and the person wanted to die? It was God's plan to have that person shot at.

You could say God knew that person would do it, but that person still had the same intent. That person still made the choice. In other words, God too that person's choice into account, but he didn't force the person to do it. Intent still matters.

Also, I don't think Intent is that important to God. For example, if someone decides, in the interest of being a good person, that they should not base morality decisions on an old book, but on reason and empathy, God would not be happy. If someone discriminates against homosexuals because the Bible says so, God will be happy. It seems God bases morality on whether people follow his will, not on Intent.

That's one view of God. Not every view. I believe in a God who is more, shall we say, sensible than that.

I would agree that the murders would not be worthy of praise if God did not exist or Jesus was not God's son.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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5/27/2012 12:48:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:33:34 AM, Nosaj5q wrote:
because they did so not in order to salvage humanity but to make an example of an irritating extremist protester type (which is what jesus was to most authority of the time)

Why judge people by the intent behind their actions when it is only the consequences of their actions that make any difference? If whoever killed Jesus had not done so, from a Christian POV mankind would never have been saved. Isn't that what really matters most?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/27/2012 4:31:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 11:49:12 AM, twocupcakes wrote:

I just turned 33. Feels like te years roll on and on. Ill be at old age before I know it and Im dead. This is just one reason why I know there is more. We as human beings are important we show this to ourselves much less to God. This life is to short not for there be a future one. I feel this everyday. Any child of God that dies are going to the future. Those who refuse the future will not find it. This is suicide or death by Jesus. Jesusu is God and God can not die. The flesh died and that is where you are stuck because you are all flaeh and do not use your spirit.

I understand that religion can be comforting and can be used as way to make death less scary. No one want the "ride to end". I can reconcile a deist position. I can even reconcile the idea that being "a good person" gets you a good afterlife. But isn't the theist position way to specific to be known. The general idea that only "believers of a certain theistic position" get heaven is inreconciliabe with morality and seems arbitrary. It seems selfish/arrogant to say that one deserves more than others just because a certain theistic belief.

It is not a thiest position that is were you are wrong. It is God's decision. Jesus made himself known and what you need to find him, that is one the person. I can not force you to choose anything and I will not. You have to realize that for youself. What I must do is talk about it through my faith and exsperience.
TheAsylum
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
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5/27/2012 7:31:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 12:17:21 PM, Ren wrote:
Jesus was here because he had something to say. The fact that He died was inevitable, but I don't think it was essential to the purpose of Him being here.

No,no,no. From the perspective of the bible, it was essential that Jesus died. He absorbed all of our sin. He took on our sin and made it his own so that we could be absolved of it.

"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Matthew 27 :45-46

Sin (death)is the separation of God. God hates sin so much that he turned from jesus while Jesus was taking on our sins.

Jesus' death was a very pivotal part of the story, from the perspective of the bible and christianity, at least, because otherwise God would not have let us enter heaven due to our sins. But you see, we are all born into sin, it is ingrained in us, and God loves us in spite of that. But his love was so strong that jesus conquered the sin.

Intent is important and the jews that killed jesus will not go to heaven because they didn't believe him. We're taught that we need to accept jesus and strive to be like him. he gets us into heaven.
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Ren
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5/27/2012 7:42:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:31:08 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 5/27/2012 12:17:21 PM, Ren wrote:
Jesus was here because he had something to say. The fact that He died was inevitable, but I don't think it was essential to the purpose of Him being here.

No,no,no. From the perspective of the bible, it was essential that Jesus died. He absorbed all of our sin. He took on our sin and made it his own so that we could be absolved of it.

"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Matthew 27 :45-46

Sin (death)is the separation of God. God hates sin so much that he turned from jesus while Jesus was taking on our sins.

Jesus' death was a very pivotal part of the story, from the perspective of the bible and christianity, at least, because otherwise God would not have let us enter heaven due to our sins. But you see, we are all born into sin, it is ingrained in us, and God loves us in spite of that. But his love was so strong that jesus conquered the sin.

Intent is important and the jews that killed jesus will not go to heaven because they didn't believe him. We're taught that we need to accept jesus and strive to be like him. he gets us into heaven.

Re: The Crucifixion

Indeed, there was a point during Matthew's and Mark (while Luke and John do not mention it) when Jesus cries out that He's being forsaken by God. However, it's actually a direct quote of Psalms 22:1:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

....

But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

As you can see, as a direct (and extremely relevant) quote of the 22nd Psalm, Jesus was not actually indicating that He had been forsaken. He was, instead, as he often was, being poetic.

There is no indication in the Bible that Jesus assumed any sin whatsoever:

From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").[d]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

You do realize, though, that the mere suggestion that it required Jesus' death for us to be forgiven (rather than redeemed), also suggests that God put everyone in Hell up until 2k years ago.

That's millions of years worth of people.
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/27/2012 7:44:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:42:31 PM, Ren wrote:
At 5/27/2012 7:31:08 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 5/27/2012 12:17:21 PM, Ren wrote:
Jesus was here because he had something to say. The fact that He died was inevitable, but I don't think it was essential to the purpose of Him being here.

No,no,no. From the perspective of the bible, it was essential that Jesus died. He absorbed all of our sin. He took on our sin and made it his own so that we could be absolved of it.

"From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'"

Matthew 27 :45-46

Sin (death)is the separation of God. God hates sin so much that he turned from jesus while Jesus was taking on our sins.

Jesus' death was a very pivotal part of the story, from the perspective of the bible and christianity, at least, because otherwise God would not have let us enter heaven due to our sins. But you see, we are all born into sin, it is ingrained in us, and God loves us in spite of that. But his love was so strong that jesus conquered the sin.

Intent is important and the jews that killed jesus will not go to heaven because they didn't believe him. We're taught that we need to accept jesus and strive to be like him. he gets us into heaven.

Re: The Crucifixion

Indeed, there was a point during Matthew's and Mark (while Luke and John do not mention it) when Jesus cries out that He's being forsaken by God. However, it's actually a direct quote of Psalms 22:1:


My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

....

But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

As you can see, as a direct (and extremely relevant) quote of the 22nd Psalm, Jesus was not actually indicating that He had been forsaken. He was, instead, as he often was, being poetic.

There is no indication in the Bible that Jesus assumed any sin whatsoever:

From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").[d]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

You do realize, though, that the mere suggestion that it required Jesus' death for us to be forgiven (rather than redeemed), also suggests that God put everyone in Hell up until 2k years ago.

That's millions of years worth of people.

Someone never went to sunday school. There is a thing called "Paradise" you know. Or was.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
Ren
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5/27/2012 7:46:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:44:36 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:

Someone never went to sunday school. There is a thing called "Paradise" you know. Or was.

Lolwat?

You talking about Eden?

Eden, as described in the Bible, was here. It may still be here. We were cast out, but it's not like it said thereafter, God razed it.

It was simply a lush garden that produced food and life without much human interference.

Now, we're too stupid to live synergistically with the planet, but we're still intent on doing things ourselves, so we farm like asssholes.
LibertyCampbell
Posts: 288
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5/27/2012 7:51:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:46:15 PM, Ren wrote:
At 5/27/2012 7:44:36 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:

Someone never went to sunday school. There is a thing called "Paradise" you know. Or was.

Lolwat?

You talking about Eden?

Eden, as described in the Bible, was here. It may still be here. We were cast out, but it's not like it said thereafter, God razed it.

It was simply a lush garden that produced food and life without much human interference.

Now, we're too stupid to live synergistically with the planet, but we're still intent on doing things ourselves, so we farm like asssholes.

No lol. My church taught that it was like a waiting area for Jesus or something. I don't know if thats true at all, I haven't read anything in the bible about it since I learned to think. However the Jews prior to Christ were promised access to Heaven, so something happened that wasn't hell.
"[Society] has no vested interest in continuing to exist." -RP
Ren
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5/27/2012 7:58:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:51:50 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:
At 5/27/2012 7:46:15 PM, Ren wrote:
At 5/27/2012 7:44:36 PM, LibertyCampbell wrote:

Someone never went to sunday school. There is a thing called "Paradise" you know. Or was.

Lolwat?

You talking about Eden?

Eden, as described in the Bible, was here. It may still be here. We were cast out, but it's not like it said thereafter, God razed it.

It was simply a lush garden that produced food and life without much human interference.

Now, we're too stupid to live synergistically with the planet, but we're still intent on doing things ourselves, so we farm like asssholes.

No lol. My church taught that it was like a waiting area for Jesus or something. I don't know if thats true at all, I haven't read anything in the bible about it since I learned to think. However the Jews prior to Christ were promised access to Heaven, so something happened that wasn't hell.

I consider church-borne teachings irrelevant.
Lickdafoot
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5/27/2012 8:20:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 7:42:31 PM, Ren wrote:
Re: The Crucifixion

Indeed, there was a point during Matthew's and Mark (while Luke and John do not mention it) when Jesus cries out that He's being forsaken by God. However, it's actually a direct quote of Psalms 22:1:


My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

....

But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

As you can see, as a direct (and extremely relevant) quote of the 22nd Psalm, Jesus was not actually indicating that He had been forsaken. He was, instead, as he often was, being poetic.

There is no indication in the Bible that Jesus assumed any sin whatsoever:

From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli,[c] lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").[d]

47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

You do realize, though, that the mere suggestion that it required Jesus' death for us to be forgiven (rather than redeemed), also suggests that God put everyone in Hell up until 2k years ago.

That's millions of years worth of people.

john 1:29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Romans 6:10 "The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

2 Corinthians 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us"

There are many other quotes that talk of the necessity of his death (he dies for his friends, etc.) IF you include the symbolism of his crucifixion, it points towards the idea that his death is very pivotal to our being saved. Sin & death are often referred to as being dark, which is what happened for hours leading up to his death. Why do you think the bible says he goes to the underworld temporarily when he dies? What do you posit he was doing down there, if he had no sin?

What is so significant about jesus' death and why did he talk about it so much if it was not a pivotal part of our salvation?

There is no reason to believe that those before the time of jesus went straight to hell or heaven, or even that anyone goes to heaven before the final judgement day. You realize that the only way to heaven is through jesus? it is NOT our acts that get us into heaven. It is the acceptance of jesus' love for us. The OT jews are still waiting for their messiah to come to take them to a higher plane of existence. They do not claim to be in heaven.
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Ren
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5/27/2012 8:47:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:20:42 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:

john 1:29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

This doesn't indicate that He assumed sin.

Romans 6:10 "The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

Amg, my favorite book. ^_^

Let's put that verse in context:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So, if Jesus assumed all the sins of the world just before He died, then everyone does, because that verse is actually instructing us to do the same.

Unto. What is this word?

1. To.
2. Until: a fast unto death.
3. By: a place unto itself, quite unlike its surroundings.

In other words, the only way for a person to be free of sin is to die, because as long as they live, they'll sin.

Jesus was free of the sin of the world that killed him when He died, and this was no longer possible once He resurrected. In this way, He conquered the sin that killed him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us"

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

That still doesn't indicate that Jesus assumed sin... perhaps, that He can serve as an analogy to sin, but not that He Himself assumed sin. Moreover, it is stressed that it was the message that Jesus brought, rather than His death in and of itself, that saves us. In this way, we're accepted by God through Jesus, as Jesus appeals on our behalf, rather than due to some base belief.

There are many other quotes that talk of the necessity of his death (he dies for his friends, etc.) IF you include the symbolism of his crucifixion, it points towards the idea that his death is very pivotal to our being saved. Sin & death are often referred to as being dark, which is what happened for hours leading up to his death. Why do you think the bible says he goes to the underworld temporarily when he dies? What do you posit he was doing down there, if he had no sin?

What is so significant about jesus' death and why did he talk about it so much if it was not a pivotal part of our salvation?

In my opinion, it was Jesus following through with his teachings.

There is no reason to believe that those before the time of jesus went straight to hell or heaven, or even that anyone goes to heaven before the final judgement day. You realize that the only way to heaven is through jesus? it is NOT our acts that get us into heaven. It is the acceptance of jesus' love for us. The OT jews are still waiting for their messiah to come to take them to a higher plane of existence. They do not claim to be in heaven.

I wonder how this belief came to be -- it has nothing to do with our acts.

Good people will be with God in Heaven, whether or not they "believe" in anything:

Romans 2:
9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

...

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person's praise is not from other people, but from God.
Lickdafoot
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5/27/2012 9:35:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:47:38 PM, Ren wrote:
I wonder how this belief came to be -- it has nothing to do with our acts.

Hmm, I suppose this is more or less one of the ideas that I've heard among christians rather than seen supported in the bible. I'd guess it has to do with a culmination of interpretations that have become common christian thought because of the symbolic nature of the bible. like fire & brimstone hell being taken at face value, jesus often said that he is the only way into heaven. I'll have to contemplate a bit on the rest of what you said and possibly get back to you later.
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cbrhawk1
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5/28/2012 10:09:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 8:13:52 AM, twocupcakes wrote:
God gets a lot of credit for killing Jesus so people can go to heaven. People praise Jesus for getting himself killed so people can go to heaven. Why don't the Jews/Romans who killed Jesus get credit for killing Jesus so we can go to heaven? If they did not crucify Jesus, he would never have died so people can go to heaven. I don't think that the Jews/Romans who killed Jesus get enough praise for their actions that saved humanity. They are just as responsible for saving humanity as God and Jesus. Why don't they get the praise they deserve?

Will respond to this first.

God did not kill Jesus. Jews killed Jesus. Jesus died as a result of his actions according to the plan of God which incorporated human decision making in it. Despite it being the plan of God, God did not act in chronological time to have this done.

Any way Jesus died would have been the surpreme sacrifice. The important thing about the death of Jesus was not the fact that he was killed, but the witnesses to his death who truly did see that Jesus was not of this word. These witnesses were able to write to the different churches and talk about their observations, as well as their years with Jesus and witnessing many things.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman