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Calvinism

stubs
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5/27/2012 11:44:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do agree with some of the 5 points of Calvinism. However there are a few questions I have about it and anyone who can answer it would be appreciated if you did. Total depravity was in response to the Arminianism point of free will. Total depravity says humans are all bad and they have no chance of choosing good or choosing God without some sort of intervention from heaven. To me, this seems to present the same problem that atheist often ask, "why didn't God create creatures that only loved him." The response obviously being because it wouldn't really be love if we didn't have the choice to reject him. With total depravity it seems we don't have a choice either. And if you hold to the point that we don't have free will, than why didn't God just create beings that only loved him?

My other question is how do people that think they are elect know they are elect. It seems to me the best you can do is speculate that you are elect. What if when you die you find out that you had not been one of the chosen elect?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/27/2012 11:57:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 11:44:30 PM, stubs wrote:
I do agree with some of the 5 points of Calvinism. However there are a few questions I have about it and anyone who can answer it would be appreciated if you did. Total depravity was in response to the Arminianism point of free will. Total depravity says humans are all bad and they have no chance of choosing good or choosing God without some sort of intervention from heaven. To me, this seems to present the same problem that atheist often ask, "why didn't God create creatures that only loved him." The response obviously being because it wouldn't really be love if we didn't have the choice to reject him. With total depravity it seems we don't have a choice either. And if you hold to the point that we don't have free will, than why didn't God just create beings that only loved him?

My other question is how do people that think they are elect know they are elect. It seems to me the best you can do is speculate that you are elect. What if when you die you find out that you had not been one of the chosen elect?

1. The elect are those that believe in Christ. You do have a choice. You can be a unrepentant sinner. Cause we all are sinners. Or you can be repentant and accept Christ. This is a choice. Even if God knows who the elect are, you make your own choice.
2. We all are depraved. But you choose to stay that way or to turn to Christ.

The theology of the faith is always up to debate. What is not is the way to find salvation and that is solely through faith and repentance in Jesus Christ.
TheAsylum
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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5/27/2012 11:57:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 11:44:30 PM, stubs wrote:
I do agree with some of the 5 points of Calvinism. However there are a few questions I have about it and anyone who can answer it would be appreciated if you did. Total depravity was in response to the Arminianism point of free will. Total depravity says humans are all bad and they have no chance of choosing good or choosing God without some sort of intervention from heaven. To me, this seems to present the same problem that atheist often ask, "why didn't God create creatures that only loved him." The response obviously being because it wouldn't really be love if we didn't have the choice to reject him. With total depravity it seems we don't have a choice either. And if you hold to the point that we don't have free will, than why didn't God just create beings that only loved him?

Being a long time since I went into Calvinism, so fair warning I am going off my memory here. It's not that they deny free will per se, it's that they deny that some one can "choose" God, Why ? cause of total depravity. In short mankind is just to evil to choose God.

Not only that, God has to choose you, if he doesn't, you will never, ever, ever, ever,ever choose God. No invitations from God to accept in Calvinism.


My other question is how do people that think they are elect know they are elect. It seems to me the best you can do is speculate that you are elect. What if when you die you find out that you had not been one of the chosen elect?

Bugger if I know, I recall one person saying, well they know they are the elect cause they believe in total depravity and thus no one can choose God thus this is proof they are the elect. Suffice to say I am not impressed by that answer, I hope it isn't the best Calvinistic repose out there, I am assuming it isn't.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
stubs
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5/28/2012 12:01:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 11:57:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

1. The elect are those that believe in Christ. You do have a choice. You can be a unrepentant sinner. Cause we all are sinners. Or you can be repentant and accept Christ. This is a choice. Even if God knows who the elect are, you make your own choice.

John Calvin didn't hold to the view of free will though. So if you say you do have a choice than it's not a Calvinistic response right?

2. We all are depraved. But you choose to stay that way or to turn to Christ.

The theology of the faith is always up to debate. What is not is the way to find salvation and that is solely through faith and repentance in Jesus Christ.

True
ScottyDouglas
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5/28/2012 12:14:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 12:01:00 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/27/2012 11:57:38 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

1. The elect are those that believe in Christ. You do have a choice. You can be a unrepentant sinner. Cause we all are sinners. Or you can be repentant and accept Christ. This is a choice. Even if God knows who the elect are, you make your own choice.

John Calvin didn't hold to the view of free will though. So if you say you do have a choice than it's not a Calvinistic response right?

2. We all are depraved. But you choose to stay that way or to turn to Christ.

The theology of the faith is always up to debate. What is not is the way to find salvation and that is solely through faith and repentance in Jesus Christ.

True

It is part true. You are depraved. Though I am depraved I chose Christ. He could've chose me and i didnt have that choice. But if He did with me willingly choosing him myself then that misrepersents Jesus. God said He gives us choice and I believe him. I made the decision to walk down the isle to salvation. I choose to repent daily. Those are my choices. Now on the other side we are fully of depravity. We need the Holy Ghost to move us and inspire us. I think the Holy Ghost does convict you to salvation before you make that choice. But we all recieve that, it is your choice to accept it or deny it. I dont fall under any doctrine. I read the Bible and pray for understanding. I believe many people will recieve many different interpretations of the Bible. This is important because the Bible is told fold, three fold, and four fold. Usually one man recieves one interpretation when there could be four. You need other interpretations to recieve the whole truth. Though this is hard because of mnay false teachers. You have the Ghost I feel it and throught the Ghost decide what is true.
TheAsylum
stubs
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5/28/2012 12:20:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 12:14:25 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

It is part true. You are depraved. Though I am depraved I chose Christ.

But total depravity says that we cannot choose God. You can't be depraved and choose God.
annanicole
Posts: 19,791
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5/28/2012 12:40:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 12:20:33 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 12:14:25 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

It is part true. You are depraved. Though I am depraved I chose Christ.

But total depravity says that we cannot choose God. You can't be depraved and choose God.

^ ^ ^ ^ That is correct. Absolutely. If the total hereditary depravity of Calvinism be true, then one will obviously be too rotten, ruined, and recreant to voluntarily choose God.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ScottyDouglas
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5/28/2012 12:43:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 12:20:33 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 12:14:25 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

It is part true. You are depraved. Though I am depraved I chose Christ.

But total depravity says that we cannot choose God. You can't be depraved and choose God.

If you was totally depraved then you would have no honor, virtue, or law. This world would literally be hell on earth of we all where toatally depraved. We are depraved but to a point. We always have choice.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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5/28/2012 12:46:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 12:20:33 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 12:14:25 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

It is part true. You are depraved. Though I am depraved I chose Christ.

But total depravity says that we cannot choose God. You can't be depraved and choose God.

To have total depravity then the Holy Ghost must leave this earth. The only reason satan does not run wide open(all totally depraved)is because the Holy Ghost is subduing him.
TheAsylum
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/27/2012 11:44:30 PM, stubs wrote:
I do agree with some of the 5 points of Calvinism. However there are a few questions I have about it and anyone who can answer it would be appreciated if you did. Total depravity was in response to the Arminianism point of free will. Total depravity says humans are all bad and they have no chance of choosing good or choosing God without some sort of intervention from heaven. To me, this seems to present the same problem that atheist often ask, "why didn't God create creatures that only loved him." The response obviously being because it wouldn't really be love if we didn't have the choice to reject him. With total depravity it seems we don't have a choice either. And if you hold to the point that we don't have free will, than why didn't God just create beings that only loved him?

My other question is how do people that think they are elect know they are elect. It seems to me the best you can do is speculate that you are elect. What if when you die you find out that you had not been one of the chosen elect?

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:

Luke 19:11-26
The Parable of the Ten Minas 11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,' he said, ‘until I come back.'

14 "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don't want this man to be our king.'

15 "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16 "The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17 "‘Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
18 "The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19 "His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.'

20 "Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
22 "His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24 "Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25 "‘Sir,' they said, ‘he already has ten!'

26 "He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.
The Cross.. the Cross.
annanicole
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5/28/2012 8:30:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"We are depraved but to a point. We always have choice."

Then that would be partially depravity - which, I guess, would entail partialy non-depravity.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/28/2012 8:37:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:


I'm sorry I don't see what question you are trying to answer. If you have the time could you explain it a little clearer to me. Thank you.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/29/2012 9:59:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 8:37:25 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:


I'm sorry I don't see what question you are trying to answer. If you have the time could you explain it a little clearer to me. Thank you.

The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not..'

But Election is solely a means of saving others; We must forgive others as we have been forgiven..

Salvation must be worked out, if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off, our tresspasses are forgiven only as we forgive those who tresspass against us, the measure we use will be used against us etc etc..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 10:29:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 9:59:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/28/2012 8:37:25 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:


I'm sorry I don't see what question you are trying to answer. If you have the time could you explain it a little clearer to me. Thank you.

The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not..'

But Election is solely a means of saving others; We must forgive others as we have been forgiven..

Salvation must be worked out, if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off, our tresspasses are forgiven only as we forgive those who tresspass against us, the measure we use will be used against us etc etc..

How does this do anything to answer the very objection that you brought up?...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/29/2012 10:35:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 10:29:33 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 9:59:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/28/2012 8:37:25 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:


I'm sorry I don't see what question you are trying to answer. If you have the time could you explain it a little clearer to me. Thank you.

The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not..'

But Election is solely a means of saving others; We must forgive others as we have been forgiven..

Salvation must be worked out, if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off, our tresspasses are forgiven only as we forgive those who tresspass against us, the measure we use will be used against us etc etc..

How does this do anything to answer the very objection that you brought up?...

Which objection? be more explicit..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 10:37:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 10:35:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/29/2012 10:29:33 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 9:59:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/28/2012 8:37:25 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:


I'm sorry I don't see what question you are trying to answer. If you have the time could you explain it a little clearer to me. Thank you.

The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not..'

But Election is solely a means of saving others; We must forgive others as we have been forgiven..

Salvation must be worked out, if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off, our tresspasses are forgiven only as we forgive those who tresspass against us, the measure we use will be used against us etc etc..

How does this do anything to answer the very objection that you brought up?...

Which objection? be more explicit..

Your very first sentence. :S

"The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not.."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/29/2012 1:49:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Our biggest mistake, is thinking the universe and God revolve around us; That God for some reason, is not as holy, and not as just, as he is described in the word.

It doesn't matter what coulda, woulda, shoulda, happen; or why God didn't just make everyone perfect and eliminate all evil. All that matters is: We are sinful and he is Holy; He does things based on his purpose and will; He is omniscient- therefore, nothing is out of his knowledge and understanding.

He established the Law: Be peferct and live.

we found out, this wasn't meant for us. The greatest commandments eliminate all hope. On top of the hopeless requirements, he really lays into us, by making sure we know how hopelessly lost we are.

(Romans 3:9-20, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9)

Romans 3 makes sure we all know(jew&gentile) that none of us are righteous. We all are wicked and selfish, not one of us seeks God. Then in Mark 7, for those who still believe they can be righteous from the external works, and those who blame satan, food, or drink for their depravity- It is laid out by Christ that we are all wicked from the inside, and that from within ourselves comes sin. Finally, for those who don't get the picture, in Jeremiah, our hearts are declared the most wicked part of us, and that it is "beyond cure"!

I don't know how people are still on their high horses, claiming that they earn or maintain there salvation. God is absolute and reserves the right to Chose his elect based on his reasons and purposed; his mercy and compassion(romans 9). The Law was to break his elect, and drive them to Christ.

You may ask, well what is someone decides not to follow Christ?

1 John will say:

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 describe very plainly, that God predestines his elect to sonship. Not by human "effort or desire". Since our the only means of making a decision have been stripped, how can anyone continue to say that we choose God, or that we choose to stay???

Christ is the purpose of our world. Christ is the story of the Bible.

Free-will to choose God is a lie. Christ is the only way, and he's done it all..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rusty
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5/29/2012 1:51:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 1:49:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Our biggest mistake, is thinking the universe and God revolve around us; That God for some reason, is not as holy, and not as just, as he is described in the word.

It doesn't matter what coulda, woulda, shoulda, happen; or why God didn't just make everyone perfect and eliminate all evil. All that matters is: We are sinful and he is Holy; He does things based on his purpose and will; He is omniscient- therefore, nothing is out of his knowledge and understanding.


He established the Law: Be peferct and live.

we found out, this wasn't meant for us. The greatest commandments eliminate all hope. On top of the hopeless requirements, he really lays into us, by making sure we know how hopelessly lost we are.

(Romans 3:9-20, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9)

Romans 3 makes sure we all know(jew&gentile) that none of us are righteous. We all are wicked and selfish, not one of us seeks God. Then in Mark 7, for those who still believe they can be righteous from the external works, and those who blame satan, food, or drink for their depravity- It is laid out by Christ that we are all wicked from the inside, and that from within ourselves comes sin. Finally, for those who don't get the picture, in Jeremiah, our hearts are declared the most wicked part of us, and that it is "beyond cure"!

I don't know how people are still on their high horses, claiming that they earn or maintain there salvation. God is absolute and reserves the right to Chose his elect based on his reasons and purposed; his mercy and compassion(romans 9). The Law was to break his elect, and drive them to Christ.

You may ask, well what is someone decides not to follow Christ?

1 John will say:

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 describe very plainly, that God predestines his elect to sonship. Not by human "effort or desire". Since our the only means of making a decision have been stripped, how can anyone continue to say that we choose God, or that we choose to stay???

Christ is the purpose of our world. Christ is the story of the Bible.

Free-will to choose God is a lie. Christ is the only way, and he's done it all..

Do you know that you're elect?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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5/29/2012 2:12:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 1:51:44 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 1:49:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Our biggest mistake, is thinking the universe and God revolve around us; That God for some reason, is not as holy, and not as just, as he is described in the word.

It doesn't matter what coulda, woulda, shoulda, happen; or why God didn't just make everyone perfect and eliminate all evil. All that matters is: We are sinful and he is Holy; He does things based on his purpose and will; He is omniscient- therefore, nothing is out of his knowledge and understanding.


He established the Law: Be peferct and live.

we found out, this wasn't meant for us. The greatest commandments eliminate all hope. On top of the hopeless requirements, he really lays into us, by making sure we know how hopelessly lost we are.

(Romans 3:9-20, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9)

Romans 3 makes sure we all know(jew&gentile) that none of us are righteous. We all are wicked and selfish, not one of us seeks God. Then in Mark 7, for those who still believe they can be righteous from the external works, and those who blame satan, food, or drink for their depravity- It is laid out by Christ that we are all wicked from the inside, and that from within ourselves comes sin. Finally, for those who don't get the picture, in Jeremiah, our hearts are declared the most wicked part of us, and that it is "beyond cure"!

I don't know how people are still on their high horses, claiming that they earn or maintain there salvation. God is absolute and reserves the right to Chose his elect based on his reasons and purposed; his mercy and compassion(romans 9). The Law was to break his elect, and drive them to Christ.

You may ask, well what is someone decides not to follow Christ?

1 John will say:

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 describe very plainly, that God predestines his elect to sonship. Not by human "effort or desire". Since our the only means of making a decision have been stripped, how can anyone continue to say that we choose God, or that we choose to stay???

Christ is the purpose of our world. Christ is the story of the Bible.

Free-will to choose God is a lie. Christ is the only way, and he's done it all..

Do you know that you're elect?

Yes.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 2:31:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 2:12:05 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/29/2012 1:51:44 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 1:49:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Our biggest mistake, is thinking the universe and God revolve around us; That God for some reason, is not as holy, and not as just, as he is described in the word.

It doesn't matter what coulda, woulda, shoulda, happen; or why God didn't just make everyone perfect and eliminate all evil. All that matters is: We are sinful and he is Holy; He does things based on his purpose and will; He is omniscient- therefore, nothing is out of his knowledge and understanding.


He established the Law: Be peferct and live.

we found out, this wasn't meant for us. The greatest commandments eliminate all hope. On top of the hopeless requirements, he really lays into us, by making sure we know how hopelessly lost we are.

(Romans 3:9-20, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9)

Romans 3 makes sure we all know(jew&gentile) that none of us are righteous. We all are wicked and selfish, not one of us seeks God. Then in Mark 7, for those who still believe they can be righteous from the external works, and those who blame satan, food, or drink for their depravity- It is laid out by Christ that we are all wicked from the inside, and that from within ourselves comes sin. Finally, for those who don't get the picture, in Jeremiah, our hearts are declared the most wicked part of us, and that it is "beyond cure"!

I don't know how people are still on their high horses, claiming that they earn or maintain there salvation. God is absolute and reserves the right to Chose his elect based on his reasons and purposed; his mercy and compassion(romans 9). The Law was to break his elect, and drive them to Christ.

You may ask, well what is someone decides not to follow Christ?

1 John will say:

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 describe very plainly, that God predestines his elect to sonship. Not by human "effort or desire". Since our the only means of making a decision have been stripped, how can anyone continue to say that we choose God, or that we choose to stay???

Christ is the purpose of our world. Christ is the story of the Bible.

Free-will to choose God is a lie. Christ is the only way, and he's done it all..

Do you know that you're elect?

Yes.

Does God ever deceive people into thinking that they're elect, or does he ever allow them to be deceived into thinking they're elect, if you prefer the passive version?
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 2:45:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 2:31:47 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 2:12:05 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 5/29/2012 1:51:44 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 1:49:44 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Our biggest mistake, is thinking the universe and God revolve around us; That God for some reason, is not as holy, and not as just, as he is described in the word.

It doesn't matter what coulda, woulda, shoulda, happen; or why God didn't just make everyone perfect and eliminate all evil. All that matters is: We are sinful and he is Holy; He does things based on his purpose and will; He is omniscient- therefore, nothing is out of his knowledge and understanding.


He established the Law: Be peferct and live.

we found out, this wasn't meant for us. The greatest commandments eliminate all hope. On top of the hopeless requirements, he really lays into us, by making sure we know how hopelessly lost we are.

(Romans 3:9-20, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9)

Romans 3 makes sure we all know(jew&gentile) that none of us are righteous. We all are wicked and selfish, not one of us seeks God. Then in Mark 7, for those who still believe they can be righteous from the external works, and those who blame satan, food, or drink for their depravity- It is laid out by Christ that we are all wicked from the inside, and that from within ourselves comes sin. Finally, for those who don't get the picture, in Jeremiah, our hearts are declared the most wicked part of us, and that it is "beyond cure"!

I don't know how people are still on their high horses, claiming that they earn or maintain there salvation. God is absolute and reserves the right to Chose his elect based on his reasons and purposed; his mercy and compassion(romans 9). The Law was to break his elect, and drive them to Christ.

You may ask, well what is someone decides not to follow Christ?

1 John will say:

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 describe very plainly, that God predestines his elect to sonship. Not by human "effort or desire". Since our the only means of making a decision have been stripped, how can anyone continue to say that we choose God, or that we choose to stay???

Christ is the purpose of our world. Christ is the story of the Bible.

Free-will to choose God is a lie. Christ is the only way, and he's done it all..

Do you know that you're elect?

Yes.

Does God ever deceive people into thinking that they're elect, or does he ever allow them to be deceived into thinking they're elect, if you prefer the passive version?

No.

Mark 7
20 He went on: "What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person."

James 1
13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/2/2012 5:05:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 10:37:08 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 10:35:32 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/29/2012 10:29:33 AM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 9:59:42 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/28/2012 8:37:25 AM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:09:51 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Many are called but few are chosen:

We are elected, (not because of any personal merit, usually quite the opposite) to SPEND the mercy (the currency of the Kingdom) invested in us on those around us, to suffer them, love them and pray for them.

God is asking, demanding, a return on His investment:


I'm sorry I don't see what question you are trying to answer. If you have the time could you explain it a little clearer to me. Thank you.

The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not..'

But Election is solely a means of saving others; We must forgive others as we have been forgiven..

Salvation must be worked out, if we do not bear fruit we will be cut off, our tresspasses are forgiven only as we forgive those who tresspass against us, the measure we use will be used against us etc etc..

How does this do anything to answer the very objection that you brought up?...

Which objection? be more explicit..

Your very first sentence. :S

"The opposition to Calvinism is always that 'it's not fair that some should be elected and others not.."

I'm not with you..
The Cross.. the Cross.
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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6/2/2012 5:25:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Christian god's view of 'sin' in Calvinism is as follows:

~~Judgement Day~~

Sinner says:' I have sin that I didn't apologize for..'

god: 'HOW DARE YOU DO WHAT I ALREADY PREDESTINED YOU TO DO!!'

It's good to note that this under biblical morality is horrible!

Just curious, Why would anyone believe this?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/2/2012 5:28:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/2/2012 5:25:54 AM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
The Christian god's view of 'sin' in Calvinism is as follows:

~~Judgement Day~~

Sinner says:' I have sin that I didn't apologize for..'

god: 'HOW DARE YOU DO WHAT I ALREADY PREDESTINED YOU TO DO!!'

It's good to note that this under biblical morality is horrible!

Just curious, Why would anyone believe this?

New International Version (NIV)

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11 "No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
The Cross.. the Cross.