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Two Plainly Crazy Things Theists Believe

jat93
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5/28/2012 5:37:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
To give credit where credit is due, the first "irrationality" is taken pretty directly from speeches by Christopher Hitchens. These are two things I've been thinking about lately that honestly prevent me from accepting theism as true, and to me prove that it is immensely unlikely and in the case of the second flat out impossible.

Irrationality #1

Let's say that the consensus is that our species, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years. This is the estimate given by physician-geneticist Francis Collins who is a Christian and believes in theistic evolution. Richard Dawkins thinks the number might be around 250,000. But let's take the lesser one. In order to be a theist, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, and most people having a life expectancy of about 25 years... Famine, struggle, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years. Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then about 2000-3000 years ago, heaven thinks "That's enough of that. It's time to intervene." And the best way to do this would be by making a revelation in a primitive, ignorant, backwards society somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East - where the news would surely take centuries to spread around the world, at the very least. God didn't appear to the Chinese, for example, where people could read and study evidence and have civilization, and surely spread the news at a much quicker rate. Then (for all the Christians out there) a few centuries later, God thinks the best way to intervene yet again would be to condemn someone to a human sacrifice in that same primitive, backwards, illiterate area.

This is a nonsensical and ridiculous idea, and the only reason anyone would believe it is if they had a personal stake in doing so and wanted to continue believing in their religion at all costs. Nobody who was truly unbiased, seeking the truth, and didn't have a huge motivational desire to adhere to one of the three monotheisms (based on what they were raised to believe, what they have put into their faith in time and effort and emotion, etc) would not find this idea to be at least a little suspicious.

Irrationality #2

The Bible (or Quran) is not just a moral book. It's not just decent or not bad. Its guidelines are the very epitome of morality. It is the result of a literally perfectly good and benevolent being. In fact, many theists believe that morality is impossible to attain without these books. So let's briefly analyze some of the content of this book and see if it holds up to the moral standard that most theists seem to think it does.

In Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 28: 58-59 God promises vengeance in the form of awful plagues and punishment upon the descendants of those who worship another God. In Numbers 11:1, God consumes a bunch of Israelites with fire for complaining too much. The list of individuals to be publicly and gruesomely executed includes disobedient children, homosexuals, witches, adulterers, and so on. Exodus 21 explicitly condones the buying, selling, and owning of slaves; verses 20 and 21 of the same chapter decree that if you beat your slave to the point of death you will be severely punished, but if he's still alive after a day or two, the owner is let totally off the hook without so much as a word of rebuke. The slave owners of the South were clearly on the right side of the theological debate, something they never let the abolitionists forget.

God commits genocide by flooding the earth and destroying everybody alive. This includes almost all infants/children and animals. (Surely all the fetuses as well! It seems the pro-life movement which almost entirely consists of bible supporting theists worship a God who is not so pro-life himself.) God could have just made all the evil people disappear, given his omnipotence and omnibenvolence. But he went out of his way to drown almost everyone, many of whom were surely innocent of any major crime.

God is also an active supporter and sponsor of genocide. Check out Deuteronomy 20: 13 - 17; a section that I happened to have learned not too long ago in my 10th grade Bible class. Of course, there's the usual "slaughter every living thing you can possibly slaughter" and "leave nothing alive that can breathe," but then there's the "take everyone else you haven't slaughtered, take them captive, and enslave them," and the "But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shall you take to yourself; and you shall eat the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you."

To those Christians who would write off the atrocities of the New Testament - Jesus himself clearly expected people to keep slaves, often using slaves in his metaphors/parables. Paul in the book of Timothy admonishes slaves to serve their masters obediently. And might I add that while in the Old Testament, God is finished with his enemies after he has brutally murdered the men and commanded the Israelites to rape and enslave the women, it is in the New Testament where we find the idea that those who reject God will depart into everlasting fire. God punishes you in ways that would embarrass the most ambitious psychopath even after you're dead.

If you know anything about the Quran, you know it's not much different. Certainly its positions on slavery, women's rights, and genocide is no better; in fact in many cases they are even more heinous.

To be a theist, you have to believe that not only are your holy books not evil, despite the fact that they are filled with support (and commands!) to rape, enslave, murder, commit genocide, etc. They're not just decent, not just okay. They are the best books, in moral terms. Nothing created by mankind can exceed these works of ultimate goodness and perfection. They came from a being wiser than any human, indeed beyond human comprehension, who is perfect in his infinite goodness and wisdom. Again, can this really be believed by anyone who doesn't have an explicit desire to rationalize these problems and believe in the Bible? If you were to explain to someone living today who had never heard of or read the bible that it was written by a perfect, all loving source, and they read the things I mentioned above, there is absolutely no way they'd believe you.
OberHerr
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5/28/2012 5:43:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Quick question, what with your sudden influx of anti-theists threads?
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Ahmed.M
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5/28/2012 5:43:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:37:40 PM, jat93 wrote:
If you know anything about the Quran, you know it's not much different. Certainly its positions on slavery, women's rights, and genocide is no better; in fact in many cases they are even more heinous.

What is this? You can't just stamp the Quran as the exact same as the bible and brush it off, c'mon man that's unfair.
stubs
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5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/28/2012 6:05:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:37:40 PM, jat93 wrote:
If you know anything about the Quran, you know it's not much different.
You know you dedicate about zero characters on describing the Quran, right?

Certainly its positions on slavery, women's rights, and genocide is no better; in fact in many cases they are even more heinous.
Troll harder please. I'll give you $50 if you name one so-called heinous thing in the Quran that you cannot find in the Bible. Name it. And to compare genocide in the Bible to ANYTHING in the Quran is just idiotic. I understand you haven't read anything though; You just want to put the Bible and the Quran under the same umbrella. You can't, and never will.
stubs
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5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:05:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
You know you dedicate about zero characters on describing the Quran, right?

And to compare genocide in the Bible to ANYTHING in the Quran is just idiotic.

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text
jat93
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5/28/2012 6:14:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.

Which God? Yahweh? Jesus? Allah? It's silly and wrong to just say "God" unless you're referring to the purely deistic conception, as there have been tens of thousands of supposedly omnipotent, omniscient personal Gods throughout our history. I am as angry at Yahweh as I am at Thor or Odin. Which is not very much.

On the contrary, I think this topic had some pretty solid and intellectual points. Feel free to attempt to rebut them. On a few threads of mine you've made similar responses with absolutely zero content (such as "oh, well this definitely proves it", or something similar, and ending the comment there). Until you offer a rebuttal of substance, I have reason to feel like you are simply having faith in God more so than actually providing intellectual arguments for His existence. Feel free to offer some if and when you want to.
Mirza
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5/28/2012 6:15:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:05:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
You know you dedicate about zero characters on describing the Quran, right?

And to compare genocide in the Bible to ANYTHING in the Quran is just idiotic.

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text
Interpret it however you want. There's not any kind of a metaphor in the Quran that comes close to whatever the Bible says. Only intellectually lazy people can compare the two books. The only battles the Quran mentions were explicitly in battlefields, and someone compares that to "dashing newborns against rocks" and "seizing cities and everything within." Not to mention the rape rules; Marriage to rapists being obligatory and whatnot.

Nice little metaphor or not, still not comparable to the pure text in the Quran by any measurements.
Rational_Thinker9119
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5/28/2012 6:23:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.

+1
stubs
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5/28/2012 6:25:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:14:41 PM, jat93 wrote:

On the contrary, I think this topic had some pretty solid and intellectual points. Feel free to attempt to rebut them. On a few threads of mine you've made similar responses with absolutely zero content (such as "oh, well this definitely proves it", or something similar, and ending the comment there). Until you offer a rebuttal of substance, I have reason to feel like you are simply having faith in God more so than actually providing intellectual arguments for His existence. Feel free to offer some if and when you want to.

Not once have I commented any any thread saying, "oh well this definitely proves it." I'm not even sure I have ever commented on a thread of your before. I could have but I don't remember it if I did. I would offer some rebuttals but there simply just too long and I am too lazy to go through it all. If you ever msg me shorter objections I will gladly talk to you about it. I have provided intellectual arguments for Gods existence in my debates. You are free to look at them if you would like.
stubs
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5/28/2012 6:27:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:15:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
Interpret it however you want. There's not any kind of a metaphor in the Quran that comes close to whatever the Bible says. Only intellectually lazy people can compare the two books. The only battles the Quran mentions were explicitly in battlefields, and someone compares that to "dashing newborns against rocks" and "seizing cities and everything within." Not to mention the rape rules; Marriage to rapists being obligatory and whatnot.

Nice little metaphor or not, still not comparable to the pure text in the Quran by any measurements.

I did not say it was a nice little metaphor haha. I was just saying I wouldn't call it genocide.
popculturepooka
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5/28/2012 6:36:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

I don't. And before you ask, yes, I've already read nearly all of Paul Copan's, Matthew Flannagan's, Nicholas Wolterstorrf's and William Lane Craig's (I even have Copan book Is God a Moral Monster?) writings on the matter. I just don't find them plausible at all.
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Ahmed.M
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5/28/2012 6:43:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:36:38 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

I don't. And before you ask, yes, I've already read nearly all of Paul Copan's, Matthew Flannagan's, Nicholas Wolterstorrf's and William Lane Craig's (I even have Copan book Is God a Moral Monster?) writings on the matter. I just don't find them plausible at all.

Popculturepooka, I don't understand you, you say the bible contains errors (http://www.debate.org...), you are saying right now that it contains genocide, and you disagree with the concept of hell (you debate against it).

In all honesty, how can you stay a christian and believe in the Christian God in the face of all these concessions you have made? Can you even be a Christian if you reject all this?

Don't you think your Christianity falls apart when you concede the book that you are suppose to believe is from him has a mistake in it? Isn't the Christian God suppose to be perfect? I am interested to see your response, I haven't seen a Christian like this before....
jat93
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5/28/2012 6:44:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:05:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:37:40 PM, jat93 wrote:
If you know anything about the Quran, you know it's not much different.
You know you dedicate about zero characters on describing the Quran, right?

Yeah. It was my fault not to say that this is predominantly directed at those who support the Bible. I should have said that in a disclaimer or something. For that I apologize, you're right - it was my bad.

Certainly its positions on slavery, women's rights, and genocide is no better; in fact in many cases they are even more heinous.
Troll harder please. I'll give you $50 if you name one so-called heinous thing in the Quran that you cannot find in the Bible. Name it. And to compare genocide in the Bible to ANYTHING in the Quran is just idiotic. I understand you haven't read anything though; You just want to put the Bible and the Quran under the same umbrella. You can't, and never will.

You know, I actually have read much of the Quran through. A while ago though and not all of it. But some random dude in NYC was handing out free Qurans so I picked one up.

Anyway, much of the Biblical stories are contained in the Quran. Correct me if I'm wrong - but those who disbelieved Noah were all wiped out in a brutal flood, al the Egyptian first borns were killed, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorra... Granted, these are also in the Bible. I concede that point to you.

Here are eighteen invocations to violence, murder, slavery, etc. from the Qur'an: 9:5, 9:29, 2:190-193, 2:244, 3:125-126, 3:169, 3:195, 4:71, 4:74-77, 4:84, 4:89-91, 5:33, 5:35, 8:9-10, 8:15-17, 8:39-40, 9:123, and 47:4.

The only way one can get around this is if they interpret them metaphorically, but some of them refer so blatantly to physical violence against unbelievers that I'm really not sure an honest person can take that stance.

Not counting the seemingly endless amount of verses about hell and the torment of "the fire"... Allah is constantly talking about (gloating, even) the painful doom he has prepared for unbelievers:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

And in regards to women's rights in Islam: The Quran delivers basically the same sexist message as the Bible does. Women should be subject to the whim of their husbands and basically owned by them. Disobedient wives should be whipped/beaten. The 11th century sage Al Ghazali, perhaps the most influential Muslim since Muhammad, summarized a woman's role as follows:

"She should stay at home and get on with her spinning. She should not go out often. She must not be well informed, nor should she be communicative with her neighbors, and only listen to them when absolutely necessary. She should take care of her husband and respect him in his presence and in his absence and seek to satisfy him in everything. She must not leave the house without his permission... She should put on old clothes and take up deserted alleyways to avoid markets and make sure a stranger does not hear her voice or recognize her... She should accept what her husband gives her as sufficient sexual needs... She should be ready to satisfy her husband's sexual needs at any moment."

If this is a false view of women's roles based on the Quran, are you saying that you know the Quran better than Al-Ghazali did? What do you know about its verses that eluded him?

However, being Jewish, and being the fact that most of America is Christian, I am obviously way more well versed in the Bible than I am in the Quran. It was unfair for me to brush over it so quickly and yet make the claims about it that I did and you were right to take me up on it.
GeoLaureate8
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5/28/2012 6:45:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:43:39 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Quick question, what with your sudden influx of anti-theists threads?

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:
I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 6:23:58 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
+1

Not a valid response.

Come on. This is pathetic. I don't necessarily agree with OP, but come on, at least counter him with some actual rebuttals with substantial arguments.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
stubs
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5/28/2012 6:46:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:36:38 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

I don't. And before you ask, yes, I've already read nearly all of Paul Copan's, Matthew Flannagan's, Nicholas Wolterstorrf's and William Lane Craig's (I even have Copan book Is God a Moral Monster?) writings on the matter. I just don't find them plausible at all.

I don't really like debating these things between Christians on the forums so no promises on if I'll keep responding unless it's through messages haha. One thing I look at is in Joshua it says "There were no Anakim left in the land" (11:22); indeed, they were "utterly destroyed" in the hill country (11:21). Yet later in Joshua, Caleb asked permission to drive out the Anakites from the hill country (14:12-15; cp. 15:13-19). Yes, Joshua uses ancient conventional warfare rhetoric. Many other ANE military accounts were full of bravado and exaggeration, depicting total devastation. ANE readers knew this was massive hyperbole and not literally true. Interestingly, Deuteronomy 7:2–5 uses words like "utterly destroy" right next to "you shall not intermarry with them." That is just one of the reasons why I think it should not be labeled genocide. That's my opinion.
jat93
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5/28/2012 6:46:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:43:39 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Quick question, what with your sudden influx of anti-theists threads?

- Theism/anti-theism interests me a lot, I could spend all day reading about it (I sometimes do)
- I am an atheist; it's something I'm passionate about
- I like getting theistic responses to challenge my beliefs and DDO is a wonderful place to do this because it really has the most intelligent/best debating theists I've ever encountered whether in real life or the internet.
jat93
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5/28/2012 6:51:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 5:43:44 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:37:40 PM, jat93 wrote:
If you know anything about the Quran, you know it's not much different. Certainly its positions on slavery, women's rights, and genocide is no better; in fact in many cases they are even more heinous.

What is this? You can't just stamp the Quran as the exact same as the bible and brush it off, c'mon man that's unfair.

You're right, it was my bad, and thanks for pointing this out rationally and not like a total jerk. I should have either left it out or expounded on it further. I actually left a brief response to Mirza just now on this thread in response to his comment which basically said the same thing as yours and a bit more.
stubs
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5/28/2012 6:51:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:45:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:43:39 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Quick question, what with your sudden influx of anti-theists threads?

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:
I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 6:23:58 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
+1

Not a valid response.

Come on. This is pathetic. I don't necessarily agree with OP, but come on, at least counter him with some actual rebuttals with substantial arguments.

^ Not a valid response....
jat93
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5/28/2012 6:53:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:05:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
You know you dedicate about zero characters on describing the Quran, right?

And to compare genocide in the Bible to ANYTHING in the Quran is just idiotic.

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

Why? God literally commands wiping out the 7 nations who were inhabiting the land of Canaan. It was either "gtfo of your land because we have God on our side and he is giving it to us" or "it's time to die for you - assuming you're male, but all the virgins we get to keep for ourselves." I referred to verses in the OP that prove this. But I guess that's just me being angry at God and not offering intellectual arguments, eh?

If it's not genocide could you kindly tell me why not/what differentiates it from genocide?
stubs
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5/28/2012 6:54:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:53:33 PM, jat93 wrote:

Why? God literally commands wiping out the 7 nations who were inhabiting the land of Canaan. It was either "gtfo of your land because we have God on our side and he is giving it to us" or "it's time to die for you - assuming you're male, but all the virgins we get to keep for ourselves." I referred to verses in the OP that prove this. But I guess that's just me being angry at God and not offering intellectual arguments, eh?

If it's not genocide could you kindly tell me why not/what differentiates it from genocide?

I answered above. I will clarify if you would like more.
GeoLaureate8
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5/28/2012 6:54:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:51:33 PM, stubs wrote:
^ Not a valid response....

I'm not taking sides on this issue. You are. You say the OP is wrong and provided ZERO legitimate rebuttals.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
OberHerr
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5/28/2012 6:55:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:51:33 PM, stubs wrote:
^ Not a valid response....

I'm not taking sides on this issue. You are. You say the OP is wrong and provided ZERO legitimate rebuttals.

What I gathered from his responses is that it wasn't worthy of them...
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jat93
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5/28/2012 6:55:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:15:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:05:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
You know you dedicate about zero characters on describing the Quran, right?

And to compare genocide in the Bible to ANYTHING in the Quran is just idiotic.

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text
Interpret it however you want. There's not any kind of a metaphor in the Quran that comes close to whatever the Bible says. Only intellectually lazy people can compare the two books.

But given that sooo much of the Quran is taken directly from stories in the Old and New Testaments, how can you say that only intellectually lazy people can compare them, when so much is nearly identical (just with the name Allah for God instead of Yahweh)?
popculturepooka
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5/28/2012 6:56:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:43:46 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:36:38 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:

I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

I don't. And before you ask, yes, I've already read nearly all of Paul Copan's, Matthew Flannagan's, Nicholas Wolterstorrf's and William Lane Craig's (I even have Copan book Is God a Moral Monster?) writings on the matter. I just don't find them plausible at all.

Popculturepooka, I don't understand you, you say the bible contains errors (http://www.debate.org...), you are saying right now that it contains genocide, and you disagree with the concept of hell (you debate against it).


I don't disagree with the concept of hell; I just don't think hell is eternal because a) the biblical evidence isn't compelling in my view and b) neither are the philosophical/theological arguments for it compelling.

In all honesty, how can you stay a christian and believe in the Christian God in the face of all these concessions you have made? Can you even be a Christian if you reject all this?


There have been Christians for hundreds of years (even over a thousand plus years back - see Gregory of Nyssa)who have made the same points I have made (and in much better ways). I'm just following their lead and there is nothing particularly special about my position(s) except that it tends to run counter to a lot American protestant conservative Christianity. Outside of America one tends to get a much different view of theological issues (like if you look at the Eastern Orthodox church).

Don't you think your Christianity falls apart when you concede the book that you are suppose to believe is from him has a mistake in it?

Nope. I hold to a Barthian theory of divine inspiration, not to a dictational theory. In fact, I think when typical conservative views of divine inspiration are taken to their logical conclusion they lead to a form of idolatry (which as you know is heinous); making the bible into something it is not.

Isn't the Christian God suppose to be perfect?

Yes.

I am interested to see your response, I haven't seen a Christian like this before....

No problem.
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/28/2012 6:57:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:55:20 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I'm not taking sides on this issue. You are. You say the OP is wrong and provided ZERO legitimate rebuttals.

What I gathered from his responses is that it wasn't worthy of them...

If the OP was so bad, then why couldn't he come up with a better refutation to it than "it's hyerbole, not literal."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/28/2012 6:57:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:51:33 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:45:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:43:39 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Quick question, what with your sudden influx of anti-theists threads?

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 6:12:31 PM, stubs wrote:
I think calling it genocide is a horrid interpretation of the text

Not a valid response.

At 5/28/2012 6:23:58 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
+1

Not a valid response.

Come on. This is pathetic. I don't necessarily agree with OP, but come on, at least counter him with some actual rebuttals with substantial arguments.

^ Not a valid response....

LOL.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/28/2012 6:57:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:51:33 PM, stubs wrote:
^ Not a valid response....

I'm not taking sides on this issue. You are. You say the OP is wrong and provided ZERO legitimate rebuttals.

I gave about a paragraph about the genocide claim. If you want me to give more information than I gladly will. I believe my response is on page two of this thread.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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5/28/2012 6:58:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:55:20 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/28/2012 6:51:33 PM, stubs wrote:
^ Not a valid response....

I'm not taking sides on this issue. You are. You say the OP is wrong and provided ZERO legitimate rebuttals.

What I gathered from his responses is that it wasn't worthy of them...

I did give a response. It's on page 2. Sorry for the confusion.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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5/28/2012 7:00:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/28/2012 6:23:58 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/28/2012 5:45:54 PM, stubs wrote:
Yeah I feel like this dude is angry at God more so than actually having intellectual arguments against His existence.

+1

Given that you're an atheist as well this is quite surprising - my first argument for example was taken directly from a speech by Christopher Hitchens and is one he used regularly in speeches/debates. I'm assuming that given Hitchens was a representative of the new atheist movement and that you're a relatively young atheist with the user name "Rational Thinker" you're a fan of Hitchens; it's just probable given those facts and the New Atheist movement's apparent appeal to people of this age group.

And the second argument consisted of me pointing out immoral bible verses... I'm not sure what atheist would object to that or deem it not enough of an "intellectual argument."

If you agree that I'm just angry at God more so than having intellectual arguments against his existence, you must think the same thing about Hitchens, Harris, and Dawkins because these are arguments they use(d) frequently and would agree with. Yet somehow I doubt you would apply the same statement to those guys. Did you not read my post or something?