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Why Are You So Sure???

country77
Posts: 5
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8/11/2009 5:01:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
(this debate is a question to the christian who believes in the Bible and is "sure" there heavenbound)

Ive read the Bible for Years and did not aproach it with certain believes that church or family has believed or taught. So you say the Bible is true?...Ok then why not go read ALL of it? And not just the verses that are easy to absorb. Out of all the christians i know and around the world when i read the Bible it pretty much shows that FEW of them will make it into heaven and at many will say Lord Lord and go to hell still. So what makes a christian so sure that there going to heaven?...go ahead..open up your Bible and read along nomatter what part your at you can see that there was only a few "rightious" on the earth. Narrow is the way that leadeth to life and few be there that find it.....again....why are peaple so sure there going to heaven?...to me that will only be a fullfillment of the many that says Lord Lord and was sure that they was heavenbound and were not....think again before you assume your going there....read your own bible and bring back some verses that you say teaches you that your suppose to assume your heavenbound.
KeithKroeger91
Posts: 178
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8/11/2009 5:21:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:01:00 PM, country77 wrote:
(this debate is a question to the christian who believes in the Bible and is "sure" there heavenbound)

Ive read the Bible for Years and did not aproach it with certain believes that church or family has believed or taught. So you say the Bible is true?...Ok then why not go read ALL of it? And not just the verses that are easy to absorb. Out of all the christians i know and around the world when i read the Bible it pretty much shows that FEW of them will make it into heaven and at many will say Lord Lord and go to hell still. So what makes a christian so sure that there going to heaven?...go ahead..open up your Bible and read along nomatter what part your at you can see that there was only a few "rightious" on the earth. Narrow is the way that leadeth to life and few be there that find it.....again....why are peaple so sure there going to heaven?...to me that will only be a fullfillment of the many that says Lord Lord and was sure that they was heavenbound and were not....think again before you assume your going there....read your own bible and bring back some verses that you say teaches you that your suppose to assume your heavenbound.

Christianity is not a works based religion. All you have to do is believe that jesus Christ is your Lord and savior and repent for sins.
I win ;D
country77
Posts: 5
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8/11/2009 5:26:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
well if you believe in the bible then you know there is more to it then that.....if a person was to only have to believe then there would be alot more peaple going to heaven...sounds like you never really read a bible.....just went along with some comferting words a pastor or christian has told you...the devil believes...i dont think he is going to heaven...lol
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/11/2009 5:33:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The Bible doesn't say we go to Heaven. (Wha?) That's right.

The Christian should know that his final resting place is "New Jerusalem" (See Revelations 21).
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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8/11/2009 5:36:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:33:55 PM, wjmelements wrote:
The Bible doesn't say we go to Heaven. (Wha?) That's right.

The Christian should know that his final resting place is "New Jerusalem" (See Revelations 21).

Now there's a real something I can use.

Also, I've heard that to be a true Christian (that is, to believe in the Bible), you have to be clinically insane, as it contradicts itself plenty of times. And I only put "I've heard" instead of "I've read" because I tried reading the Bible once but I got bored and dropped it halfway through Exodus.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

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"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
country77
Posts: 5
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8/11/2009 5:42:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Heaven,New Jeruselum whatever....not the point im trying to make this aint about where eternity is at but why are peaple so sure that there going there when there own Bible says different
KeithKroeger91
Posts: 178
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8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:26:56 PM, country77 wrote:
well if you believe in the bible then you know there is more to it then that.....if a person was to only have to believe then there would be alot more peaple going to heaven...sounds like you never really read a bible.....just went along with some comferting words a pastor or christian has told you...the devil believes...i dont think he is going to heaven...lol

Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.
I win ;D
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/11/2009 6:57:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to save the devil?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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8/11/2009 7:13:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 6:57:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to save the devil?

Because the devil is pure evil. He can't be saved.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/11/2009 7:17:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 7:13:10 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:57:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to save the devil?

Because the devil is pure evil. He can't be saved.

The Devil rebelled against God. How is he any more evil than someone else who rebels against God? Surely both are in league to be saved.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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8/11/2009 9:09:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 7:17:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/11/2009 7:13:10 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:57:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to save the devil?

Because the devil is pure evil. He can't be saved.

The Devil rebelled against God. How is he any more evil than someone else who rebels against God? Surely both are in league to be saved.

The best argument I have heard for why a fallen angel is not deserving of redemption where a fallen human is, is that the fallen angel was brought into full glory, and where thus fully aware of the consequences of their rejection of God, where as humans, while having been told of the consequences, are as yet imperfect and unable to conceive of the consequences of their sins. Therefore, in having faith and seeking glory, the Christian is redeemed for his willingness to understand God's will and accept it, where as the angel is punished for having absolutely known God's will and rejected it.

Functionally, it is the difference between knowing that you are directly disobeying an order and thinking that you are following an order properly. One case is treason, the other mistake.

Here's a question though - if a Christian is only spared the fate of the angels for his ignorance, how can he comprehend God's will? If he can not comprehend God's will, then how can he know that God has selected him?

I would say that claiming to have faith is not enough -- actually having faith would be necessary, for if true faith is expressed as perfect good, then having true faith would lead you to act perfectly good. Any faith less than this would necessarily show in one's wicked deeds. Of course, one who possesses true faith would be humble. Therefore, the person saved is the one who never boasts of it.
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/12/2009 4:36:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:01:00 PM, country77 wrote:
(this debate is a question to the christian who believes in the Bible and is "sure" there heavenbound)

Ive read the Bible for Years and did not aproach it with certain believes that church or family has believed or taught. So you say the Bible is true?...Ok then why not go read ALL of it? And not just the verses that are easy to absorb. Out of all the christians i know and around the world when i read the Bible it pretty much shows that FEW of them will make it into heaven and at many will say Lord Lord and go to hell still. So what makes a christian so sure that there going to heaven?...go ahead..open up your Bible and read along nomatter what part your at you can see that there was only a few "rightious" on the earth. Narrow is the way that leadeth to life and few be there that find it.....again....why are peaple so sure there going to heaven?...to me that will only be a fullfillment of the many that says Lord Lord and was sure that they was heavenbound and were not....think again before you assume your going there....read your own bible and bring back some verses that you say teaches you that your suppose to assume your heavenbound.

You have a good point. Many many 'Christians' aren't going to make it.
Where does that leave YOU?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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8/12/2009 4:42:07 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 9:09:59 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 8/11/2009 7:17:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/11/2009 7:13:10 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:57:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to save the devil?

Because the devil is pure evil. He can't be saved.

The Devil rebelled against God. How is he any more evil than someone else who rebels against God? Surely both are in league to be saved.

The best argument I have heard for why a fallen angel is not deserving of redemption where a fallen human is, is that the fallen angel was brought into full glory, and where thus fully aware of the consequences of their rejection of God, where as humans, while having been told of the consequences, are as yet imperfect and unable to conceive of the consequences of their sins. Therefore, in having faith and seeking glory, the Christian is redeemed for his willingness to understand God's will and accept it, where as the angel is punished for having absolutely known God's will and rejected it.

Functionally, it is the difference between knowing that you are directly disobeying an order and thinking that you are following an order properly. One case is treason, the other mistake.

Here's a question though - if a Christian is only spared the fate of the angels for his ignorance, how can he comprehend God's will? If he can not comprehend God's will, then how can he know that God has selected him?

I would say that claiming to have faith is not enough -- actually having faith would be necessary, for if true faith is expressed as perfect good, then having true faith would lead you to act perfectly good. Any faith less than this would necessarily show in one's wicked deeds. Of course, one who possesses true faith would be humble. Therefore, the person saved is the one who never boasts of it.

Spectacular answer, I learned something new today. A question though: When we die and have lived a pious enough life to enter heaven, is it possible for us to fall from there?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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8/12/2009 10:51:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:21:18 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:

Christianity is not a works based religion. All you have to do is believe that jesus Christ is your Lord and savior and repent for sins.

Great. So i can believe that Jesus christ is my lord and saviour, and repent for my sins, and go out and stone my disobediant kids, enslave people from other countries, kill people from other religions and rape women after paying their fathers 100 silver peices, and still enter heaven? Huzzah!
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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8/12/2009 1:36:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 10:51:52 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/11/2009 5:21:18 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:

Christianity is not a works based religion. All you have to do is believe that jesus Christ is your Lord and savior and repent for sins.

Great. So i can believe that Jesus christ is my lord and saviour, and repent for my sins, and go out and stone my disobediant kids, enslave people from other countries, kill people from other religions and rape women after paying their fathers 100 silver peices, and still enter heaven? Huzzah!

I wouldn't consider that to be repenting.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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8/12/2009 1:54:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 1:36:25 PM, wjmelements wrote:

I wouldn't consider that to be repenting.

Hmm, so stoning an unruly child is a sin?

Remember what he wrote. "Repent for your sins".
Lexicaholic
Posts: 526
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8/12/2009 5:57:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 4:42:07 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 8/11/2009 9:09:59 PM, Lexicaholic wrote:
At 8/11/2009 7:17:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/11/2009 7:13:10 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:57:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 8/11/2009 6:53:11 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:
Jesus is not the devils savior. Jesus is OUR savior.

Why wouldn't Jesus want to save the devil?

Because the devil is pure evil. He can't be saved.

The Devil rebelled against God. How is he any more evil than someone else who rebels against God? Surely both are in league to be saved.

The best argument I have heard for why a fallen angel is not deserving of redemption where a fallen human is, is that the fallen angel was brought into full glory, and were thus fully aware of the consequences of their rejection of God, where as humans, while having been told of the consequences, are as yet imperfect and unable to conceive of the consequences of their sins. Therefore, in having faith and seeking glory, the Christian is redeemed for his willingness to understand God's will and accept it, where as the angel is punished for having absolutely known God's will and rejected it.

Functionally, it is the difference between knowing that you are directly disobeying an order and thinking that you are following an order properly. One case is treason, the other mistake.

Here's a question though - if a Christian is only spared the fate of the angels for his ignorance, how can he comprehend God's will? If he can not comprehend God's will, then how can he know that God has selected him?

I would say that claiming to have faith is not enough -- actually having faith would be necessary, for if true faith is expressed as perfect good, then having true faith would lead you to act perfectly good. Any faith less than this would necessarily show in one's wicked deeds. Of course, one who possesses true faith would be humble. Therefore, the person saved is the one who never boasts of it.

Spectacular answer, I learned something new today. A question though: When we die and have lived a pious enough life to enter heaven, is it possible for us to fall from there?

I would imagine the only logical answer would be theoretically yes, in that one could choose to disobey, but practically no, as the process of perfection is intended to overcome the limitations of the angels. Higher beings, such as angels, are assumed to not be as highly thought of by God as humans. This is attributed to humanity's potential, so it must be a more esteemed/greater potential than that of the angels.

The only way to overcome the limitation of perfect beings who could choose not to obey would be to create beings who would experience the price of disobedience without the penalties attached (due to imperfection) and, as a consequence of that creature's experience, transform that being into an angelic-like being that would never think of disobeying, because it had experienced the consequences of disobedience, but, by virtue of its forgivable imperfection, was allowed to overcome them.

Therefore, the potential of humanity is to become the perfect servants of God, as capable of the angels of treason, but functionally unable to as a consequence of their experience and the completeness of their faith. Logically, a being with complete faith in something could never turn from it, and the validation of that faith (through revelation) would seal the deal. This is not to say that some magical force binds the person from acting against God; rather, the perfectly faithful would no more think to act against God than a rational person would think to stare into the sun. Therefore, complete faith is the necessary ultimate pursuit of the Christian, for by it the Christian is transformed into something superhuman (or perhaps, more accurately, nearer to God).

By analogy, life is seen as the conditioning process of God's favored pet.

Of course, that leads us to a question as to how an all-knowing and all-powerful God would get it wrong the first time but, meh, what are you going to do? :)
http://mastersofcreationrpg.com... - My new site and long-developed project. Should be fun.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/13/2009 12:17:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:36:49 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 8/11/2009 5:33:55 PM, wjmelements wrote:
The Bible doesn't say we go to Heaven. (Wha?) That's right.

The Christian should know that his final resting place is "New Jerusalem" (See Revelations 21).

Now there's a real something I can use.

Also, I've heard that to be a true Christian (that is, to believe in the Bible), you have to be clinically insane, as it contradicts itself plenty of times. And I only put "I've heard" instead of "I've read" because I tried reading the Bible once but I got bored and dropped it halfway through Exodus.

Halfway? That's way further then I've gotten.

"In the beginning..." zZzZz
President of DDO
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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8/13/2009 12:33:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 10:51:52 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/11/2009 5:21:18 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:

Christianity is not a works based religion. All you have to do is believe that jesus Christ is your Lord and savior and repent for sins.

Great. So i can believe that Jesus christ is my lord and saviour, and repent for my sins, and go out and stone my disobediant kids, enslave people from other countries, kill people from other religions and rape women after paying their fathers 100 silver peices, and still enter heaven? Huzzah!

You are so ignorant. You can't just go in the Bible, pick up random verses, and try to denounce Christianity. In the Bible, all the verses tie together. The authors of the Bible lived in a time period much different from ours. They had a much different culture than ours. The Bible is symbolic of God and His perfection. I will debate u lmao
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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8/14/2009 4:04:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/11/2009 5:21:18 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:

Christianity is not a works based religion. All you have to do is believe that jesus Christ is your Lord and savior and repent for sins.

Oh wow... just.... wow. A list of works you must do in order to be saved:

Proof that works are actually needed:

2 Jam 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Do what is Lawful and Right

Eze 18:27 - When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

If you fornicate or know someone who does... kill them.

1 Cor 5:1, 5 - Deliver such a one [Fornicator] unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved.

Don't be a serpent or viper.

Mat 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Don't have sex. At all. Or maybe just with women.

Rev 14:3-4 - The hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth, these are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Do good things, but don't let others catch you at it.

Mat 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward.

Be more righteous than the Pharisees.

Mat 5:20 - Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Love the Lord your God, etc...

Luk 10:27-28 - Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself... this do, and thou shalt live.

Not just believe in transubstantiation, but also take part in it.

Jon 6:53 - Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Pwned. I can has interwebz now?

At 8/13/2009 12:33:37 AM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:

You are so ignorant. You can't just go in the Bible, pick up random verses, and try to denounce Christianity.

Actually, you can. What if I told you to love your neighbor as yourself and to good things for other people and pray to and love God, but you should kill three kittens on the first Tuesday after the Summer Solstice and spit on every Russian you see?

You'd immediately separate the kitten and Russian comments and denounce me, right? Exactly the same way someone can separate the comments about homosexuals, raping, pillaging, etc... and denounce Christianity.

In the Bible, all the verses tie together. The authors of the Bible lived in a time period much different from ours. They had a much different culture than ours. The Bible is symbolic of God and His perfection. I will debate u lmao

Of course they lived in a time period different from ours - they were ruled by ignorance, fear, and simple stupidity.... Technology may have improved, but it seems that some things never change in religion, eh?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/15/2009 6:02:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 1:54:51 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 8/12/2009 1:36:25 PM, wjmelements wrote:

I wouldn't consider that to be repenting.

Hmm, so stoning an unruly child is a sin?

Remember what he wrote. "Repent for your sins".

Stoning an unruly child is a command given to the Iraelites who had an agreement of the flesh with God.
Are you an Israelite? Do you have a covenant?

The ONLY covenant on offer to you is the NEW covenant of the Spirit: and we are commanded to be MERCIFUL.
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/15/2009 6:14:36 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/14/2009 4:04:31 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 8/11/2009 5:21:18 PM, KeithKroeger91 wrote:

Christianity is not a works based religion. All you have to do is believe that jesus Christ is your Lord and savior and repent for sins.

Oh wow... just.... wow. A list of works you must do in order to be saved:

Proof that works are actually needed:

2 Jam 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Do what is Lawful and Right

Eze 18:27 - When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul.

If you fornicate or know someone who does... kill them.

1 Cor 5:1, 5 - Deliver such a one [Fornicator] unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved.

Don't be a serpent or viper.

Mat 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Don't have sex. At all. Or maybe just with women.

Rev 14:3-4 - The hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth, these are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Do good things, but don't let others catch you at it.

Mat 6:1 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward.

Be more righteous than the Pharisees.

Mat 5:20 - Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Love the Lord your God, etc...

Luk 10:27-28 - Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself... this do, and thou shalt live.

Not just believe in transubstantiation, but also take part in it.

Jon 6:53 - Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Pwned. I can has interwebz now?

At 8/13/2009 12:33:37 AM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:

You are so ignorant. You can't just go in the Bible, pick up random verses, and try to denounce Christianity.

Actually, you can. What if I told you to love your neighbor as yourself and to good things for other people and pray to and love God, but you should kill three kittens on the first Tuesday after the Summer Solstice and spit on every Russian you see?

You'd immediately separate the kitten and Russian comments and denounce me, right? Exactly the same way someone can separate the comments about homosexuals, raping, pillaging, etc... and denounce Christianity.

In the Bible, all the verses tie together. The authors of the Bible lived in a time period much different from ours. They had a much different culture than ours. The Bible is symbolic of God and His perfection. I will debate u lmao

Of course they lived in a time period different from ours - they were ruled by ignorance, fear, and simple stupidity.... Technology may have improved, but it seems that some things never change in religion, eh?

No, we are saved by grace BUT works justify our salvation.
It's SO simple and your SO smart.. why don't you get?
Oh.. because you've CHOSEN not to.
You are CHOOSING hell.
The Cross.. the Cross.
country77
Posts: 5
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8/16/2009 2:44:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/12/2009 4:36:12 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 8/11/2009 5:01:00 PM, country77 wrote:
(this debate is a question to the christian who believes in the Bible and is "sure" there heavenbound)

Ive read the Bible for Years and did not aproach it with certain believes that church or family has believed or taught. So you say the Bible is true?...Ok then why not go read ALL of it? And not just the verses that are easy to absorb. Out of all the christians i know and around the world when i read the Bible it pretty much shows that FEW of them will make it into heaven and at many will say Lord Lord and go to hell still. So what makes a christian so sure that there going to heaven?...go ahead..open up your Bible and read along nomatter what part your at you can see that there was only a few "rightious" on the earth. Narrow is the way that leadeth to life and few be there that find it.....again....why are peaple so sure there going to heaven?...to me that will only be a fullfillment of the many that says Lord Lord and was sure that they was heavenbound and were not....think again before you assume your going there....read your own bible and bring back some verses that you say teaches you that your suppose to assume your heavenbound.

You have a good point. Many many 'Christians' aren't going to make it.
Where does that leave YOU?

I never said i was heavenbound now did I?