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Challenge to Theists

caveat
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5/29/2012 3:29:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why?
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:30:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:29:24 PM, caveat wrote:
Why?

They claim that these gods are false and do not exist. Therefore, they have a burden to prove that they do not exist.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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5/29/2012 3:33:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:30:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:29:24 PM, caveat wrote:
Why?

They claim that these gods are false and do not exist. Therefore, they have a burden to prove that they do not exist.

For some reason I was under the impression you subscribed to Christianity... perhaps I am thinking of someone else.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists. Please prove that these gods do not exist.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/29/2012 3:33:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

They do exist! Except they are not God's, they are created as you are. They may very well be spiritual beings and claim themselves Gods and are worshipped as such. But that does not mean they are Gods but fallen angels who appear as light.
TheAsylum
caveat
Posts: 2,137
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5/29/2012 3:35:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:33:48 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

They do exist! Except they are not God's, they are created as you are. They may very well be spiritual beings and claim themselves Gods and are worshipped as such. But that does not mean they are Gods but fallen angels who appear as light.

Conjecture.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. " Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to three." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:39:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to three." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

No.
Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?
Does that mean that we should accept that they exist?

The conclusion is that the burden of proof is on the Theists; they must prove that God exists. Atheists have no burden of proof because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 3:40:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to eight." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?

Fixed.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 3:42:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:39:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to three." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

No.

Why? Isn't that a negative statement about the existence of something?

Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?
Does that mean that we should accept that they exist?

The conclusion is that the burden of proof is on the Theists; they must prove that God exists. Atheists have no burden of proof because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist.

What about the above mathematical example?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:44:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:42:28 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:39:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to three." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

No.

Why? Isn't that a negative statement about the existence of something?

No, it's not. You are asserting that in this world, 3 is a distinct number from 5. That is a positive statement.
Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?
Does that mean that we should accept that they exist?

The conclusion is that the burden of proof is on the Theists; they must prove that God exists. Atheists have no burden of proof because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist.

What about the above mathematical example?
See above
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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5/29/2012 3:46:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hmm. Were I a theist, I would respond that I have strong evidence that my religion is true and that my religion entails that those being don't exist.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/29/2012 3:46:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:35:31 PM, caveat wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:48 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

They do exist! Except they are not God's, they are created as you are. They may very well be spiritual beings and claim themselves Gods and are worshipped as such. But that does not mean they are Gods but fallen angels who appear as light.

Conjecture.: :
Same as the post itself!
TheAsylum
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 3:47:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:44:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Rusty, do you believe in Santa?

Showing me to be a hypocrite doesn't refute my argument. Please stay on track. Is my statement a negative one or isn't it- and if so, why not?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/29/2012 3:47:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:46:16 PM, Kinesis wrote:
Hmm. Were I a theist, I would respond that I have strong evidence that my religion is true and that my religion entails that those being don't exist.

Why when the Bible says they do?
TheAsylum
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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5/29/2012 3:48:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

The statement "la ilaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah" immediately rules out other gods.

If Allah exists no other Gods exist
Allah exists
therefore no other gods exist

It is impossible for Allah to exist and other gods to exist. That is my point
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/29/2012 3:52:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:44:12 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:42:28 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:39:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to three." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

No.

Why? Isn't that a negative statement about the existence of something?

No, it's not. You are asserting that in this world, 3 is a distinct number from 5. That is a positive statement.

I fixed my post on page 1. The new statement was:

"The current world does not exist such that three is equal to eight."

If you're saying this is a positive statement simply because it can be arranged to mean:

"The current world does exist such that three is not equal to eight."

Then all you're essentially doing is rearranging it to make this a positive statement about the existence of said world, which raises an obvious question of why this should be exclusive to this situation.

Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?
Does that mean that we should accept that they exist?

The conclusion is that the burden of proof is on the Theists; they must prove that God exists. Atheists have no burden of proof because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist.

What about the above mathematical example?
See above

Back at you.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:52:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:47:21 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:44:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Rusty, do you believe in Santa?

Showing me to be a hypocrite doesn't refute my argument. Please stay on track. Is my statement a negative one or isn't it- and if so, why not?

Please see the previous response. You are just rewording a positive statement into a negative one. That tactic fails because we have to logically untangle the statement before we analyze it, and it just turns into a positive statement again.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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5/29/2012 3:53:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:47:34 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Why when the Bible says they do?

They don't as defined in the context of those religions. If you maintain that they're...I dunno, whatever you think they are, demons or fallen angels or whatever, then they aren't what those religions say. Which means that insofar as we're talking about what those religions being true entails, those beings don't exist if Christianity is true.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/29/2012 3:54:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:52:49 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:47:21 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:44:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Rusty, do you believe in Santa?

Showing me to be a hypocrite doesn't refute my argument. Please stay on track. Is my statement a negative one or isn't it- and if so, why not?

Please see the previous response. You are just rewording a positive statement into a negative one. That tactic fails because we have to logically untangle the statement before we analyze it, and it just turns into a positive statement again.

Why do debate such things and talk about them? When God does not exist? Why do need reassurance of that?
TheAsylum
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:54:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:52:25 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:44:12 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:42:28 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:39:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:37:30 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:33:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:31:27 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Is "three isn't equal to five." a negative statement?

I am specifically discussing negative statements about whether or not something exists.

Okay. Does "The current world does not exist such that three is equal to three." fit the bill? I know almost nothing about this semantic stuff.

No.

Why? Isn't that a negative statement about the existence of something?

No, it's not. You are asserting that in this world, 3 is a distinct number from 5. That is a positive statement.

I fixed my post on page 1. The new statement was:

"The current world does not exist such that three is equal to eight."

If you're saying this is a positive statement simply because it can be arranged to mean:

"The current world does exist such that three is not equal to eight."

Then all you're essentially doing is rearranging it to make this a positive statement about the existence of said world, which raises an obvious question of why this should be exclusive to this situation.

Adding a qualifier does not change the fact that the basis of the proof is the positive statement. When we untangle the logic in order to analyze the argument, it is still a positive arrangement.
Please prove that these gods do not exist.

I don't think I can. What conclusion follows from this?
Does that mean that we should accept that they exist?

The conclusion is that the burden of proof is on the Theists; they must prove that God exists. Atheists have no burden of proof because it is impossible to prove that something does not exist.

What about the above mathematical example?
See above

Back at you.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/29/2012 3:55:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:52:49 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:47:21 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:44:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Rusty, do you believe in Santa?

Showing me to be a hypocrite doesn't refute my argument. Please stay on track. Is my statement a negative one or isn't it- and if so, why not?

Please see the previous response. You are just rewording a positive statement into a negative one. That tactic fails because we have to logically untangle the statement before we analyze it, and it just turns into a positive statement again.

I think that was his point.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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5/29/2012 3:56:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:53:35 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:47:34 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Why when the Bible says they do?

They don't as defined in the context of those religions. If you maintain that they're...I dunno, whatever you think they are, demons or fallen angels or whatever, then they aren't what those religions say. Which means that insofar as we're talking about what those religions being true entails, those beings don't exist if Christianity is true.

What you said is untrue and fallious. They are real and demons. People worshipp them as strongly as my God. Throughout the Bible these worshipped demons are talked about over, over, over, over, over, and over again. If you are not up on your scripture and its meaning then do not claim as such.
TheAsylum
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:56:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:55:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:52:49 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:47:21 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/29/2012 3:44:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Rusty, do you believe in Santa?

Showing me to be a hypocrite doesn't refute my argument. Please stay on track. Is my statement a negative one or isn't it- and if so, why not?

Please see the previous response. You are just rewording a positive statement into a negative one. That tactic fails because we have to logically untangle the statement before we analyze it, and it just turns into a positive statement again.

I think that was his point.

His point really doesn't make sense. The heart of his proof, after we untangle his logic, is a positive assertion. The heart of my claim will always be a negative presumption.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:57:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:46:16 PM, Kinesis wrote:
Hmm. Were I a theist, I would respond that I have strong evidence that my religion is true and that my religion entails that those being don't exist.

So there is no independent proof that those beings do not exist, correct?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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5/29/2012 3:58:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
A reference back to their religion does not cover their tracks because their religion does not prove that the beings do not exist. At best, it asserts it.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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5/29/2012 3:59:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 3:28:58 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Please prove that Athena, Quetzalcoatl, and Thoth do not exist.

Athena was in the genre context of legend as well as the others.

Also, out of all the lore told about them we have no evidence left behind. Whereas on Christianity at least we do, namely the universe's origin, objective moral values & duties, the fine-tuning of the universe, the immediate experience enjoyed by so many Christians, and the origin of Christian faith against every predisposition to the contrary.