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Calvinism Question #2

stubs
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5/29/2012 6:50:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've been doing a lot of researching Calvinism and I do agree with some of it. One thing that I have been thinking about is if people are just elected by God, why evangelize? The people that are elect will be saved anyways right? If anyone knows an answer to this please share it with me. Thank you.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 7:15:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 6:50:48 PM, stubs wrote:
I've been doing a lot of researching Calvinism and I do agree with some of it. One thing that I have been thinking about is if people are just elected by God, why evangelize? The people that are elect will be saved anyways right? If anyone knows an answer to this please share it with me. Thank you.


Once you've been set free from the Law, everything is a matter of sanctification, and since we know not who is saved and who isn't (we might think some are cause the profess Christ, but only God and them know) we can be an instrument of God will in helping those realize their faith.

I am a huge proponent of "realized" faith as opposed to "coming to" faith.

1 Corinthians 10:23-33
The Believer's Freedom

23 "I have the right to do anything," you say—but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person's conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God — 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Now, this is not to be confused with our actions saving others, but simply to help others either unaware of their salvation, or aware and lacking in their sanctification.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
ScottyDouglas
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5/29/2012 7:20:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I agree God knows all and knows the elect. We do not and they do not so it is our purpose to witness. To bring the ones who will come to Christ, who havent yet. And to prevent the works of the devil.
TheAsylum
stubs
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5/29/2012 7:24:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:20:07 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I agree God knows all and knows the elect. We do not and they do not so it is our purpose to witness. To bring the ones who will come to Christ, who havent yet. And to prevent the works of the devil.

But they will be saved if they are elect regardless of whether you evangelize to them right?
stubs
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5/29/2012 7:25:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:15:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


I am a huge proponent of "realized" faith as opposed to "coming to" faith.


Why does it matter if they realize their faith? They will be saved anyways if they are elect right?
ScottyDouglas
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5/29/2012 7:39:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:25:05 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 7:15:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


I am a huge proponent of "realized" faith as opposed to "coming to" faith.


Why does it matter if they realize their faith? They will be saved anyways if they are elect right?

That true. They will. But you can not know that. And you are neglecting them if you refuse to witness to them not to mention neglecting the will of God. Jesus command us to witness and teach. This is are primary goal in this life. To witness for the kingdom of the Lord.
TheAsylum
stubs
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5/29/2012 7:44:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:39:23 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

That true. They will. But you can not know that. And you are neglecting them if you refuse to witness to them not to mention neglecting the will of God. Jesus command us to witness and teach. This is are primary goal in this life. To witness for the kingdom of the Lord.

What's it matter if we know anything? Those that are elect will go to heaven no matter if we know anything right? Yeah I agree Jesus wants us to witness. I just don't see how witnessing makes sense given the Calvinistic worldview.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 7:51:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:25:05 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 7:15:58 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


I am a huge proponent of "realized" faith as opposed to "coming to" faith.


Why does it matter if they realize their faith? They will be saved anyways if they are elect right?


Yes, all elect are saved; However, faith is a sign of the elect, so if they have no faith in Christ, they have no election.

They've been elected TO faith. Get it?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 7:53:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:44:43 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 7:39:23 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

That true. They will. But you can not know that. And you are neglecting them if you refuse to witness to them not to mention neglecting the will of God. Jesus command us to witness and teach. This is are primary goal in this life. To witness for the kingdom of the Lord.

What's it matter if we know anything? Those that are elect will go to heaven no matter if we know anything right? Yeah I agree Jesus wants us to witness. I just don't see how witnessing makes sense given the Calvinistic worldview.


Lol, not so.. If you do not know Christ, it's because God didn't chose you to know him AKA you were not elected.

You are assuming that election means God picks, and the people who were picked could know Christ, and other's couldn't.. i have no idea how you came to that conlcusion, since it clearly says in John 3:16 that all who believe in Christ will be saved.

The belief in Christ is the gift of God's election.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:00:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:53:52 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Lol, not so.. If you do not know Christ, it's because God didn't chose you to know him AKA you were not elected.

You are assuming that election means God picks, and the people who were picked could know Christ, and other's couldn't.. i have no idea how you came to that conlcusion, since it clearly says in John 3:16 that all who believe in Christ will be saved.

The belief in Christ is the gift of God's election.

Yeah I think all who believe in Christ will be saved. That's the same reason why I think that everyone that ever existed had a chance to go to heaven. That's the main place I differ with Calvinism.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:01:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 7:53:52 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Lol, not so.. If you do not know Christ, it's because God didn't chose you to know him AKA you were not elected.

You are assuming that election means God picks, and the people who were picked could know Christ, and other's couldn't.. i have no idea how you came to that conlcusion, since it clearly says in John 3:16 that all who believe in Christ will be saved.

The belief in Christ is the gift of God's election.

And that still doesn't answer why it makes sense for a Calvinist to evangelize.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 8:04:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:00:13 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 7:53:52 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Lol, not so.. If you do not know Christ, it's because God didn't chose you to know him AKA you were not elected.

You are assuming that election means God picks, and the people who were picked could know Christ, and other's couldn't.. i have no idea how you came to that conlcusion, since it clearly says in John 3:16 that all who believe in Christ will be saved.

The belief in Christ is the gift of God's election.

Yeah I think all who believe in Christ will be saved. That's the same reason why I think that everyone that ever existed had a chance to go to heaven. That's the main place I differ with Calvinism.


Well if you're basing you theology on what you think is right vs. what scripture says, then you need to pray and God to bring you humility.

God created some people with no other purpose than his own(same for the elect) and that purpose results in Hell.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 8:06:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:01:06 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 7:53:52 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Lol, not so.. If you do not know Christ, it's because God didn't chose you to know him AKA you were not elected.

You are assuming that election means God picks, and the people who were picked could know Christ, and other's couldn't.. i have no idea how you came to that conlcusion, since it clearly says in John 3:16 that all who believe in Christ will be saved.

The belief in Christ is the gift of God's election.

And that still doesn't answer why it makes sense for a Calvinist to evangelize.


Preaching the gospel can be helpful.. like i mentioned above, it's not to save others, it's to help fish out those whose are chosen. Helping the weaker brothers and sisters.

Sanctification not Justification.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:10:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:04:59 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Well if you're basing you theology on what you think is right vs. what scripture says, then you need to pray and God to bring you humility.


I said I think that all who believe in Christ will be saved and that is also backed by scripture.

God created some people with no other purpose than his own(same for the elect) and that purpose results in Hell.

That's a position I don't see supported by scripture.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:12:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:06:23 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Preaching the gospel can be helpful.. like i mentioned above, it's not to save others, it's to help fish out those whose are chosen. Helping the weaker brothers and sisters.

Sanctification not Justification.

Then why would Jesus tell us to go make disciples if evangelizing isn't to save others. Why would we need to fish out those who are chose? They will be saved anyways if they are elect.
Rusty
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5/29/2012 8:12:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:10:28 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:04:59 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Well if you're basing you theology on what you think is right vs. what scripture says, then you need to pray and God to bring you humility.


I said I think that all who believe in Christ will be saved and that is also backed by scripture.

God created some people with no other purpose than his own(same for the elect) and that purpose results in Hell.

That's a position I don't see supported by scripture.

That's because you're so depraved that you're distorting the Bible, bro. ;)
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:18:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:12:59 PM, Rusty wrote:

That's because you're so depraved that you're distorting the Bible, bro. ;)

I do see that we are made for Gods purpose. Personally, in scripture, I don't see God creating people with no chance of getting to heaven. I'm always open to the possibility that I could be wrong. I'm wrong all the time. I just haven't seen any scripture showing that is true.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 8:19:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:10:28 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:04:59 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Well if you're basing you theology on what you think is right vs. what scripture says, then you need to pray and God to bring you humility.


I said I think that all who believe in Christ will be saved and that is also backed by scripture.

God created some people with no other purpose than his own(same for the elect) and that purpose results in Hell.

That's a position I don't see supported by scripture.


Romans 9:14-33

Very clearly says he chooses some as objects of mercy, and some as objects of wrath.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:24:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:19:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Romans 9:14-33

Very clearly says he chooses some as objects of mercy, and some as objects of wrath.

So in your opinion someone like Pharaoh, mentioned in the scripture you provided, had no chance at ever getting to heaven?
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 8:25:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:12:43 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:06:23 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Preaching the gospel can be helpful.. like i mentioned above, it's not to save others, it's to help fish out those whose are chosen. Helping the weaker brothers and sisters.

Sanctification not Justification.

Then why would Jesus tell us to go make disciples if evangelizing isn't to save others. Why would we need to fish out those who are chose? They will be saved anyways if they are elect.


Once again, Sanctification vs Justification.

You do know the difference, right?

You miss the point by asserting that it isn't needed, so why do it. You do not know who is saved and who isn't. The Gospel is only intended for his elect, and only God knows when they will realize it. It is our duty to help our brothers and sisters, because we could be an instrument in their understanding.

It very well could be predestined that I speak to some guy at the bar, and the holy spirit open's is eye's through my preaching of the Gospel.

I don't take credit, because i did not die for his sins, or bring him a realization, i simply acted as a vessel of God's purpose.

Their justification was made sure before the begining of time; their/our sanctification is an everlasting process here on earth, and is for our benefit to learn and grow while we are here. Preaching the Gospel is a way to help God's elect grow in knowledge of God and his promises to us.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 8:27:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:24:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:19:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


Romans 9:14-33

Very clearly says he chooses some as objects of mercy, and some as objects of wrath.

So in your opinion someone like Pharaoh, mentioned in the scripture you provided, had no chance at ever getting to heaven?


You can say opinion if it makes you feel better, but I don't see how you can dispute the scripture.. it's pretty plain dude..

He had 0 chance of being elect.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:41:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:27:40 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


You can say opinion if it makes you feel better, but I don't see how you can dispute the scripture.. it's pretty plain dude..

He had 0 chance of being elect.

I would agree that he had no chance of getting to heaven because God, in his infinite wisdom, knew Pharaoh would not want to follow him. In my opinion (and yes I call it my opinion because no matter how much I study the scripture I will never fully understand it) I see verses that say God chose us and I see verses that say we chose God. I think it's both. I think it's a combination that we will never fully understand. I like 1 John 12:13 because I think it shows this well, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 8:51:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:41:19 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:27:40 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


You can say opinion if it makes you feel better, but I don't see how you can dispute the scripture.. it's pretty plain dude..

He had 0 chance of being elect.

I would agree that he had no chance of getting to heaven because God, in his infinite wisdom, knew Pharaoh would not want to follow him. In my opinion (and yes I call it my opinion because no matter how much I study the scripture I will never fully understand it) I see verses that say God chose us and I see verses that say we chose God. I think it's both. I think it's a combination that we will never fully understand. I like 1 John 12:13 because I think it shows this well, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."


I think that dangerousy close to accepting credit for something you had no part in..

Once again, read Romans 9 or Ephesians 1.

Check the "talk show" portion of this website.. you may have heard of it, but these guy's know there stuff and might be able to answer some of your questions..

http://www.whitehorseinn.org...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/29/2012 8:56:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:51:43 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

I think that dangerousy close to accepting credit for something you had no part in..


Can you please tell me what I said that wasn't biblical or tell me where my interpretation of the verse I used was wrong?

Once again, read Romans 9 or Ephesians 1.


It would be not good to just read those. We must read the scripture in its entirety and then get our theology.
tyler90az
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5/29/2012 9:17:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The thing is God does know everything that will happen. The best explanation I have heard is in Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He states in his book that God is not in time. Think of a timeline, we are on the line, God is not. He can jump anywhere he wants and also be in many places simultaneously.

That also does not negate that fact that we still have to exercise our free will. Think of us knowing we will get a college degree if we complete the required classes. Even know we have the knowledge that we will have the degree, we still have to take the classes. Just like God knows, by the way we exercise our free agency, rather we will go to live with him again.

However, despite his omniscience, we still have to exercise our free will. God and Jesus Christ do not create us and play eenie meenie miney mo. That does not seem like the God I read about in the Bible. A loving God, in my mind, would give everybody a chance. Which I testify that God does give everyone a chance, we first must let him in though.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
SuburbiaSurvivor
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5/29/2012 11:08:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm a little new to the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, but it seems that Calvinism really doesn't make any sense. Why give human beings free will if their relationship with you wasn't going to be based on their choices anyway?
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
Rusty
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5/29/2012 11:13:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 11:08:09 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I'm a little new to the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, but it seems that Calvinism really doesn't make any sense. Why give human beings free will if their relationship with you wasn't going to be based on their choices anyway?

inb4 Romans 9
Paradox_7
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5/29/2012 11:22:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 8:56:19 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/29/2012 8:51:43 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

I think that dangerousy close to accepting credit for something you had no part in..


Can you please tell me what I said that wasn't biblical or tell me where my interpretation of the verse I used was wrong?

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

This is an endorsement to what I've been saying..

We received him, because our faith was given to us. We believed in him because God placed it in us... not of the flesh or will of man. It was God's will that we were chosen, and God's will that we are saved.

There is no free-will, but the will to sin.

Once again, read Romans 9 or Ephesians 1.


It would be not good to just read those. We must read the scripture in its entirety and then get our theology.


I agree, and there are dozens of other passages that scream this truth as well; however, i believe these 2, be the most plain and informal.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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5/30/2012 7:13:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 11:08:09 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
I'm a little new to the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, but it seems that Calvinism really doesn't make any sense. Why give human beings free will if their relationship with you wasn't going to be based on their choices anyway?

This is the same with me. I haven't been studying it that long. I don't like that the 5 points of Calvinism were in response to the 5 points of Arminianism, because that's a horrible way to do theology haha, but nonetheless I do agree with a lot of Calvinistic ideas. I just ask questions about the ones I'm not so sure about so a lot of people think I'm totally opposed to Calvinism. Which, I don't care at all if people think that, but it's not true haha. Calvansim doesn't hold to free will I don't believe.
stubs
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5/30/2012 7:24:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 5/29/2012 11:22:15 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

This is an endorsement to what I've been saying..

We received him, because our faith was given to us. We believed in him because God placed it in us... not of the flesh or will of man. It was God's will that we were chosen, and God's will that we are saved.


Yeah I agree that here John is reminding us of the nature of the new birth: it is God's sovereign gift to man, not man's achievement. I don't think there is anything we need to do in order to get to heaven besides put our full trust in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Again I think this verse points to my view of we choose God and God chooses us. It says that those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. We believed, and he gave us the right to become children of God which we did not deserve.

There is no free-will, but the will to sin.


Why didn't God make us with the will to do good instead of sin?