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Why Reincarnation Is Hell

royalpaladin
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6/3/2012 7:33:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've just been studying religion for fun over the past few days, and something in particular caught my eye while I was reading about Sikhism.

In Sikhism, the concept of Maya notes that the current world that we live in is filled with vices (ego, anger, greed, attachment, and lust) that distract our minds from God. The human mind attaches onto these materialistic things when we are young, and our goal is to detach ourselves from these things since they only impart the illusion of happiness and to reattach ourselves to God. Those who follow the Guru's path and actively pursue enlightenment will ultimately achieve union with God, while those who do not will undergo a transmigration process (literally your soul in transferred through every form of life because other life forms are immersed in the five evils. Elephants, for example, are immersed in lust) and will be granted a second chance when they are reborn in human form.

I was doing research into Christian reincarnation, an idea held by the earliest Christians as evidenced by the Gospel of Thomas and other works that predate the current Gospels and were suppressed at Nicea, and I noticed that not only does Sikhism mirror Christianity on a philosophical plane if we accept Thomistic ideas as true, but that reincarnation also makes sense from a Christian perspective. The concept of Original Sin notes that all humans are attracted to sin by nature and that in order to achieve salvation, we must act through Christ, detach ourselves from materialism, and accept God's grace. Those who achieve Enlightenment are saved, and those who do not are reincarnated. The natural state of man, then, is a state in which God is absent. Many people argue Hell is just an absence of God. In this model, reincarnation makes sense because it describes the world's state. If our natural state includes an absence of God and we must strive to become a devotee of God, then it makes sense that we would be reincarnate as a punishment because we would be immersed in our world, the world of suffering and materialism, again. It thus makes sense from a punishment perspective. It also co-opts universalism to an extent because each soul is given more chances to be saved.It takes into account the idea of a loving God because God is giving us as many chances as we need to repent and achieve salvation; instead of eternally punishing us for misdeeds, he is giving us the opportunity to learn from our mistakes and become good people. It eliminates the Problem of Evil because our natural state becomes one in which God is absent and we must actively strive to return to his grace. Just as parents cannot help their children truly succeed by walking them through life, so too does God help us reform ourselves by allowing suffering to flourish in our world.

Thoughts?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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6/3/2012 11:25:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
What is the need for life then?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/3/2012 11:50:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
We have the Holy Ghost who is always present, that is God. We had Jesus manifest in the flesh who is God. I think God is very hands on.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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6/3/2012 11:53:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
KJV-R (Webster) Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
TheAsylum
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 11:56:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 11:53:18 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
KJV-R (Webster) Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Ideas of reincarnation predate Luke and John. The Gospel of Thomas predates all of the other Gospels.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 11:59:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 11:53:18 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
KJV-R (Webster) Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

I'm not even sure that this passage refutes reincarnation. It references bodies and not souls, which are immaterial.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/3/2012 12:00:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Ideas of reincarnation predate Luke and John. The Gospel of Thomas predates all of the other Gospels.

And your reasining that Thomas's gospel is valid?
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/3/2012 12:02:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not even sure that this passage refutes reincarnation. It references bodies and not souls, which are immaterial.

No you assume that they are immaterial. We will have glorified bodies. And people in hell will feel pain.
TheAsylum
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:14:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:02:05 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
I'm not even sure that this passage refutes reincarnation. It references bodies and not souls, which are immaterial.

No you assume that they are immaterial. We will have glorified bodies. And people in hell will feel pain.

I am not "assuming" that souls are immaterial. That's a fact, lol
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:14:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:00:23 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Ideas of reincarnation predate Luke and John. The Gospel of Thomas predates all of the other Gospels.

And your reasining that Thomas's gospel is valid?

It is older than the other gospels and thus is more likely to be in line with Jesus' teachings.
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/3/2012 12:16:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is older than the other gospels and thus is more likely to be in line with Jesus' teachings.

And your reason for thinking this? When it is not the typical practice for christians.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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6/3/2012 12:17:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

And your proof?
TheAsylum
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:20:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:16:01 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
It is older than the other gospels and thus is more likely to be in line with Jesus' teachings.

And your reason for thinking this? When it is not the typical practice for christians.

The "typical practice" was changed at Nicea. .
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:21:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:17:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

And your proof?

Luke references Hades, the name for the Greek god of the Underworld as well as the god's kingdom
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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6/3/2012 12:32:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:21:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:17:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

And your proof?

Luke references Hades, the name for the Greek god of the Underworld as well as the god's kingdom

http://www.nizkor.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:36:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:32:03 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:21:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:17:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

And your proof?

Luke references Hades, the name for the Greek god of the Underworld as well as the god's kingdom

http://www.nizkor.org...

Do you have any proof that Hades was independently derived in Christian thought?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:38:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In fact, it's well known that Christianity (after Nicea) co-opted many of the pagan festivals, like Easter (pagan fertility festival) and Christmas (Saturnalia).
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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6/3/2012 12:40:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:38:22 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
In fact, it's well known that Christianity (after Nicea) co-opted many of the pagan festivals, like Easter (pagan fertility festival) and Christmas (Saturnalia).

They did it so they would have holidays, and to draw people away from the pagan ones.

Worked pretty well obviously.
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Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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6/3/2012 12:40:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:36:01 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:32:03 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:21:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:17:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

And your proof?

Luke references Hades, the name for the Greek god of the Underworld as well as the god's kingdom

http://www.nizkor.org...

Do you have any proof that Hades was independently derived in Christian thought?

No, but what chapter and verse. I would like to know.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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6/3/2012 12:42:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

Or maybe God did explain it to them, and he merely used it as a example for it?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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6/3/2012 12:45:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:42:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

Now you are committing the fallacy of false cause especially to the Quran. Can you please explain to me the exact origins of the Quran and where it 'borrowed' and 'stole' all the ideas in it. I want to here your response. There is no plausible natural explanation for the origins of the Quran today.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:50:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:40:54 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:36:01 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:32:03 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:21:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:17:20 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

And your proof?

Luke references Hades, the name for the Greek god of the Underworld as well as the god's kingdom

http://www.nizkor.org...

Do you have any proof that Hades was independently derived in Christian thought?

No, but what chapter and verse. I would like to know.

http://www.openbible.info...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:50:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:42:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

Or maybe God did explain it to them, and he merely used it as a example for it?

Um, God did not dictate the Bible.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:51:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:40:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:38:22 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
In fact, it's well known that Christianity (after Nicea) co-opted many of the pagan festivals, like Easter (pagan fertility festival) and Christmas (Saturnalia).

They did it so they would have holidays, and to draw people away from the pagan ones.

Worked pretty well obviously.

I'm not going to go into the ethics of it or what it proves about Christianity. My point was that Early Christianity is distinct from Modern Christianity.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 12:54:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:45:32 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:42:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

Now you are committing the fallacy of false cause especially to the Quran. Can you please explain to me the exact origins of the Quran and where it 'borrowed' and 'stole' all the ideas in it. I want to here your response. There is no plausible natural explanation for the origins of the Quran today.

I was not discussing the Quaran at all, although it does draw elements from Arabian paganism as well as Judaism and Christianity.
Ahmed.M
Posts: 616
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6/3/2012 1:08:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 12:54:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:45:32 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:42:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

Now you are committing the fallacy of false cause especially to the Quran. Can you please explain to me the exact origins of the Quran and where it 'borrowed' and 'stole' all the ideas in it. I want to here your response. There is no plausible natural explanation for the origins of the Quran today.

I was not discussing the Quaran at all, although it does draw elements from Arabian paganism as well as Judaism and Christianity.

Where did it get the Christian and Jewish knowledge from?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/3/2012 1:14:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/3/2012 1:08:10 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:54:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:45:32 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:42:36 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 6/3/2012 12:15:46 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
The idea of a permanent Hell is derived from Greek Mythology.

Now you are committing the fallacy of false cause especially to the Quran. Can you please explain to me the exact origins of the Quran and where it 'borrowed' and 'stole' all the ideas in it. I want to here your response. There is no plausible natural explanation for the origins of the Quran today.

I was not discussing the Quaran at all, although it does draw elements from Arabian paganism as well as Judaism and Christianity.

Where did it get the Christian and Jewish knowledge from?

From Christian and Jewish works (Bible/Torah)