Total Posts:29|Showing Posts:1-29
Jump to topic:

Why christianity cannot be god's true way

bhatti1020
Posts: 216
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 10:29:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
FIRST OF ALL!!! please, dont turn around and say well how can you believe Islam is accurate or reliable ?? this isnt a thread about Islam. We can do that one after this. These are some reasons that I think show Christianity has been changed from its original pure versions (which muslims believe was the word of God) so much that it suprises me how many bright christians who question everything will for some reason believe in this .

1. Theres no one authorative Bible. While I admit the old testament has been relatively well preserved, the new testament seems to change alot. Theres 8 main versions throughout history. Eight... How can that be God's word?

2. Christianity copies of other religions. They adapted their religion to be more appealing to romans. They also copied off egyptian religions
http://www.youtube.com...

3. The Bible has been written down by different people over a period of around a thousand years. Anyone who believes that a story can remain the same needs their head examined.

Ill add more as this thread goes on.
-Tourism & Immigration minister for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
"hey, no Jerry springer here!"
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 11:05:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/5/2012 10:29:38 AM, bhatti1020 wrote:
FIRST OF ALL!!! please, dont turn around and say well how can you believe Islam is accurate or reliable ?? this isnt a thread about Islam. We can do that one after this. These are some reasons that I think show Christianity has been changed from its original pure versions (which muslims believe was the word of God) so much that it suprises me how many bright christians who question everything will for some reason believe in this .

1. Theres no one authorative Bible. While I admit the old testament has been relatively well preserved, the new testament seems to change alot. Theres 8 main versions throughout history. Eight... How can that be God's word?


Sources please? Never heard this argument before.

2. Christianity copies of other religions. They adapted their religion to be more appealing to romans. They also copied off egyptian religions
http://www.youtube.com...


While I disagree this seems to be a false cause fallacy. I'm not that big into philosophical fallacies but this seems to be it.

3. The Bible has been written down by different people over a period of around a thousand years. Anyone who believes that a story can remain the same needs their head examined.


Of the about 6000 Greek manuscripts we have they are 99.5% consistent with no major doctrines in jeopardy.

Ill add more as this thread goes on.
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 11:25:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/5/2012 11:05:32 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/5/2012 10:29:38 AM, bhatti1020 wrote:
FIRST OF ALL!!! please, dont turn around and say well how can you believe Islam is accurate or reliable ?? this isnt a thread about Islam. We can do that one after this. These are some reasons that I think show Christianity has been changed from its original pure versions (which muslims believe was the word of God) so much that it suprises me how many bright christians who question everything will for some reason believe in this .

1. Theres no one authorative Bible. While I admit the old testament has been relatively well preserved, the new testament seems to change alot. Theres 8 main versions throughout history. Eight... How can that be God's word?


Sources please? Never heard this argument before.

2. Christianity copies of other religions. They adapted their religion to be more appealing to romans. They also copied off egyptian religions
http://www.youtube.com...


While I disagree this seems to be a false cause fallacy. I'm not that big into philosophical fallacies but this seems to be it.

3. The Bible has been written down by different people over a period of around a thousand years. Anyone who believes that a story can remain the same needs their head examined.


Of the about 6000 Greek manuscripts we have they are 99.5% consistent with no major doctrines in jeopardy.

Ill add more as this thread goes on.

That's because Christianity copying off of other religions is an unsubstantiated myth. Additionally, Islam copied off of Christianity, Judaism, and some paganistic religions.
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 1:53:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/5/2012 10:29:38 AM, bhatti1020 wrote:
FIRST OF ALL!!! please, dont turn around and say well how can you believe Islam is accurate or reliable ?? this isnt a thread about Islam. We can do that one after this. These are some reasons that I think show Christianity has been changed from its original pure versions (which muslims believe was the word of God) so much that it suprises me how many bright christians who question everything will for some reason believe in this .

1. Theres no one authorative Bible. While I admit the old testament has been relatively well preserved, the new testament seems to change alot. Theres 8 main versions throughout history. Eight... How can that be God's word?

Do you mean interpretations/translations? You will have to be more clear and cite a source.


2. Christianity copies of other religions. They adapted their religion to be more appealing to romans. They also copied off egyptian religions
http://www.youtube.com...

You will need to cite an academic source that gives quanititative verifiable examples rather than spurious correllations or similarities.

Additionally, you will have to show why the OTHER religion is NOT merely a copy of Judaic thought which is traced to antiquity.


3. The Bible has been written down by different people over a period of around a thousand years. Anyone who believes that a story can remain the same needs their head examined.

This was addressed by a Nestorian monk who was captured by a Turkish Sultan in 1250 A.D. I would love to find a link on it.

The Sultan stated to the captured monk, "Your religion is known to be false as the book has been changed countless times throughout history. It is a fraudulent book."

The monk said to the Sultan "If someone were to come to you and claim to be a Muslim and provide a Quran that was not your own, what would you do?"

The Sultan replied - "We would reject it, burn it ."

The monk nodded his head "And we would do much the same. Christianity spread across the world for centuries in many isolated geographical locations, and now Islam for centuries has split Christianity in half. Yet on both sides of your empire we have the same book. If changing the Bible had happened, we have not found one different book. All of this you yourself may verify by searching separate ends of your Kingdom!"


Ill add more as this thread goes on.
WriterDave
Posts: 934
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 2:05:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

This was addressed by a Nestorian monk who was captured by a Turkish Sultan in 1250 A.D. I would love to find a link on it.

The Sultan stated to the captured monk, "Your religion is known to be false as the book has been changed countless times throughout history. It is a fraudulent book."

The monk said to the Sultan "If someone were to come to you and claim to be a Muslim and provide a Quran that was not your own, what would you do?"

The Sultan replied - "We would reject it, burn it ."

The monk nodded his head "And we would do much the same. Christianity spread across the world for centuries in many isolated geographical locations, and now Islam for centuries has split Christianity in half. Yet on both sides of your empire we have the same book. If changing the Bible had happened, we have not found one different book. All of this you yourself may verify by searching separate ends of your Kingdom!"


The whole "if you step out of line we'll kill you" thing helped. For both religions.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

Edit To Civilize, with FAQs: http://bit.ly...
Insult Ownership: http://bit.ly...
Haters: http://bit.ly...

"I said you are a fake, a phony, and a fraud, but that doesn't mean I think you're putting on an act." --Innomen
Gileandos
Posts: 2,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 4:16:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/5/2012 2:05:03 PM, WriterDave wrote:

This was addressed by a Nestorian monk who was captured by a Turkish Sultan in 1250 A.D. I would love to find a link on it.

The Sultan stated to the captured monk, "Your religion is known to be false as the book has been changed countless times throughout history. It is a fraudulent book."

The monk said to the Sultan "If someone were to come to you and claim to be a Muslim and provide a Quran that was not your own, what would you do?"

The Sultan replied - "We would reject it, burn it ."

The monk nodded his head "And we would do much the same. Christianity spread across the world for centuries in many isolated geographical locations, and now Islam for centuries has split Christianity in half. Yet on both sides of your empire we have the same book. If changing the Bible had happened, we have not found one different book. All of this you yourself may verify by searching separate ends of your Kingdom!"


The whole "if you step out of line we'll kill you" thing helped. For both religions.

That was not relevant.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/5/2012 4:28:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/5/2012 2:05:03 PM, WriterDave wrote:

This was addressed by a Nestorian monk who was captured by a Turkish Sultan in 1250 A.D. I would love to find a link on it.

The Sultan stated to the captured monk, "Your religion is known to be false as the book has been changed countless times throughout history. It is a fraudulent book."

The monk said to the Sultan "If someone were to come to you and claim to be a Muslim and provide a Quran that was not your own, what would you do?"

The Sultan replied - "We would reject it, burn it ."

The monk nodded his head "And we would do much the same. Christianity spread across the world for centuries in many isolated geographical locations, and now Islam for centuries has split Christianity in half. Yet on both sides of your empire we have the same book. If changing the Bible had happened, we have not found one different book. All of this you yourself may verify by searching separate ends of your Kingdom!"


The whole "if you step out of line we'll kill you" thing helped. For both religions.


Lol.. it's less of, "if you step out of line we'll kill u", and, more of "you do step out of line, so you deserve to be killed."
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 10:18:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

This argument fails horribly, as it assumes that God can do wrong and would want to change His mind. He did it right the first time so there's no need for Him to do it differently, or change His mind. It doesn't prove that He doesn't have the ability to change His mind.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 10:19:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrelevant, this doesn't change the fact that god can't change his mind Whether he wan't to or not. This means he is very limited as a being. It also implies that god has never had to change his mind before, meaning he has never cared about anyone's prayers, he knew all along adam and eve would betray him even before he went and created satan and let him convince them to eat from the tree before they knew it would be wrong to do so etc.

And that is definitely not the only reason to change one's mind. Unless god was a computer.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 10:41:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 10:19:39 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrelevant, this doesn't change the fact that god can't change his mind Whether he wan't to or not. This means he is very limited as a being. It also implies that god has never had to change his mind before, meaning he has never cared about anyone's prayers, he knew all along adam and eve would betray him even before he went and created satan and let him convince them to eat from the tree before they knew it would be wrong to do so etc.


And that is definitely not the only reason to change one's mind. Unless god was a computer.

It's not at all irrelevant. If He has never had to change His mind, then how do you know that He can't?? That's just a pre-assumption on your part. Not needing to do something doesn't prove that one doesn't have the ability to do something. I've never needed to wear a bra, but that doesn't mean that I don't have the ability to put one on if I chose to do so. For this argument to work, you need to prove that God saw a need to change His mind, but was unable to do so.

It's not that God doesn't care about our prayers, but He sees the bigger picture. Things happen for a reason, though we may not understand what that reason could be.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 10:59:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrellevant, that god doesn't want or need to change his mind doesn't change the fact that he can't, even if he wanted to. This would also imply that god has never cared about anyone's prayers and knew adam and eve would betray him even before he created the snake that he knew would tell them to eat from the tree which would give them the knowledge that they were doing something wrong. Hmm..

Also that is definitely not the only reason for god to change his mind. Unless he was a computer.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 11:05:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 10:41:19 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 10:19:39 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrelevant, this doesn't change the fact that god can't change his mind Whether he wan't to or not. This means he is very limited as a being. It also implies that god has never had to change his mind before, meaning he has never cared about anyone's prayers, he knew all along adam and eve would betray him even before he went and created satan and let him convince them to eat from the tree before they knew it would be wrong to do so etc.


And that is definitely not the only reason to change one's mind. Unless god was a computer.

It's not at all irrelevant. If He has never had to change His mind, then how do you know that He can't?? That's just a pre-assumption on your part.

Read the first post, that's how I know he can't because he would have to forfeit one of the characteristics you attribute to him.

Not needing to do something doesn't prove that one doesn't have the ability to do something. I've never needed to wear a bra, but that doesn't mean that I don't have the ability to put one on if I chose to do so.

Agreed...

For this argument to work, you need to prove that God saw a need to change His mind, but was unable to do so.

Or I could just demonstrate that it would be logically impossible for god to change his mind and still be both omnipotent and omniscient. Which, I did.


It's not that God doesn't care about our prayers, but He sees the bigger picture. Things happen for a reason, though we may not understand what that reason could be.

"That's just a pre-assumption on your part." Good luck trying to prove this one.

Sorry for the (almost) duplicate comment for some reason the original wasn't showing so I re-wrote it.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 11:28:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 10:59:49 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrellevant, that god doesn't want or need to change his mind doesn't change the fact that he can't, even if he wanted to.

It's not irrelevant, it's critical to your argument. You must show that God saw a need to change His mind, and tried but failed. Right now, all your argument proves is that He hasn't changed His mind yet. Your argument, in no way, demonstrates a lack of ABILITY, and that is the key to making your argument work.

This would also imply that god has never cared about anyone's prayers

My kids never recieved everything they asked for. Does that mean that I don't care about them?? Of course not.

and knew adam and eve would betray him even before he created the snake that he knew would tell them to eat from the tree which would give them the knowledge that they were doing something wrong. Hmm..

Yes??

Also that is definitely not the only reason for god to change his mind. Unless he was a computer.

YOU may think that He needed to change His mind but apparently He doesn't see things the same way you do.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 11:46:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 11:28:06 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 10:59:49 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrellevant, that god doesn't want or need to change his mind doesn't change the fact that he can't, even if he wanted to.

It's not irrelevant, it's critical to your argument. You must show that God saw a need to change His mind, and tried but failed. Right now, all your argument proves is that He hasn't changed His mind yet. Your argument, in no way, demonstrates a lack of ABILITY, and that is the key to making your argument work.

Actually that is exactly what my argument does demonstrate and I haven't seen you correctly state how exactly it is invalid.
I'll try and put it in different words. He doesn't actually need to change his mind for it to be logically incoherent, allow me to demonstrate.
God knows with absolute certainty that he will cook bacon. He is now ALREADY unable to not cook bacon without forfeiting his omniscience meaning I have just found something GOD CANNOT DO. note no changing of mind had taken place. Sure he could not want to not cook bacon, but this doesn't change the fact that HE CAN'T.

See my above reply: I don't need to check every unopened letter in the whole world to know with certainty that on none of them is there a square circle. this is a priori not a posteriori
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 1:12:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/5/2012 10:29:38 AM, bhatti1020 wrote:
FIRST OF ALL!!! please, dont turn around and say well how can you believe Islam is accurate or reliable ?? this isnt a thread about Islam. We can do that one after this. These are some reasons that I think show Christianity has been changed from its original pure versions (which muslims believe was the word of God) so much that it suprises me how many bright christians who question everything will for some reason believe in this .

1. Theres no one authorative Bible. While I admit the old testament has been relatively well preserved, the new testament seems to change alot. Theres 8 main versions throughout history. Eight... How can that be God's word?

Source please.

2. Christianity copies of other religions. They adapted their religion to be more appealing to romans. They also copied off egyptian religions
http://www.youtube.com...

I don't think the similarity is great enough to say that one was copied from another. One could easily see this as happening by chance. There need to be stronger similarities.

3. The Bible has been written down by different people over a period of around a thousand years. Anyone who believes that a story can remain the same needs their head examined.

Ill add more as this thread goes on.

Yes, a story can remain the same. Write it down and then copy that story over and over. Also, God could ensure that this story is not corrupted.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 1:29:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1) If God raised Christ from the dead, then Christ's claims would be vindicated
2) Christ taught that whatever the scriptures teach is the authority
3) God raised Christ from the dead
4) God vindicated that the bible is the authority
4) Therefore, the bible is the authority

^ Something like that...

Meanwhile, the Koran denies that Christ was even crucified!
But the crucifixion of Christ is one of the best attested facts in all of history.
So at least the Koran can be ruled out as being authoritative for external reasons.

Granted many things in the bible can be ruled out for external reasons, like a young earth, etc. But remember what I said, that the bible is authoritative on what it teaches, if it wasn't teaching a literal 6 day creation, then there's no problem.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 2:07:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 1:12:35 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 6/5/2012 10:29:38 AM, bhatti1020 wrote:
FIRST OF ALL!!! please, dont turn around and say well how can you believe Islam is accurate or reliable ?? this isnt a thread about Islam. We can do that one after this. These are some reasons that I think show Christianity has been changed from its original pure versions (which muslims believe was the word of God) so much that it suprises me how many bright christians who question everything will for some reason believe in this .

1. Theres no one authorative Bible. While I admit the old testament has been relatively well preserved, the new testament seems to change alot. Theres 8 main versions throughout history. Eight... How can that be God's word?

Source please.
There's quite a bit of evidence, just google it. These scholars have found 'thousands'
http://www.nola.com...
and here's a list of 300.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

2. Christianity copies of other religions. They adapted their religion to be more appealing to romans. They also copied off egyptian religions
http://www.youtube.com...

I don't think the similarity is great enough to say that one was copied from another. One could easily see this as happening by chance. There need to be stronger similarities.
The fact that no-one knows when christ was born but they just said december 25th because there was already a Roman deity worshipped on that day and it was easier for the Romans is not by chance. Come on.
3. The Bible has been written down by different people over a period of around a thousand years. Anyone who believes that a story can remain the same needs their head examined.

Ill add more as this thread goes on.

Yes, a story can remain the same. Write it down and then copy that story over and over. Also, God could ensure that this story is not corrupted.

Then why is there direct evidence of it changing. It was written by hundreds (probably) of people over thousands of years in many different languages. And, since then it has copied from copies which were made from copies in different languages to the original copies. Even the fact that so many different varieties of Christianity that all interpret the bible in different ways and that there are other holy books with similar events to the bible should be evidence enough that god has ensured that the story is not corrupted. Don't be so naive
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 2:13:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 1:29:00 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
1) If God raised Christ from the dead, then Christ's claims would be vindicated
2) Christ taught that whatever the scriptures teach is the authority
3) God raised Christ from the dead
4) God vindicated that the bible is the authority
4) Therefore, the bible is the authority

^ Something like that...

Meanwhile, the Koran denies that Christ was even crucified!
But the crucifixion of Christ is one of the best attested facts in all of history.
So at least the Koran can be ruled out as being authoritative for external reasons.

Granted many things in the bible can be ruled out for external reasons, like a young earth, etc. But remember what I said, that the bible is authoritative on what it teaches, if it wasn't teaching a literal 6 day creation, then there's no problem.

"best attested facts in all of history" haha thanks for that, I needed a good chuckle

You would be complete wrong in even calling that a "fact". Again, I am not even going to try and defend myself; the burden of proof is on you, and, unfortunately, you have no proof. I will say that hundreds of people in the bible have been resurrected so even if I granted christ's resurrection you are no closer to proving he is the son of god.
Clash
Posts: 220
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 2:45:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 1:29:00 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
1) If God raised Christ from the dead, then Christ's claims would be vindicated
2) Christ taught that whatever the scriptures teach is the authority
3) God raised Christ from the dead
4) God vindicated that the bible is the authority
4) Therefore, the bible is the authority

^ Something like that...

Meanwhile, the Koran denies that Christ was even crucified!
But the crucifixion of Christ is one of the best attested facts in all of history.
So at least the Koran can be ruled out as being authoritative for external reasons.

Granted many things in the bible can be ruled out for external reasons, like a young earth, etc. But remember what I said, that the bible is authoritative on what it teaches, if it wasn't teaching a literal 6 day creation, then there's no problem.

Reason, it's true that the Quran denies that Christ was crucified. According to the Quran, someone was definitively crucified. However, this someone was not Jesus. Rather, it was someone who looked exactly like Jesus. This happened by God saving Jesus and taking him up to himself, and then make another person look like Jesus. This person was caught and crucified, and this is the person which people at that time and must people in this time believes was actually Jesus himself. Indeed, this could happened, and to say that God could not have done this easily, is absurd since God is omnipotent.

And BTW, it's 'The Quran', not 'The Koran'.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 4:04:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 2:45:56 PM, Clash wrote:
At 6/10/2012 1:29:00 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
1) If God raised Christ from the dead, then Christ's claims would be vindicated
2) Christ taught that whatever the scriptures teach is the authority
3) God raised Christ from the dead
4) God vindicated that the bible is the authority
4) Therefore, the bible is the authority

^ Something like that...

Meanwhile, the Koran denies that Christ was even crucified!
But the crucifixion of Christ is one of the best attested facts in all of history.
So at least the Koran can be ruled out as being authoritative for external reasons.

Granted many things in the bible can be ruled out for external reasons, like a young earth, etc. But remember what I said, that the bible is authoritative on what it teaches, if it wasn't teaching a literal 6 day creation, then there's no problem.

Reason, it's true that the Quran denies that Christ was crucified. According to the Quran, someone was definitively crucified. However, this someone was not Jesus.

Yeah, that simply flies in the face of historical consensus.

Rather, it was someone who looked exactly like Jesus.

A hypothesis really only worthy of ridicule to be honest. Not to mention the Koran, as it's often transliterated, is a very late source as compared to the pre-Markan passion tradition.

I see no hope for your argument there bud.

This happened by God saving Jesus and taking him up to himself, and then make another person look like Jesus. This person was caught and crucified, and this is the person which people at that time and must people in this time believes was actually Jesus himself. Indeed, this could happened, and to say that God could not have done this easily, is absurd since God is omnipotent.

All that's missing is 12 blue dwarves and a sleeping lady. Listen, your account doesn't lack mythological development like the account I have (Mark). Also you account appears just blanatly ad hoc whereas Mark is starkly simple.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 11:46:08 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 11:28:06 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 10:59:49 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrellevant, that god doesn't want or need to change his mind doesn't change the fact that he can't, even if he wanted to.

It's not irrelevant, it's critical to your argument. You must show that God saw a need to change His mind, and tried but failed. Right now, all your argument proves is that He hasn't changed His mind yet. Your argument, in no way, demonstrates a lack of ABILITY, and that is the key to making your argument work.

Actually that is exactly what my argument does demonstrate and I haven't seen you correctly state how exactly it is invalid.
I'll try and put it in different words. He doesn't actually need to change his mind for it to be logically incoherent, allow me to demonstrate.

Yes He does, because if there is no need then you cannot prove lack of ability. It's just simply YOU saying that He can't do it.

God knows with absolute certainty that he will cook bacon. He is now ALREADY unable to not cook bacon without forfeiting his omniscience meaning I have just found something GOD CANNOT DO. note no changing of mind had taken place. Sure he could not want to not cook bacon, but this doesn't change the fact that HE CAN'T.

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

See my above reply: I don't need to check every unopened letter in the whole world to know with certainty that on none of them is there a square circle. this is a priori not a posteriori
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2012 11:34:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 11:46:08 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 11:28:06 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/10/2012 10:59:49 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:33:29 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 8:16:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
It's much easier than this:

1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. (from 2) god knows that actions that he will make in the future (eg god knows that he is going to part the red sea.
C. God is therefore unable to not part the red sea because he knows with infallible certainty that he will. If he does manage to find a way not to part the red sea then he was mistaken in thinking that he would, meaning that he's not omniscient.

So god is actually the most limited being in the universe and has no power over his actions.

The only reason to change ones mind is because you could acquire some sort of new reasoning. Since God is all knowing, he obviously could not acquire new reasons for doing something because he is already all knowing. The only reason to change ones mind is ignorance.

A bit irrellevant, that god doesn't want or need to change his mind doesn't change the fact that he can't, even if he wanted to.

It's not irrelevant, it's critical to your argument. You must show that God saw a need to change His mind, and tried but failed. Right now, all your argument proves is that He hasn't changed His mind yet. Your argument, in no way, demonstrates a lack of ABILITY, and that is the key to making your argument work.

Actually that is exactly what my argument does demonstrate and I haven't seen you correctly state how exactly it is invalid.
I'll try and put it in different words. He doesn't actually need to change his mind for it to be logically incoherent, allow me to demonstrate.

Yes He does, because if there is no need then you cannot prove lack of ability. It's just simply YOU saying that He can't do it.

God knows with absolute certainty that he will cook bacon. He is now ALREADY unable to not cook bacon without forfeiting his omniscience meaning I have just found something GOD CANNOT DO. note no changing of mind had taken place. Sure he could not want to not cook bacon, but this doesn't change the fact that HE CAN'T.

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

Ok this is beginning to get frustrating. You're not getting it. I'm not saying god can't cook bacon in general, I'm saying that he knew he was going to do a specific action at a specific time. That 'happening', such as a one off event like parting the red sea is not the same as "the ability to part the red sea". It does not matter that he was not parting the red sea before (even though the fact that he knew with INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY that he was not going to part the red sea until 6pm, means that it would be impossible from him to part the red sea at 4pm because he would have been wrong thinking that he was going to do it at 6). God's future is essentially predetermined. Even if he completely wanted to part the red sea at 6pm and had no reason to change his mind he would still not be able to. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THINKING HE WOULD.

See my above reply: I don't need to check every unopened letter in the whole world to know with certainty that on none of them is there a square circle. this is a priori not a posteriori
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 9:21:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/11/2012 11:34:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM, medic0506 wrote:

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

Ok this is beginning to get frustrating. You're not getting it. I'm not saying god can't cook bacon in general, I'm saying that he knew he was going to do a specific action at a specific time. That 'happening', such as a one off event like parting the red sea is not the same as "the ability to part the red sea". It does not matter that he was not parting the red sea before (even though the fact that he knew with INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY that he was not going to part the red sea until 6pm, means that it would be impossible from him to part the red sea at 4pm because he would have been wrong thinking that he was going to do it at 6). God's future is essentially predetermined. Even if he completely wanted to part the red sea at 6pm and had no reason to change his mind he would still not be able to. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THINKING HE WOULD.

Susej, I understand your frustration, but I assure you that I get the point you're trying to make. I think your frustration comes in trying to force a conclusion that does not follow from your premises.

P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist.

You see, your conclusion does not follow from your premises. There is something missing. Simply saying that He hasn't changed His mind, or won't change His mind, does not prove that He doesn't have the ability to do so. He is perfect and His will is perfect, so why would He even need the ability to change His mind anyway?? That's like saying that He is perfect and incapable of making a wrong choice, so that proves that He can't be omnipotent, thus can't exist. The argument is simply illogical.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2012 9:56:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/12/2012 9:21:31 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 11:34:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM, medic0506 wrote:

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

Ok this is beginning to get frustrating. You're not getting it. I'm not saying god can't cook bacon in general, I'm saying that he knew he was going to do a specific action at a specific time. That 'happening', such as a one off event like parting the red sea is not the same as "the ability to part the red sea". It does not matter that he was not parting the red sea before (even though the fact that he knew with INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY that he was not going to part the red sea until 6pm, means that it would be impossible from him to part the red sea at 4pm because he would have been wrong thinking that he was going to do it at 6). God's future is essentially predetermined. Even if he completely wanted to part the red sea at 6pm and had no reason to change his mind he would still not be able to. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THINKING HE WOULD.

Susej, I understand your frustration, but I assure you that I get the point you're trying to make. I think your frustration comes in trying to force a conclusion that does not follow from your premises.

P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist.

You see, your conclusion does not follow from your premises. There is something missing. Simply saying that He hasn't changed His mind, or won't change His mind, does not prove that He doesn't have the ability to do so. He is perfect and His will is perfect, so why would He even need the ability to change His mind anyway?? That's like saying that He is perfect and incapable of making a wrong choice, so that proves that He can't be omnipotent, thus can't exist. The argument is simply illogical.

Wow. Great job at utterly fabricating my argument and not paying any attention to the last 5 messages. This is not what I am saying.

But I give up. Have fun with your strawmans.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2012 9:04:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/12/2012 9:56:31 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/12/2012 9:21:31 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 11:34:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM, medic0506 wrote:

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

Ok this is beginning to get frustrating. You're not getting it. I'm not saying god can't cook bacon in general, I'm saying that he knew he was going to do a specific action at a specific time. That 'happening', such as a one off event like parting the red sea is not the same as "the ability to part the red sea". It does not matter that he was not parting the red sea before (even though the fact that he knew with INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY that he was not going to part the red sea until 6pm, means that it would be impossible from him to part the red sea at 4pm because he would have been wrong thinking that he was going to do it at 6). God's future is essentially predetermined. Even if he completely wanted to part the red sea at 6pm and had no reason to change his mind he would still not be able to. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THINKING HE WOULD.

Susej, I understand your frustration, but I assure you that I get the point you're trying to make. I think your frustration comes in trying to force a conclusion that does not follow from your premises.

P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist.

You see, your conclusion does not follow from your premises. There is something missing. Simply saying that He hasn't changed His mind, or won't change His mind, does not prove that He doesn't have the ability to do so. He is perfect and His will is perfect, so why would He even need the ability to change His mind anyway?? That's like saying that He is perfect and incapable of making a wrong choice, so that proves that He can't be omnipotent, thus can't exist. The argument is simply illogical.

Wow. Great job at utterly fabricating my argument and not paying any attention to the last 5 messages. This is not what I am saying.

But I give up. Have fun with your strawmans.

What part is a strawman?? I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to see why your argument fails, but you give up too easily.
Susej12
Posts: 17
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2012 9:52:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 9:04:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/12/2012 9:56:31 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/12/2012 9:21:31 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 11:34:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM, medic0506 wrote:

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

Ok this is beginning to get frustrating. You're not getting it. I'm not saying god can't cook bacon in general, I'm saying that he knew he was going to do a specific action at a specific time. That 'happening', such as a one off event like parting the red sea is not the same as "the ability to part the red sea". It does not matter that he was not parting the red sea before (even though the fact that he knew with INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY that he was not going to part the red sea until 6pm, means that it would be impossible from him to part the red sea at 4pm because he would have been wrong thinking that he was going to do it at 6). God's future is essentially predetermined. Even if he completely wanted to part the red sea at 6pm and had no reason to change his mind he would still not be able to. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THINKING HE WOULD.

Susej, I understand your frustration, but I assure you that I get the point you're trying to make. I think your frustration comes in trying to force a conclusion that does not follow from your premises.

P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist.

You see, your conclusion does not follow from your premises. There is something missing. Simply saying that He hasn't changed His mind, or won't change His mind, does not prove that He doesn't have the ability to do so. He is perfect and His will is perfect, so why would He even need the ability to change His mind anyway?? That's like saying that He is perfect and incapable of making a wrong choice, so that proves that He can't be omnipotent, thus can't exist. The argument is simply illogical.

Wow. Great job at utterly fabricating my argument and not paying any attention to the last 5 messages. This is not what I am saying.

But I give up. Have fun with your strawmans.

What part is a strawman?? I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to see why your argument fails, but you give up too easily.

at what point did I say this:

"P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist."


Never.
I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to see why your refutation fails. Maybe you're too good at lying to yourself.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2012 10:23:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 9:52:19 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 9:04:16 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/12/2012 9:56:31 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/12/2012 9:21:31 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 11:34:43 AM, Susej12 wrote:
At 6/11/2012 12:29:20 AM, medic0506 wrote:

Ok, what was God doing before He started cooking the bacon?? Right, He was NOT COOKING BACON, so He does have the ability to not cook bacon if He chooses. The fact that He begins to cook it at say, 7:00am, means that there is a reason for it being cooked then, and He chooses to do it. Once again your argument fails because you can't show lack of ability.

Ok this is beginning to get frustrating. You're not getting it. I'm not saying god can't cook bacon in general, I'm saying that he knew he was going to do a specific action at a specific time. That 'happening', such as a one off event like parting the red sea is not the same as "the ability to part the red sea". It does not matter that he was not parting the red sea before (even though the fact that he knew with INFALLIBLE CERTAINTY that he was not going to part the red sea until 6pm, means that it would be impossible from him to part the red sea at 4pm because he would have been wrong thinking that he was going to do it at 6). God's future is essentially predetermined. Even if he completely wanted to part the red sea at 6pm and had no reason to change his mind he would still not be able to. BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG IN THINKING HE WOULD.

Susej, I understand your frustration, but I assure you that I get the point you're trying to make. I think your frustration comes in trying to force a conclusion that does not follow from your premises.

P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist.

You see, your conclusion does not follow from your premises. There is something missing. Simply saying that He hasn't changed His mind, or won't change His mind, does not prove that He doesn't have the ability to do so. He is perfect and His will is perfect, so why would He even need the ability to change His mind anyway?? That's like saying that He is perfect and incapable of making a wrong choice, so that proves that He can't be omnipotent, thus can't exist. The argument is simply illogical.

Wow. Great job at utterly fabricating my argument and not paying any attention to the last 5 messages. This is not what I am saying.

But I give up. Have fun with your strawmans.

What part is a strawman?? I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to see why your argument fails, but you give up too easily.

at what point did I say this:

"P1: The Christian God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
P2: The Christian God does not (has not, will not, etc.) change His mind.
Conclusion: The Christian God does not have the power to change His mind, so He can not exist."


Never.
I'm not sure why it's so difficult for you to see why your refutation fails. Maybe you're too good at lying to yourself.

If you aren't considering God's perfection, then it is you who is strawmanning the argument away from what we believe God to be. Aside from that, I'm not sure what your problem could be with the syllogism. Perhaps you could lay your argument out in syllogism form.