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Theists have Worse Values

twocupcakes
Posts: 2,764
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6/7/2012 5:45:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Bible/many religious texts claim that non-believers go to hell, while believers go to heaven. This idea causes some cognitive dissonance. On one hand, it seems that belief is no reason to punish/reward someone. On the other hand, people should follow the rules of the Bible. People who value Justice greatly, will reject this idea of punishment/reward. People who place greater weight on values such as "following the rules", "being accepted" or maybe others, will be drawn to this heaven hell idea. One cannot value justice greatly and condone this. One whose Justice is their top value will reject the idea of heaven/hell based on belief.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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6/7/2012 5:57:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 5:45:09 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
The Bible/many religious texts claim that non-believers go to hell, while believers go to heaven. This idea causes some cognitive dissonance. On one hand, it seems that belief is no reason to punish/reward someone. On the other hand, people should follow the rules of the Bible. People who value Justice greatly, will reject this idea of punishment/reward. People who place greater weight on values such as "following the rules", "being accepted" or maybe others, will be drawn to this heaven hell idea. One cannot value justice greatly and condone this. One whose Justice is their top value will reject the idea of heaven/hell based on belief.

What about those massive religions which teach reincarnation?
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 5:57:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Who has the warped value on justice? You who says that even though you do not follow the law you deserve reward. Rewards are for those who did right and was just in thier acts not the opposite.
TheAsylum
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,764
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6/7/2012 6:25:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 5:57:13 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Who has the warped value on justice? You who says that even though you do not follow the law you deserve reward. Rewards are for those who did right and was just in thier acts not the opposite.

Yes. People should be judged by their actions, not for worshiping a ruler. In a job, someone should not get promoted for sucking up to his boss or get fired for not sucking up. If promotions were given out to whoever, sucks up to the boss, this would not be fair? If a dictator/ruler punished those who rejected him and rewarded those who worshiped him, these punishments rewards are not fair. People should be judged on merit. Like in life, people should not be judged if they worship God, but on their character and valor of their actions.

It seems people who follow the Judeo-Christian God are people who value "following the rules" or perhaps something else over Justice. Justice is not as important to them. People who value Justice reject this idea.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/7/2012 6:40:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe rape is wrong because it harms the other person, and as a person myself, I feel for them because of sympathy and empathy because we are all in the same boat. Theists believe rape is wrong because God says so and they believe goodness is simply in his nature.

It seems one of these views actually deals with morality on a real level, and the other one intellectually pawns it off to an authority.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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6/7/2012 7:12:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 6:25:15 PM, twocupcakes wrote:

Yes. People should be judged by their actions, not for worshiping a ruler.

"Worshiping a ruler" is an action. lol
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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6/7/2012 7:28:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 5:45:09 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
The Bible/many religious texts claim that non-believers go to hell, while believers go to heaven. This idea causes some cognitive dissonance. On one hand, it seems that belief is no reason to punish/reward someone. On the other hand, people should follow the rules of the Bible. People who value Justice greatly, will reject this idea of punishment/reward. People who place greater weight on values such as "following the rules", "being accepted" or maybe others, will be drawn to this heaven hell idea. One cannot value justice greatly and condone this. One whose Justice is their top value will reject the idea of heaven/hell based on belief.

That would be a problem if belief in God were the only prerequisite for an eternity with God. The scripture says that even the demons believe in God & shutter, what then?

Rather it seems to be how a person chooses their own life & how they morally live it. Will the seek self-forming Goods in an unjust way? Or will they seek self-forming Goods in a just way? How do they go about getting happiness; is it satisfaction based, or commitment based?

Even if a person chooses satisfaction based, recognizes it & decides to repent, and strive for a justly commitment based self-forming Good way of life, it appears God prefers this type of person just as this type of person prefers God, or the Good.

If this is true, then that means the doors of hell are barred shut from the inside, a people replete with any wanting of God. Meanwhile those commitment-based selves in heaven enjoy God as he enjoys them.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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6/7/2012 7:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 6:25:45 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
What about those massive religions which teach reincarnation?

I meant just the Judeo-Christian God.

Then say that. I mean there are so many religious beliefs out there...
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 7:47:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 6:25:15 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
At 6/7/2012 5:57:13 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Who has the warped value on justice? You who says that even though you do not follow the law you deserve reward. Rewards are for those who did right and was just in thier acts not the opposite.

Yes. People should be judged by their actions, not for worshiping a ruler. In a job, someone should not get promoted for sucking up to his boss or get fired for not sucking up. If promotions were given out to whoever, sucks up to the boss, this would not be fair? If a dictator/ruler punished those who rejected him and rewarded those who worshiped him, these punishments rewards are not fair. People should be judged on merit. Like in life, people should not be judged if they worship God, but on their character and valor of their actions.

It seems people who follow the Judeo-Christian God are people who value "following the rules" or perhaps something else over Justice. Justice is not as important to them. People who value Justice reject this idea.

The employer would reward those who do there job for the employer!
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 7:49:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 6:40:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I believe rape is wrong because it harms the other person, and as a person myself, I feel for them because of sympathy and empathy because we are all in the same boat. Theists believe rape is wrong because God says so and they believe goodness is simply in his nature.

It seems one of these views actually deals with morality on a real level, and the other one intellectually pawns it off to an authority.

God raped someone? Or did God know man would do those things? Would you want God to just destroy everyone? Wait, He did. And will again, just not by water!
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked. I do not need God to know I am. I feel I am about things I do all day. Maybe alot more than others cause I got God. But we all deserve death. Today we do not fulfill the Law on one another because Jesus completely fulfilled it by dying on the cross. That was our creator sacrificing himself in fleah as a man as witness for his love. A Pure God dying for you.
TheAsylum
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/7/2012 8:06:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

yes, even the children.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/7/2012 8:08:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:06:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

yes, even the children.

also... even if they didn't deserve it.. what's it matter? they won't go to hell.. they'll either go to Purgatory and then heaven.. or heaven direct..

So... Might as well kill them.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 8:16:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

Do you not inherit youe fathers genes? And your mothers?
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 8:18:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

What we are debating is do we have the right to say that God had no reason or prior knowledge to decide to destroy generations of people who would have pulled Israel diliberately away from God.
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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6/7/2012 8:19:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:08:31 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:06:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

yes, even the children.

also... even if they didn't deserve it.. what's it matter? they won't go to hell.. they'll either go to Purgatory and then heaven.. or heaven direct..

So... Might as well kill them.

There's nothing in the bible that show kids were actually slaughtered. This was typical ANE lingo for taking over a town, etc. But in fact, archeological finding have shown that first, the towns were gradually inhabited rather than a hostile take over. Second, and more importantly, only the military fortresses show a rapid take over!

At most this calls into question biblical interpretation. The bible is inerrant on what it teaches, if it's telling a story of Jewish politics, well first it's descriptive & not prescriptive, and second this isn't a normative command even if it's from God! It was consequential.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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6/7/2012 8:21:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:16:25 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

Do you not inherit youe fathers genes? And your mothers?

Yeah, I do. What are you getting at?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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6/7/2012 8:28:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:21:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:16:25 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

Do you not inherit youe fathers genes? And your mothers?

Yeah, I do. What are you getting at?

Prolly about to say sins of the father type stuff... meh- not the right approach.
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/7/2012 8:57:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Reason, shall I explain, or shall you?
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 8:58:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:21:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:16:25 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

Do you not inherit youe fathers genes? And your mothers?

Yeah, I do. What are you getting at?

These people would inherit the same traits that made thier father and mothers do what they did thereofre brofre contaminating the stock of Israel the were killed. The ones who was not like these were saved and brough into the Israeli stock. I fail to see how any captives in any battle of Israel was mis-treated.
TheAsylum
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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6/7/2012 9:34:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 8:58:35 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:21:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:16:25 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

Do you not inherit youe fathers genes? And your mothers?

Yeah, I do. What are you getting at?

These people would inherit the same traits that made thier father and mothers do what they did thereofre brofre contaminating the stock of Israel the were killed. The ones who was not like these were saved and brough into the Israeli stock. I fail to see how any captives in any battle of Israel was mis-treated.

...oh my Lord.

Seriously....wow. Just wow.

Do you know what herem warfare is?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 9:51:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 9:34:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:58:35 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:21:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 8:16:25 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:58:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 6/7/2012 7:54:46 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
People who did these things described in the Bible that was destroyed deserved to be :destroyed. God did it over and over cause we are wicked.

Even the children?

Do you not inherit youe fathers genes? And your mothers?

Yeah, I do. What are you getting at?

These people would inherit the same traits that made thier father and mothers do what they did thereofre brofre contaminating the stock of Israel the were killed. The ones who was not like these were saved and brough into the Israeli stock. I fail to see how any captives in any battle of Israel was mis-treated.

...oh my Lord.

Seriously....wow. Just wow.

Do you know what herem warfare is?

Should I? You think about how people were back then. It isnt like God is not trying to teach but compared to the people arpund doing theses horrible things to others esp their own citizens. I think God did what was just compared to the people of that day and time. I think the issue here in these cases is that people do not reconize how depraved they become and how useless they have become to God. It easy to say God is a moral monster when you can sit back and be depraved and then condemn God for fighting fire with fire. God took his people and destroyed a evil people and thier seed so thier evil will not be passed on to future generations. And if God di that all the time then I think we all be dead. God did not interfer with these things until his people feel in this and he judged them and the people who caused it.
TheAsylum