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Are Atheist's Closet Theists?

Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

For example, the theist who gives reasons for believing in God admits there is a higher authority than the conclusion itself, namely the reasons, criteria & logical relations along with certain background assumptions of the argument, which are epistemically God-level in order to have the supervisory authority to arbitrate the issue of whether or not God exists.

By the same token, the argued denial of the existence of God does the same thing. It's a problem for both atheism and theism, but resolvable only by theism.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.
vbaculum
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6/7/2012 10:26:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

For example, the theist who gives reasons for believing in God admits there is a higher authority than the conclusion itself, namely the reasons, criteria & logical relations along with certain background assumptions of the argument, which are epistemically God-level in order to have the supervisory authority to arbitrate the issue of whether or not God exists.

By the same token, the argued denial of the existence of God does the same thing. It's a problem for both atheism and theism, but resolvable only by theism.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

When you say "a God-level assumption", do you mean "a Yahweh-level assumption". Are we talking about Yahweh here?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

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Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 10:27:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:26:13 PM, vbaculum wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

For example, the theist who gives reasons for believing in God admits there is a higher authority than the conclusion itself, namely the reasons, criteria & logical relations along with certain background assumptions of the argument, which are epistemically God-level in order to have the supervisory authority to arbitrate the issue of whether or not God exists.

By the same token, the argued denial of the existence of God does the same thing. It's a problem for both atheism and theism, but resolvable only by theism.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

When you say "a God-level assumption", do you mean "a Yahweh-level assumption". Are we talking about Yahweh here?

Most likely, yes- Let's just say a maximally great being.
ScottyDouglas
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6/7/2012 10:39:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

Im very skeptical over this Biblical God would be bringing objections to theism but objections give examples of fallibility. So God would not have fallibility or deceive. But God has allowed satan to run rampant and he has. I would argue satan has caused this objections of fallibility and that God has gave him rope to do such. God not only holds satan subdued but gives him enough rope to constantly test the faith of faithful believers. Cause to be honest how much test does he have to give to a non-believer the have did his job for them. And because of this they are with him and are constantly pushing satanism will being cloaked in science, evolution, and freedom.
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 10:44:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:39:36 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

Im very skeptical over this Biblical God would be bringing objections to theism but objections give examples of fallibility. So God would not have fallibility or deceive. But God has allowed satan to run rampant and he has. I would argue satan has caused this objections of fallibility and that God has gave him rope to do such. God not only holds satan subdued but gives him enough rope to constantly test the faith of faithful believers. Cause to be honest how much test does he have to give to a non-believer the have did his job for them. And because of this they are with him and are constantly pushing satanism will being cloaked in science, evolution, and freedom.

Scotty, too much metaphysical excess for the discussion I want. Your comments would be helpful in a bible study perhaps, but this is more philosophically based.
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 10:46:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:39:36 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

Im very skeptical over this Biblical God would be bringing objections to theism but objections give examples of fallibility. So God would not have fallibility or deceive. But God has allowed satan to run rampant and he has. I would argue satan has caused this objections of fallibility and that God has gave him rope to do such. God not only holds satan subdued but gives him enough rope to constantly test the faith of faithful believers. Cause to be honest how much test does he have to give to a non-believer the have did his job for them. And because of this they are with him and are constantly pushing satanism will being cloaked in science, evolution, and freedom.

Also, ... ^seriously?!
ScottyDouglas
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6/7/2012 10:47:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:44:16 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:39:36 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

Im very skeptical over this Biblical God would be bringing objections to theism but objections give examples of fallibility. So God would not have fallibility or deceive. But God has allowed satan to run rampant and he has. I would argue satan has caused this objections of fallibility and that God has gave him rope to do such. God not only holds satan subdued but gives him enough rope to constantly test the faith of faithful believers. Cause to be honest how much test does he have to give to a non-believer the have did his job for them. And because of this they are with him and are constantly pushing satanism will being cloaked in science, evolution, and freedom.

Scotty, too much metaphysical excess for the discussion I want. Your comments would be helpful in a bible study perhaps, but this is more philosophically based.

True!(`;')
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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6/7/2012 10:49:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:46:21 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:39:36 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:20:52 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
My friend's though went this way,

All reasoned objections to theism presume a God-level assumption, which is left unmentioned.

But I'll mention it as an 'Ultimate Authority' over the objector's thinking... an Ultimate Authority that the objections were supposed to challenge for theism in the first place.

*Now I'm a theist but I'm skeptical over his argument. I just can't at the moment pick out what I find touble-some.

Im very skeptical over this Biblical God would be bringing objections to theism but objections give examples of fallibility. So God would not have fallibility or deceive. But God has allowed satan to run rampant and he has. I would argue satan has caused this objections of fallibility and that God has gave him rope to do such. God not only holds satan subdued but gives him enough rope to constantly test the faith of faithful believers. Cause to be honest how much test does he have to give to a non-believer the have did his job for them. And because of this they are with him and are constantly pushing satanism will being cloaked in science, evolution, and freedom.

Also, ... ^seriously?!

Seriously! This isnt everybody of course. You are Christian you know the devil works everywhere.
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 10:52:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, ... ^seriously?!

Seriously! This isnt everybody of course. You are Christian you know the devil works everywhere.

I'm also a scientist who takes evolution seriously, as well as a student of philosophy who affirms a libertarian freedom of the will.

My views regarding Satan is this; I'm methodologically agnostic.
ScottyDouglas
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6/7/2012 10:56:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:52:31 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
Also, ... ^seriously?!

Seriously! This isnt everybody of course. You are Christian you know the devil works everywhere.

I'm also a scientist who takes evolution seriously, as well as a student of philosophy who affirms a libertarian freedom of the will.

My views regarding Satan is this; I'm methodologically agnostic.

What type of Christianity do you believe then? Im curious not trying to be confrontational. Im basic(most basic) belief is; Be saved; Accept Jesus; have faith in the Bible and Jesus; And believe with your heart and soul. I believe in hell but not a typical hell. I know we are outside the metaphysical and because of that we do not know and all we got is Biblical writings and examples in our world of metaphysical means.
TheAsylum
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
THEBOMB
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6/7/2012 10:57:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

I'm just waiting for some of the atheists to see this...
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 10:58:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

Ladies & gents we have the Rustla's stamp of jimmie rustling!!
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/7/2012 11:01:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:58:21 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

Ladies & gents we have the Rustla's stamp of jimmie rustling!!

This whole thread has the Jimmie Rustla stamp of approval!

*Waits for atheists, who will most assuredly come, and unleash their atheistic wrath upon our ignorant theist heads*
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
ScottyDouglas
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6/7/2012 11:05:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

Ladies & gents we have the Rustla's stamp of jimmie rustling!!

This whole thread has the Jimmie Rustla stamp of approval!

*Waits for atheists, who will most assuredly come, and unleash their atheistic wrath upon our ignorant theist heads*

Hiliarious!=0
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 11:06:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:56:34 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:52:31 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
Also, ... ^seriously?!

Seriously! This isnt everybody of course. You are Christian you know the devil works everywhere.

I'm also a scientist who takes evolution seriously, as well as a student of philosophy who affirms a libertarian freedom of the will.

My views regarding Satan is this; I'm methodologically agnostic.

What type of Christianity do you believe then? Im curious not trying to be confrontational. Im basic(most basic) belief is; Be saved; Accept Jesus; have faith in the Bible and Jesus; And believe with your heart and soul. I believe in hell but not a typical hell. I know we are outside the metaphysical and because of that we do not know and all we got is Biblical writings and examples in our world of metaphysical means.

Same as you bro, I'm saved by Christ filled with the Holy Spirit. But ultimately I think belief is a by-product of a relationship with God. And belief in other things like a literal Genesis account, certain interpretations, doctrines. Those take hindsight.

Belief really, beliefs aren't paramount. Rather existential preference is paramount:

It seems to me that the way a person lives their life (commitment-based, or satisfaction-based) & who they live it for (God-committed or self-satisfied) thoroughly determines their eternal life.
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 11:07:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:01:09 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:58:21 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

Ladies & gents we have the Rustla's stamp of jimmie rustling!!

This whole thread has the Jimmie Rustla stamp of approval!

*Waits for atheists, who will most assuredly come, and unleash their atheistic wrath upon our ignorant theist heads*

I think I have goose-pimples
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
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6/7/2012 11:08:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:07:06 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 11:01:09 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:58:21 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

Ladies & gents we have the Rustla's stamp of jimmie rustling!!

This whole thread has the Jimmie Rustla stamp of approval!

*Waits for atheists, who will most assuredly come, and unleash their atheistic wrath upon our ignorant theist heads*

I think I have goose-pimples

*goose-bumps
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/7/2012 11:08:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:06:29 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:34 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:52:31 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
Also, ... ^seriously?!

Seriously! This isnt everybody of course. You are Christian you know the devil works everywhere.

I'm also a scientist who takes evolution seriously, as well as a student of philosophy who affirms a libertarian freedom of the will.

My views regarding Satan is this; I'm methodologically agnostic.

What type of Christianity do you believe then? Im curious not trying to be confrontational. Im basic(most basic) belief is; Be saved; Accept Jesus; have faith in the Bible and Jesus; And believe with your heart and soul. I believe in hell but not a typical hell. I know we are outside the metaphysical and because of that we do not know and all we got is Biblical writings and examples in our world of metaphysical means.

Same as you bro, I'm saved by Christ filled with the Holy Spirit. But ultimately I think belief is a by-product of a relationship with God. And belief in other things like a literal Genesis account, certain interpretations, doctrines. Those take hindsight.

Belief really, beliefs aren't paramount. Rather existential preference is paramount:

It seems to me that the way a person lives their life (commitment-based, or satisfaction-based) & who they live it for (God-committed or self-satisfied) thoroughly determines their eternal life.

^That is right, Buddy! I agree!+3
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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6/7/2012 11:10:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

I appreciate your comments. I see'em alot!
TheAsylum
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 11:15:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In preparation for the Atheist Armada, and upon further review of the argument at hand, it seems to me that the argument is critical:

One in where the epistemic termination points are the basic principles of logic, general rationality (which includes logic of course), definitional constants, and background assumptions such as:

1) that inquiry has value
2) that one ought to think one way (logically, for example) rather than some other (irrationally or sociopathically, for example), and so on.

I don't think the atheist can't adjudicate universals with an assumption set that cognitively dresses up in God's clothes, so to speak, in order to inferentially effect the denial of God's existence.

Universals and criteria are just as vulnerable to atheistic skepticism as God, yet the atheist goes right ahead and uses them as unstated ultimate mind commandments that get a free God-level ride, and yet uses them in all the same ways that were negated in arguing against the existence of God.
SuburbiaSurvivor
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6/7/2012 11:19:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:10:13 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

I appreciate your comments. I see'em alot!

Thank you, sir! And I, as well, in addition, to you, appreciate your comments!

Seriously though, where's RP? Drafterman?
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 11:27:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:19:08 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/7/2012 11:10:13 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

I appreciate your comments. I see'em alot!

Thank you, sir! And I, as well, in addition, to you, appreciate your comments!

Seriously though, where's RP? Drafterman?

I don't think they like this one very much. The title I gave it should've had their overzealous undies in a bunch by now.
Reason_Alliance
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6/7/2012 11:29:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:27:01 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/7/2012 11:19:08 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/7/2012 11:10:13 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

I appreciate your comments. I see'em alot!

Thank you, sir! And I, as well, in addition, to you, appreciate your comments!

Seriously though, where's RP? Drafterman?

I don't think they like this one very much. The title I gave it should've had their overzealous undies in a bunch by now.

Meh.. I'm heading to bed.
Rational_Thinker9119
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6/8/2012 3:02:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Are Atheist's Closet Theists?"

I can't speak for other Atheists, but I can honestly say I'm convinced that God is a man made fairy tale. This thread is like asking if people who don't believe in Spiderman are closet Spiderman believers, it's outrageous because obviously Spiderman doesn't exist, he's man made.
mattrodstrom
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6/8/2012 3:19:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 11:15:53 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
One in where the epistemic termination points are the basic principles of logic, general rationality (which includes logic of course), definitional constants, and background assumptions
Universals and criteria are just as vulnerable to atheistic skepticism as God, yet the atheist goes right ahead and uses them as unstated ultimate mind commandments that get a free God-level ride, and yet uses them in all the same ways that were negated in arguing against the existence of God.

The argument suggests that Atheists must make use of some Metaphysical/Absolute type assertions to argue against the existence of God.

Firstly.. One can assert Some things as being true on a Metaphysical-level whilst NOT supporting a Omni-super Great, Creating, God-figure

For example.. One Assert the Principles of Logic and Mathematics as being Absolute while simultaneously holding to Moral Subjectivism... and asserting that there no Objective scale of what would make Certain Actions, or certain Values, or certain dispostitions to act, objectively "Greater" than others...
Just because one holds Absolutely to Logic and Math and such DOESN'T mean one must hold to objective morality.
Along the same line There is no reason why one who holds Absolutely to Logic/math would Need to think there is some All-seeing, all knowing being. This just DOES NOT Follow by any stretch of the imagination.

Further, one needn't Assert ones manner of thinking (basis of logic, mathematics) as Absolute in order to justify Not believing in god, or thinking God is a farce...
One can Accept and Embrace one's manner of thinking because it's Useful.. and Not assert it as absolute, but use it anyways.. Given how it is, apparently, useful.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
drafterman
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6/8/2012 3:31:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/7/2012 10:56:48 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
If this doesn't rustle some jimmies, I don't know what will.

Why? I'm fully aware that some theists. Honestly don't believe in the existence of true atheists. We're either theists just looking for an excuse to do what we want, we actually believe in God but hate him, we're undercover Muslims (seriously, I've seen this), we're Pagans, etc.

So I'm hardly shocked by all this. However, as a matter of what I truly believe, you can only take my word for it, so I'm not sure what there is to argue. I don't believe in God, ergo I'm an atheist.
Reason_Alliance
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6/8/2012 3:44:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/8/2012 3:02:09 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
"Are Atheist's Closet Theists?"

I can't speak for other Atheists, but I can honestly say I'm convinced that God is a man made fairy tale. This thread is like asking if people who don't believe in Spiderman are closet Spiderman believers, it's outrageous because obviously Spiderman doesn't exist, he's man made.

That's just the title, mind the argument please.