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If you accept this as universal morality, you

GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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6/9/2012 8:31:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

http://blog.ted.com...

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God's power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
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6/9/2012 1:08:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 11:16:16 AM, stubs wrote:
I think this goes back to the did God predestine it or did he foreknow Jesus would be crucified.

Whether he did or not is irrelevant.
The fact that he did when it was going on and did nothings speaks to his poor morals though.

Regards
DL
Clash
Posts: 220
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6/9/2012 1:24:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Bro, what's up with you and all this 'God killing his son so our sins can be forgiven' thing? I think this is your fourth or third forum post which is about this topic. Yes, I know that this doctrine is illogical and so on, but I think most people with a little common sense knows that already...
GreatestIam
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6/9/2012 2:21:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 1:24:04 PM, Clash wrote:
Bro, what's up with you and all this 'God killing his son so our sins can be forgiven' thing? I think this is your fourth or third forum post which is about this topic. Yes, I know that this doctrine is illogical and so on, but I think most people with a little common sense knows that already...

True and that does not include believers and that is why repetition is required.

I also like that Ted clip and wanted it seen by even those with common sense.

Regards
DL
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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6/9/2012 3:07:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 1:08:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:16:16 AM, stubs wrote:
I think this goes back to the did God predestine it or did he foreknow Jesus would be crucified.

Lokk God the Son has always been in heaven- Jesus was not a man but God the Son in the flesh and chose to come and die for his creations because they can not stop sinning and damning themselves, so He died for us. Jesus has always been in heaven, He created us from the beginning and came died for us.
TheAsylum
cbrhawk1
Posts: 588
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6/9/2012 4:44:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

Morality does not exist at all. It is a human creation. So, if you go by what humans say, God is immoral. But, considering that God created the Universe, I guess humans ought to know better :).

If you had God's power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

I don't have God's power, so I don't know, and neither does anyone else. To assume to know what is right and wrong based on our very incomplete picture is silly to say the least.
"All science is 'wrong.'" ~ drafterman
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/9/2012 6:10:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 3:07:19 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

Lokk God the Son has always been in heaven- Jesus was not a man but God the Son in the flesh and chose to come and die for his creations because they can not stop sinning and damning themselves, so He died for us. Jesus has always been in heaven, He created us from the beginning and came died for us.

Well he was fully man fully God
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/9/2012 6:11:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 1:08:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

Whether he did or not is irrelevant.
The fact that he did when it was going on and did nothings speaks to his poor morals though.

Regards
DL

I'm thankful he didn't cause if Jesus didn't die for my sins then I wouldn't be able to go to heaven haha
GreatestIam
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6/10/2012 7:41:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 3:07:19 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 6/9/2012 1:08:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 6/9/2012 11:16:16 AM, stubs wrote:
I think this goes back to the did God predestine it or did he foreknow Jesus would be crucified.

Lokk God the Son has always been in heaven- Jesus was not a man but God the Son in the flesh and chose to come and die for his creations because they can not stop sinning and damning themselves, so He died for us. Jesus has always been in heaven, He created us from the beginning and came died for us.

You sell your soul on the possibility that the foolish Trinity concept, forced down Christianity`s throat by Constantine for his own agenda. Wow. Brave but silly soul.

It can be shown that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is wrong. It cannot be shown that Jesus is God as and he never said he was.

You are trying to benefits on just an opinion, not knowledge, given by men who cannot prove that benefit.

You sell your soul to Satan on another man's word that an immoral act is somehow good.

Sympathy is all I can offer to those like you who follow immoral dogma instead of common moral sense.

For as Jesus/God who you say lived before his mother did.
Without fantasy, miracles and magic you have nothing yet you will take the immoral low ground. Not what a God would want my friend.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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6/10/2012 7:46:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 4:44:12 PM, cbrhawk1 wrote:
Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

Morality does not exist at all. It is a human creation. So, if you go by what humans say, God is immoral. But, considering that God created the Universe, I guess humans ought to know better :).

If you had God's power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

I don't have God's power, so I don't know, and neither does anyone else. To assume to know what is right and wrong based on our very incomplete picture is silly to say the least.

Not as silly as you, a human, not being able to say that you would take the moral high ground and step up yourself.

Quite the pathetic father you would make.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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6/10/2012 7:49:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/9/2012 6:11:21 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/9/2012 1:08:59 PM, GreatestIam wrote:

Whether he did or not is irrelevant.
The fact that he did when it was going on and did nothings speaks to his poor morals though.

Regards
DL

I'm thankful he didn't cause if Jesus didn't die for my sins then I wouldn't be able to go to heaven haha

Laugh now. You will not when Satan laughs opens the door for those like you who will try to profit from the murder ofd an innocent man.

He who laughs last laughs longest.

Regards
DL
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/10/2012 8:01:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 7:49:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

Laugh now. You will not when Satan laughs opens the door for those like you who will try to profit from the murder ofd an innocent man.

He who laughs last laughs longest.

Regards
DL

Can you explain why that would happen?
GreatestIam
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6/10/2012 9:23:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 8:01:44 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/10/2012 7:49:40 AM, GreatestIam wrote:

Laugh now. You will not when Satan laughs opens the door for those like you who will try to profit from the murder ofd an innocent man.

He who laughs last laughs longest.

Regards
DL

Can you explain why that would happen?

Simply stated. You are responsible for your sins. Not an innocent man who has to die for you. That is an injustice.

You also have God taking a bribe.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

As you can see below, there is a moral way.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If your omnipotent God is not willinbg for something to happen, then where is your faith in his will being supreme?

Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, wrote:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.

This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so.
Emphasis mine.

So not only is the killing of an innocent man immoral, but it shows that the redemption allegory being used is that of a financial debt. Which is an interesting parallel to the practice of purchasing 'pardons'.

[It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book

Free will to me is the ability to make a choice without coercion.
A choice made while under coercion, (especially under threat of pain and suffering), is not a freely made choice, ergo it is not free will. In fact there is a name for it; it's called extortion and it is a criminal offense precisely for the reason that it is not a free choice but a forced one.

"Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense." Wikipedia

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21

No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Regards
DL