Total Posts:3|Showing Posts:1-3
Jump to topic:

God has some limits

elvroin_vonn_trazem
Posts: 99
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 3:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For example, consider the equation 1+1=2. This equation involves certain ABSTRACT concepts, independent of any Real Thing. I submit that not even God can manipulate the abstractions of mathematics to make them VALIDLY do things like "1+1=3".

Next, there is "Godel's Proof of Incompleteness". It basically states that no matter how much you know, it is possible to devise questions using that information that cannot be answered within the limits of the initial data. You have to learn more, to be able to answer those questions. And this is COOL--because even for God, it means there will always be new questions to ask and new things to learn. Eternally. Non-boringly.

Next, consider the claim that God is infinitely powerful. It doesn't have to be true, simply because all the available data indicates that the Physical Universe is a large FINITE object. So, God only needs to be powerful enough, in comparison to the Physical Universe, to appear to be infinitely powerful, without actually being infinitely powerful.

Next, even if God really was infinitely powerful, there is something known as "transfinity". Mathematicians are aware that there is a whole (infinite!) SERIES of Infinities. The very simplest member of the series is the ordinary counting variety, "1, 2, 3, ..."

Meanwhile, the type of infinity represented by the mathematical points on a geometric "line" is a more-intense type of infinity. The simple proof: There are an infinite number of points on the line, and you can pick any of them from which to start counting. But you can't even LOCATE the very-next point to count, because it is infinitely close to the first!

Mathematically, the type of infinity represented by the quantity of points on a line is equal to "ordinary infinity raised to the power of ordinary infinity", in the same way that 32 equals 2 raised to the power of 5 (2x2x2x2x2). A letter of the Hebrew alphabet, "Aleph", has been chosen to designate the different types of infinity. The ordinary counting type is "Aleph-Zero". The infinity of a geometric line is "Aleph-One".

It is known that the quantity/variety of curved lines that can drawn on a geometric "plane" is greater than Aleph-One, but it is not yet known if that quantity equals Aleph-Two (which equals Aleph-One raised to the power of Aleph-One).

Aleph-Three, of course, equals Aleph-Two raised to the power of Aleph-Two. And so on, for Aleph-Four, Aleph-Five, ... infinitely.

Anyway, you want to claim God is infinitely powerful? OK, HOW MUCH IS THAT, REALLY?

)
Don't tell me God is smart, and then describe to me the actions of a moron. A truly smart God is not going to do things that way!
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/10/2012 5:48:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This topic seems to pop up allot.

Most intellectuals share your view of omnipotence, as do I. I like to put it as the ability to make any potential reality true reality. Omnipotence is maximal greatness; maximal being the ability to do anything possible. That view would obviously exclude impossibilities, such as paradoxes and irregular math like you presented. God is under logic thus can only perform actions that comply with logic but his omnipotence would entail that he can perform every action that complies with logic. To assume absolute omnipotence you would have to assume relative logic, for if God is above logic than he could shift logic. That would extinguish objective logic and thus logic would be relative since it is susceptible to Gods will and thus susceptible to change.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/11/2012 5:18:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/10/2012 3:25:10 PM, elvroin_vonn_trazem wrote:
For example, consider the equation 1+1=2. This equation involves certain ABSTRACT concepts,

The Fool: what is is , there is no such thing as not-real, or non-existence, for it doesn't even exist to talk about. If you can talk about numbers, they exist as ideas in ourmind. They are mislabled as non existence. For we are much more sure that 1+1=2 that we are if we are dreaming or not. So it makes no sense it is less known. When in fact we know them more sure and confidently then most things.
You should have cognitive dissonance if you understand what I am saying here.

independent of any Real Thing.

The Fool: a thing in it self is a thing in itself. concepts simply "Ideas" and all knowledge is in the form of ideas. No ideas or concepts NO KNOWLEDGE.

I submit that not even God can manipulate the abstractions of mathematics to make them VALIDLY do things like "1+1=3".

The Fool: with what justification do you submit so. For even God depends on ONE, of he couldn't be one God. AS a matter of fact 1=existence. for everything that exist there is one of. Even if there are Three things there is 1 set of three.

Mathmatics is the logic of existences.

Next, there is "Godel's Proof of Incompleteness". It basically states that no matter how much you know, it is possible to devise questions using that information that cannot be answered within the limits of the initial data.

The Fool: his theorem is false. for not matter what presupposed certainty of somesort you realized right a way, that unceratain certainty is nonsense.

You have to learn more, to be able to answer those questions. And this is COOL--because even for God, it means there will always be new questions to ask and new things to learn. Eternally. Non-boringly.

Next, consider the claim that God is infinitely powerful.

The fool: God cannot be and not be God at the same time.(1-1=0) He cannot destroy him self for eternaty and come back. Aka

The infinite is unknowledge for even if you live for eternaty you will never reach it.

It doesn't have to be true, simply because all the available data indicates that the Physical Universe is a large FINITE object.

The Fool: its not possibe to even know that with science its a non-falsifiable claim. Science is over stepping its bounds on that one.

So, God only needs to be powerful enough, in comparison to the Physical Universe, to appear to be infinitely powerful, without actually being infinitely powerful.

The Fool: Power has not meaning with out being able to dermated the form of power itself.

Next, even if God really was infinitely powerful, there is something known as "transfinity". Mathematicians are aware that there is a whole (infinite!) SERIES of Infinities. The very simplest member of the series is the ordinary counting variety, "1, 2, 3, ..."

The Fool: No Its impossble all we can say is that we don't know and end. for infinite is only a negative definition as in Not-finite. it says nothing about what infinite is.

Meanwhile, the type of infinity represented by the mathematical points on a geometric "line" is a more-intense type of infinity.

The Fool: Nope, for it makes just as much sense to say that a line has NO points inparticluar.

The simple proof: There are an infinite number of points on the line, and you can pick any of them from which to start counting. But you can't even LOCATE the very-next point to count, because it is infinitely close to the first!

The Fool: Its not a proof its a falisy of language.

Mathematically, the type of infinity represented by the quantity of points on a line is equal to "ordinary infinity raised to the power of ordinary infinity", in the same way that 32 equals 2 raised to the power of 5 (2x2x2x2x2). A letter of the Hebrew alphabet, "Aleph", has been chosen to designate the different types of infinity.

The Fool: for infinity is incoheretable for even to graps the 'idea" of it the "idea "would have to be infinitly large. Thus you would have to thing for ever of one thing to for ever and you would still never conclude anything. That is infinite is NOT CONCLUSIVE(via Kant-critique of pure Reason.)
such claim are being

The ordinary counting type is "Aleph-Zero". The infinity of a geometric line is "Aleph-One".
It is known that the quantity/variety of curved lines that can drawn on a geometric "plane" is greater than Aleph-One, but it is not yet known if that quantity equals Aleph-Two (which equals Aleph-One raised to the power of Aleph-One).
Aleph-Three, of course, equals Aleph-Two raised to the power of Aleph-Two. And so on, for Aleph-Four, Aleph-Five, ... infinitely.

The Fool: Ah, so you play "language games". If infinity is not conclusive by principle how conclude know of higher form.

Anyway, you want to claim God is infinitely powerful? OK, HOW MUCH IS THAT, REALLY?

The Fool: is not much. is a lack of conclusive information(finite) Not the existence of it.

For these are the Words of THE FOOL ON THE HILL.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL