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Is Theism too simple?

Microsuck
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6/13/2012 12:51:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Note, I'm obviously parodying stubs/lewis.

Consequently, theism turns out to be too simple. If, by saying "God did it", solved all the questions in life, we shall never know the answer. Just as, if there was no understanding of our origin, what then? should we fill in the gap with "God did it?" and leave it as such without trying to find a naturalist explanation for the universe.

Theism, at first glance, appears to be too simple: It is the god of the gaps. Theist say, "I dont know; therefore, God" whereas atheists say, "I don't know; therefore, let's find out the answer.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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6/13/2012 12:52:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 12:52:35 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Well put.

Thank you.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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6/13/2012 12:57:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well put.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
bossyburrito
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6/13/2012 1:03:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is idiotic now that I look back at it. Theism involves something infinitely complex, so it isn't as simple as a(ss)theism. You will burn in hell microsuck.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 1:40:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 12:51:56 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Theism, at first glance, appears to be too simple: It is the god of the gaps. Theist say, "I dont know; therefore, God" whereas atheists say, "I don't know; therefore, let's find out the answer.


Lol, funny because all the theists i know say, we know God and we'd like to know how he did it..

The "I don't knows" we all want to figure out, are the same, and God is still and always will be compatible.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/13/2012 1:47:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Both theism and atheism are rather simple:

Atheism: Doesn't believe in God/gods
Theism: Believes in God/gods

Is there a necessity for it to be complicated?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/13/2012 2:23:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 2:19:14 PM, stubs wrote:
In my opinion I feel that the God of the gaps argument is rather poor.
It is, but I use it all the time!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/13/2012 3:15:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 12:51:56 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Note, I'm obviously parodying stubs/lewis.

Consequently, theism turns out to be too simple. If, by saying "God did it", solved all the questions in life, we shall never know the answer. Just as, if there was no understanding of our origin, what then? should we fill in the gap with "God did it?" and leave it as such without trying to find a naturalist explanation for the universe.

Theism, at first glance, appears to be too simple: It is the god of the gaps. Theist say, "I dont know; therefore, God" whereas atheists say, "I don't know; therefore, let's find out the answer.

I've always thought that if a theist loses their keys, the first thing that probably pops into their mind is a ghost took them according to God of the Gaps logic. Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean the supernatural is responsible. Can't explain the universe? OK, this proves "God did it".....The tides go in and tides go out lol
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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6/13/2012 3:16:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 3:15:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 12:51:56 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Note, I'm obviously parodying stubs/lewis.

Consequently, theism turns out to be too simple. If, by saying "God did it", solved all the questions in life, we shall never know the answer. Just as, if there was no understanding of our origin, what then? should we fill in the gap with "God did it?" and leave it as such without trying to find a naturalist explanation for the universe.

Theism, at first glance, appears to be too simple: It is the god of the gaps. Theist say, "I dont know; therefore, God" whereas atheists say, "I don't know; therefore, let's find out the answer.

I've always thought that if a theist loses their keys, the first thing that probably pops into their mind is a ghost took them according to God of the Gaps logic. Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean the supernatural is responsible. Can't explain the universe? OK, this proves "God did it".....The tides go in and tides go out lol

But can you explain why the tides go in and go out?
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/13/2012 5:19:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 3:15:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've always thought that if a theist loses their keys, the first thing that probably pops into their mind is a ghost took them according to God of the Gaps logic.
It's possible, but NOT inevitable. In other words, I use God of the Gaps logic and NEVER thought that a ghost took my keys. Probably because I never misplace them! Nonetheless, I don't believe in ghosts.

Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean the supernatural is responsible.
True, and on the same note: just because you believe in the supernatural doesn't mean that that you attribute responsibility to it for EVERYTHING that you cannot explain.

Can't explain the universe? OK, this proves "God did it".....The tides go in and tides go out lol
I believe that God started it all through the evolution of physics! I also believe that God transcends logic.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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6/13/2012 5:37:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 12:51:56 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Note, I'm obviously parodying stubs/lewis.

Consequently, theism turns out to be too simple. If, by saying "God did it", solved all the questions in life, we shall never know the answer. Just as, if there was no understanding of our origin, what then? should we fill in the gap with "God did it?" and leave it as such without trying to find a naturalist explanation for the universe.

Theism, at first glance, appears to be too simple: It is the god of the gaps. Theist say, "I dont know; therefore, God" whereas atheists say, "I don't know; therefore, let's find out the answer.

God isn't "too simple." He is infinitely complex.

Big difference.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/13/2012 5:48:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 5:19:16 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/13/2012 3:15:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've always thought that if a theist loses their keys, the first thing that probably pops into their mind is a ghost took them according to God of the Gaps logic.
It's possible, but NOT inevitable. In other words, I use God of the Gaps logic and NEVER thought that a ghost took my keys. Probably because I never misplace them! Nonetheless, I don't believe in ghosts.

Then you are not being consistent logically. If your logical formula is:

X cannot be explained naturally at this point in time, therefore, the supernatural is most likely responsible for X...Then why not apply it to losing your keys (if you ever did lol).


Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean the supernatural is responsible.
True, and on the same note: just because you believe in the supernatural doesn't mean that that you attribute responsibility to it for EVERYTHING that you cannot explain.

Then please, tell me your specific formula you use for God of the gaps arguments.


Can't explain the universe? OK, this proves "God did it".....The tides go in and tides go out lol
I believe that God started it all through the evolution of physics! I also believe that God transcends logic.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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6/13/2012 5:50:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 5:48:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 5:19:16 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/13/2012 3:15:57 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've always thought that if a theist loses their keys, the first thing that probably pops into their mind is a ghost took them according to God of the Gaps logic.
It's possible, but NOT inevitable. In other words, I use God of the Gaps logic and NEVER thought that a ghost took my keys. Probably because I never misplace them! Nonetheless, I don't believe in ghosts.

Then you are not being consistent logically. If your logical formula is:

X cannot be explained naturally at this point in time, therefore, the supernatural is most likely responsible for X...Then why not apply it to losing your keys (if you ever did lol).


Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean the supernatural is responsible.
True, and on the same note: just because you believe in the supernatural doesn't mean that that you attribute responsibility to it for EVERYTHING that you cannot explain.

Then please, tell me your specific formula you use for God of the gaps arguments.


Can't explain the universe? OK, this proves "God did it".....The tides go in and tides go out lol
I believe that God started it all through the evolution of physics! I also believe that God transcends logic.

Well, you cannot prove that God does not exist and you have no other explanation for the existence of the universe.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/13/2012 7:55:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The "God of the gaps" argument is based on an uninformed ad hoc assumption that has nothing to do with a serious evaluation of faith or religion, the premise is solely based on a "dumbing down" of faith to an uninformed cartoonish characterization.
The concept of the "God of the Gaps" was coined by a deeply religious evangelical lecturer named Henry Drummond and then made popular by the use of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, another deeply religious man who was martyred by Adolf Hitler. They were not trying to imply that it was an explanatory term, both used the term to describe what God is not, both were railing against dumbed down and uninformed conceptions, to seize upon it and use it as an ad hoc explanation of religion is uninformed and anti-intellectual to the point of being absurd.

No serious scholar of religion has ever found this "God of the gaps" theory to be even loosely correlated with the evidence, nor has it ever been considered to be the least bit analytically useful in the intellectual study of religion or faith. Perhaps the concept is ideologically useful in places like internet debate forums, but no real scholar of religion, faith, or theology takes it seriously, it really only indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the subject matter.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/14/2012 12:36:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 5:48:55 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 5:19:16 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
Then you are not being consistent logically. If your logical formula is:

X cannot be explained naturally at this point in time, therefore, the supernatural is most likely responsible for X...Then why not apply it to losing your keys (if you ever did lol).
But how am I being inconsistent, when in fact the reason I cannot find my keys is because I misplaced them? It requires no supernatural responsibility because there IS a natural explanation for it at this time.

Just because you can't explain something, doesn't mean the supernatural is responsible.
True, and on the same note: just because you believe in the supernatural doesn't mean that that you attribute responsibility to it for EVERYTHING that you cannot explain.
Then please, tell me your specific formula you use for God of the gaps arguments.
It's pretty much what you wrote, above...the only thing is that I hardly ever come to a situation in which I cannot find alternative explanations!

******************************

At 6/13/2012 5:50:09 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
Well, you cannot prove that God does not exist
Well, if I can show that the concept of God is a contradiction, then I can prove that He doesn't exist...

...and you have no other explanation for the existence of the universe.
But I do have an explanation for the existence of the Universe: there is no other alternative! Existence is transcendental and does NOT require a cause.

(A) The Universe = all things that exist = all of existence.
(B) Non-existence does NOT exist
(C) There is no other POSSIBLE alternative other than A.

**********************************

At 6/13/2012 7:55:23 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
The "God of the gaps" argument is based on an uninformed ad hoc assumption that has nothing to do with a serious evaluation of faith or religion, the premise is solely based on a "dumbing down" of faith to an uninformed cartoonish characterization.
Ouch! I disagree: religion has ALWAYS (and will always) reside in those gaps. Just look at historically the things religion was forced to changed its positions on due to scientific discovery.

The concept of the "God of the Gaps" was coined by a deeply religious evangelical lecturer named Henry Drummond and then made popular by the use of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, another deeply religious man who was martyred by Adolf Hitler. They were not trying to imply that it was an explanatory term, both used the term to describe what God is not, both were railing against dumbed down and uninformed conceptions, to seize upon it and use it as an ad hoc explanation of religion is uninformed and anti-intellectual to the point of being absurd.

No serious scholar of religion has ever found this "God of the gaps" theory to be even loosely correlated with the evidence, nor has it ever been considered to be the least bit analytically useful in the intellectual study of religion or faith. Perhaps the concept is ideologically useful in places like internet debate forums, but no real scholar of religion, faith, or theology takes it seriously, it really only indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the subject matter.
This is true, nonetheless it has been the case that the God of the Gaps has been USED by religion WITHOUT admitting that they used it.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
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6/14/2012 4:01:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 7:55:23 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
The "God of the gaps" argument is based on an uninformed ad hoc assumption that has nothing to do with a serious evaluation of faith or religion, the premise is solely based on a "dumbing down" of faith to an uninformed cartoonish characterization.

The Fool: For maybe you are over complicated the issue. The 'God of Gaps fallacy' is, just a particular case of an 'appeal to ignorance.' All your other claims, are just extra 'noise'. 'I don't know therefore, its God. Which is simply the logical form
of 0->1 (if nothing then something).

Where 0 is non-existence, as appose to the classic logic's ~.

Where it is ambious to the different expressions of Not:

non-existence 0 or 0(x) still leads to 0
opposite -1
hidden or expressed conjection negation ~

The concept of the "God of the Gaps" was coined by a deeply religious evangelical lecturer named Henry Drummond and then made popular by the use of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, another deeply religious man who was martyred by Adolf Hitler.

The Fool: Its irrevent to the logic of it. For you play 'language games'

They were not trying to imply that it was an explanatory term, both used the term to describe what God is not, both were railing against dumbed down and uninformed conceptions, to seize upon it and use it as an ad hoc explanation of religion is uninformed and anti-intellectual to the point of being absurd.

The Fool: irrelavent.

No serious scholar of religion has ever found this "God of the gaps" theory to be even loosely correlated with the evidence, nor has it ever been considered to be the least bit analytically useful in the intellectual study of religion or faith. Perhaps the concept is ideologically useful in places like internet debate forums, but no real scholar of religion, faith, or theology takes it seriously, it really only indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the subject matter.

The Fool: Its not a theory, its a logical Fallacy, aka contradition. No, I am not going to simplify it further.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
tBoonePickens
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6/14/2012 4:22:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 4:01:51 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
The Fool: For maybe you are over complicated the issue. The 'God of Gaps fallacy' is, just a particular case of an 'appeal to ignorance.' All your other claims, are just extra 'noise'. 'I don't know therefore, its God. Which is simply the logical form
of 0->1 (if nothing then something).


Where 0 is non-existence, as appose to the classic logic's ~.

Where it is ambious to the different expressions of Not:

non-existence 0 or 0(x) still leads to 0
opposite -1
hidden or expressed conjection negation ~
Not knowing is NOT a nothing. Not knowing is a something.
P1) I don't know?
Q1) I don't know what?
A1) I don't know something.

So it is NOT a nothing.

The Fool: Its not a theory, its a logical Fallacy, aka contradition. No, I am not going to simplify it further.
That depends on the "gap"; I find that it is usually a non sequitur.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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6/15/2012 7:58:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
: At 6/14/2012 4:01:51 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 6/13/2012 7:55:23 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
The "God of the gaps" argument is based on an uninformed ad hoc assumption that has nothing to do with a serious evaluation of faith or religion, the premise is solely based on a "dumbing down" of faith to an uninformed cartoonish characterization.

The Fool: For maybe you are over complicated the issue. The 'God of Gaps fallacy' is, just a particular case of an 'appeal to ignorance.' All your other claims, are just extra 'noise'.


I didn't make any other claims, it appears that you are arguing with your own contrived nonexistent being. I suppose that approach goes along with the "thinking for yourself" instead of "being informed" thing, debating with yourself is a function of thinking for yourself....right?

'I don't know therefore, its God. Which is simply the logical form
of 0->1 (if nothing then something).


Where 0 is non-existence, as appose to the classic logic's ~.

Where it is ambious to the different expressions of Not:

non-existence 0 or 0(x) still leads to 0
opposite -1
hidden or expressed conjection negation ~


I will presume the imaginary person you are debating will be convinced that you know what you are talking about, I would imagine the best thing about making up your adversary is you get to make up his/her response.

: : The concept of the "God of the Gaps" was coined by a deeply religious evangelical lecturer named Henry Drummond and then made popular by the use of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, another deeply religious man who was martyred by Adolf Hitler.

The Fool: Its irrevent to the logic of it. For you play 'language games'


Nope, I was just providing background input.

: They were not trying to imply that it was an explanatory term, both used the term to describe what God is not, both were railing against dumbed down and uninformed conceptions, to seize upon it and use it as an ad hoc explanation of religion is uninformed and anti-intellectual to the point of being absurd.

The Fool: irrelavent.


Yeah, I can see how real people and actual information would indeed be irrelevant to this rather interesting "thinking for yourself" approach to self debate.

: : No serious scholar of religion has ever found this "God of the gaps" theory to be even loosely correlated with the evidence, nor has it ever been considered to be the least bit analytically useful in the intellectual study of religion or faith. Perhaps the concept is ideologically useful in places like Internet debate forums, but no real scholar of religion, faith, or theology takes it seriously, it really only indicates a lack of knowledge regarding the subject matter.

The Fool: Its not a theory, its a logical Fallacy, aka contradition. No, I am not going to simplify it further.


Oh, don't worry, you certainly don't need to be even more simple, you've got it dumbed down far enough...astoundingly so.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater