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Do Miracles Violate the Laws of Nature

stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/13/2012 3:08:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I thought it was really interesting when Dr. Doug Thrower talked about the law of gravity and how it could "cease to be" without something outside of the universe invoking that.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/13/2012 6:07:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This hurts his case more than the atheist's in my opinion. This is because if any laws of nature seem to be violated in the future, one could use his argument to endorse a natural explanation instead of a supernatural one.

Basically, if something happens that looks like a 'miracle' (a violation in natural law), we can just say it could be due to something inside the universe
(natural explanation) and back it up with his argument here...
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/13/2012 6:20:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 6:07:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
This hurts his case more than the atheist's in my opinion. This is because if any laws of nature seem to be violated in the future, one could use his argument to endorse a natural explanation instead of a supernatural one.

Basically, if something happens that looks like a 'miracle' (a violation in natural law), we can just say it could be due to something inside the universe
(natural explanation) and back it up with his argument here...

I think the main point was to show that scientist need not to be so opposed to the idea of miracles. Just as faith and reason do not have to be in direct opposition to one another, neither does miracles and science. I do see the point you are making though.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/13/2012 6:22:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Either they do or they don't. If they don't violate the laws of nature, then what are they? Merely rare events? How do you distinguish mundane rare events from miraculous ones? What is the probability threshold?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/13/2012 7:35:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 6:22:08 PM, drafterman wrote:
Either they do or they don't. If they don't violate the laws of nature, then what are they? Merely rare events? How do you distinguish mundane rare events from miraculous ones? What is the probability threshold?

Yes that is a good question. I think that the purpose of the video was not to answer that question, but rather just show science and miracles can co-exist. I think that a quality of miraculous events are that they are rare.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 7:36:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 6:22:08 PM, drafterman wrote:
Either they do or they don't. If they don't violate the laws of nature, then what are they? Merely rare events? How do you distinguish mundane rare events from miraculous ones? What is the probability threshold?


Do you still love nature, despite what it did to your face?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/13/2012 8:04:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 7:35:55 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/13/2012 6:22:08 PM, drafterman wrote:
Either they do or they don't. If they don't violate the laws of nature, then what are they? Merely rare events? How do you distinguish mundane rare events from miraculous ones? What is the probability threshold?

Yes that is a good question. I think that the purpose of the video was not to answer that question, but rather just show science and miracles can co-exist. I think that a quality of miraculous events are that they are rare.

How can you show the coexistence of two things without fully defining one of them?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/13/2012 9:20:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:04:45 PM, drafterman wrote:

How can you show the coexistence of two things without fully defining one of them?

Take the example in the video. Something like the law of gravity can coexist with someone throwing a ball up and it just continuing to go up. We know that it is conceivably possible these two things can coexist even though our understanding of the law of gravity is not complete.
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/13/2012 10:04:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Fool: it depends on the definitoin.

If Miricles: are impossible, Well they don't exist. For even if one happend it would be the proof of its possiibility. When we say, we did the impossible, its only epistemological, in that we did what we didnt' think was possible.

A softer version is that a 'Mirical' is a very unlikly, but this again is just virtue of epistomology in that we didnt' expect it to happen.

Mind you all "mirical" are positive incidences , where as disaster/catastrophy is the opposite.

But we also have to take in account of the fact where the standard for what is considered a 'miricle in ancient time wasn't very high!

That is they are all related to knowledge about the world, the more ignorant we are the more likely we are to assume event to be miracles because we don't understand how it happened.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL