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the Christian God

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

3) We're dealing with a God that is beyond us, beyond our understanding, and beyond our Universe. Yet, he somehow requires us to understand him and abide by his laws.

This setup makes it inevitable that there will be atheists. This is kind of like setting up booby-traps all over a city and imprisoning whoever was unlucky enough to fall into one. Where is the justice in that?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/13/2012 8:21:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

3) We're dealing with a God that is beyond us, beyond our understanding, and beyond our Universe. Yet, he somehow requires us to understand him and abide by his laws.

This setup makes it inevitable that there will be atheists. This is kind of like setting up booby-traps all over a city and imprisoning whoever was unlucky enough to fall into one. Where is the justice in that?

None. Justifying it requires either
A) giving god an unwarranted benefit of the doubt that this set up is the best of worlds
B) interpreting god in such a liberal manner as to practically be an atheist, but just refusing to realize it
C) being a sociopath
D) suffering some sort of head trauma
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 8:22:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

lol in our limited and immature understanding of the universe, how can you possibly say this so confidently? Also, there is no basis for doubt other then, lack of understanding, and lack of faith.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

The first humans chose how the rest of us would live, and they chose sin; so, we do not have the free-will to do good, we are slaves to sin.

3) We're dealing with a God that is beyond us, beyond our understanding, and beyond our Universe. Yet, he somehow requires us to understand him and abide by his laws.

He made his law pretty simple; it's us who complicate it.

This setup makes it inevitable that there will be atheists. This is kind of like setting up booby-traps all over a city and imprisoning whoever was unlucky enough to fall into one. Where is the justice in that?


So, your overall logic, is that If there is a God, it's his fault that people don't believe?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

3) We're dealing with a God that is beyond us, beyond our understanding, and beyond our Universe. Yet, he somehow requires us to understand him and abide by his laws.

No such understanding is required. Only faith.

This setup makes it inevitable that there will be atheists. This is kind of like setting up booby-traps all over a city and imprisoning whoever was unlucky enough to fall into one. Where is the justice in that?

I see no injustice.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?


3) We're dealing with a God that is beyond us, beyond our understanding, and beyond our Universe. Yet, he somehow requires us to understand him and abide by his laws.

No such understanding is required. Only faith.

This setup makes it inevitable that there will be atheists. This is kind of like setting up booby-traps all over a city and imprisoning whoever was unlucky enough to fall into one. Where is the justice in that?

I see no injustice.
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/13/2012 8:36:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?

You do have the choice to be a robot, that's the whole point ;)
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/13/2012 8:38:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:36:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?

You do have the choice to be a robot, that's the whole point ;)

There's no choice to become a robot. Robots don't have free will. Even if I theoretically chose to follow someone's orders all the time, I would still only be doing it because I wanted to and could easily break free at any time.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?


You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/13/2012 8:40:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:36:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?

You do have the choice to be a robot, that's the whole point ;)

No I don't. If free will exists, I'm stuck with it.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/13/2012 8:43:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?


You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

What if I am a moral person and I don't believe in Christ? I would bet my life that I am a better, more moral person than most Christians.

Anyways, slaves do not have free will.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/13/2012 8:43:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

If God can make us robots of sin, why doesn't he make us robots of good?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/13/2012 8:44:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Plus, the situation you described is the "all bad alternatives" situation in philosophy. In such cases, we are not considered to have free will or be responsible for our actions.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 8:50:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:43:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?


You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

What if I am a moral person and I don't believe in Christ? I would bet my life that I am a better, more moral person than most Christians.

Well, placing yourself above others in anything, is a immoral to me (or arrogant), but i'd be inclined to agree with you.. 90% of my friends are atheists, or agnostic, and are more relaxed, less critical of others, more patient then all of my Christian friends.. including my self.

Anyways, slaves do not have free will.

Good point, now your starting to get it. (cough) we don't have "free"-will.

We only have the will to sin.

One is saved, in the Christian faith, by God, not by our moral or good works.

Our God-applied faith, produces morality and good works, but is not based off it.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 8:56:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:44:05 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Plus, the situation you described is the "all bad alternatives" situation in philosophy. In such cases, we are not considered to have free will or be responsible for our actions.


Lol actions.

We're responsible for our filthy condition; actions are only the symptoms.

God very clearly says he chose whom he would save and whom he'd punish based on his purpose and will a lone. Not by human effort or desire; Romans 9...

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/13/2012 8:56:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:43:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

If God can make us robots of sin, why doesn't he make us robots of good?


He does.

Robot 2 - Slave of Christ
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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6/13/2012 8:57:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:56:38 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:43:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

If God can make us robots of sin, why doesn't he make us robots of good?


He does.

Robot 2 - Slave of Christ

So you don't have free will? Because in the context of this conversation, robot means not having free will.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/13/2012 8:58:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:50:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:43:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?


You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

What if I am a moral person and I don't believe in Christ? I would bet my life that I am a better, more moral person than most Christians.

Well, placing yourself above others in anything, is a immoral to me (or arrogant), but i'd be inclined to agree with you..
Why is arrogance immoral? Trust me, I'm far from arrogant. My first relationship broke down because I was insecure :/
90% of my friends are atheists, or agnostic, and are more relaxed, less critical of others, more patient then all of my Christian friends.. including my self.

Anyways, slaves do not have free will.

Good point, now your starting to get it. (cough) we don't have "free"-will.

We only have the will to sin.

One is saved, in the Christian faith, by God, not by our moral or good works.

Our God-applied faith, produces morality and good works, but is not based off it.

So if we don't have free will, how can we be held accountable for our actions?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/13/2012 8:58:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:56:02 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:44:05 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Plus, the situation you described is the "all bad alternatives" situation in philosophy. In such cases, we are not considered to have free will or be responsible for our actions.


Lol actions.

We're responsible for our filthy condition; actions are only the symptoms.

How? If we don't have free will, we are not responsible.
God very clearly says he chose whom he would save and whom he'd punish based on his purpose and will a lone. Not by human effort or desire; Romans 9...

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/13/2012 9:17:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:56:38 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:43:41 PM, stubs wrote:

If God can make us robots of sin, why doesn't he make us robots of good?


He does.

Robot 2 - Slave of Christ

I'm saying since God made people who are inclined to do evil and cannot choose God or choose to do good apart from work in some form work of the holy spirit (as we both agree the bible says), why did he not make people who are inclined to do good?
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/13/2012 9:34:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:38:35 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:36:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?

You do have the choice to be a robot, that's the whole point ;)

There's no choice to become a robot. Robots don't have free will. Even if I theoretically chose to follow someone's orders all the time, I would still only be doing it because I wanted to and could easily break free at any time.

Exactly!

Now, what specifically is wrong with free will? Should God have forced all of you to worship him forever and ever without you guy's having any say in the matter?
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/13/2012 9:35:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:40:07 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:36:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?

You do have the choice to be a robot, that's the whole point ;)

No I don't. If free will exists, I'm stuck with it.

You can choose to behave like a robot.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/14/2012 12:55:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:57:27 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:56:38 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:43:41 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:38:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

You are a robot.. a robot of sin. you could be a robot made to be destroyed, or you could be a robot meant to be upgraded.

only 2 choices, and both are God's choice:

Robot 1 - Slave to sin.

Robot 2 - Slave to Christ.

If God can make us robots of sin, why doesn't he make us robots of good?


He does.

Robot 2 - Slave of Christ

So you don't have free will? Because in the context of this conversation, robot means not having free will.


Yep. No free-will.

Only will to sin and God's will.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/14/2012 12:58:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 9:34:09 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:38:35 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:36:40 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:33:41 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:27:55 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:12:55 PM, 000ike wrote:
1) We're dealing with a God that requires us to know of his existence,....yet designs the world in such a way that there is a basis for doubt.

*Believe in his existence.

2) We're dealing with a God that gives us the capacity to sin,...yet wants no sin. It's like telling a fish not to swim. Why does he give us freewill if he doesn't want us to use it?

He's giving you a choice. Would you rather be a robot?

Yes. Oddly, I wasn't given THAT choice. Why not?

You do have the choice to be a robot, that's the whole point ;)

There's no choice to become a robot. Robots don't have free will. Even if I theoretically chose to follow someone's orders all the time, I would still only be doing it because I wanted to and could easily break free at any time.

Exactly!

Now, what specifically is wrong with free will? Should God have forced all of you to worship him forever and ever without you guy's having any say in the matter?

If he chooses not to provide rational evidence for his existence, then yes.

Alternatively, if he provides rational evidence for his existence and proves that he is just, I'm happy to worship.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/14/2012 1:12:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 8:58:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How? If we don't have free will, we are not responsible.


Romans 9:19-21
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Really need to get over yourself..
wail, kick, cry, whine.. we are the creation not the creators; we have right only to death.. and you've said it clearly before: You'd choose hell over God, if he's really the God we Christians are subscribed too.
Even though, you may have been chosen for glory, or, created for distruction..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/14/2012 1:20:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 9:17:14 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:56:38 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:43:41 PM, stubs wrote:

If God can make us robots of sin, why doesn't he make us robots of good?


He does.

Robot 2 - Slave of Christ

I'm saying since God made people who are inclined to do evil and cannot choose God or choose to do good apart from work in some form work of the holy spirit (as we both agree the bible says), why did he not make people who are inclined to do good?


lol, uhh.. he did?? Robot 2????

Those he chose to have faith, are slaves to Christ. Faith produces good works, morality, godliness.. AKA inclination to do good?

Now, it is not the person that is responsible for the good works, but simply the person being moved by the holy spirit.

If you are specificly referring to good, produced by man, of his own heart; I concede, I have no idea why he didn't do that, and A LOT of other things...

But, it doesn't really matter why things aren't a certain way.. all that matters, is the way things are.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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6/14/2012 1:40:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:12:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:58:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How? If we don't have free will, we are not responsible.


Romans 9:19-21
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


Really need to get over yourself..
I need to get over myself?

Your quote proves nothing. I ask a question as to why I'm being blamed for something that you admit I'm not responsible for, and your claim is that I should shut up and not ask questions (which I have no control over since I have no free will :P). That's not an answer.
wail, kick, cry, whine.. we are the creation not the creators; we have right only to death.. and you've said it clearly before: You'd choose hell over God, if he's really the God we Christians are subscribed too.
Yeah, I would, but I don't have a choice because I have no free will.
Even though, you may have been chosen for glory, or, created for distruction..
I don't have a choice in the matter.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/14/2012 1:46:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:20:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


lol, uhh.. he did?? Robot 2????


What about everyone he made that is not "robot 2"?

Those he chose to have faith, are slaves to Christ. Faith produces good works, morality, godliness.. AKA inclination to do good?


Why didn't he chose everyone to have faith and be slaves to Christ? If he chose some couldn't he just as easily chose all?

Now, it is not the person that is responsible for the good works, but simply the person being moved by the holy spirit.


But how could God blame/punish someone for something he predestined them to do? I know you will probably use the verse that you used in your above post, but can you tell me how that would make God good? Can you think of any plausible situation in which punishing someone for something you predestined them to do is just?

If you are specificly referring to good, produced by man, of his own heart; I concede, I have no idea why he didn't do that, and A LOT of other things...

But, it doesn't really matter why things aren't a certain way.. all that matters, is the way things are.

Note: I am playing a lot of devils advocate here.
Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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6/14/2012 2:00:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:46:30 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2012 1:20:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


lol, uhh.. he did?? Robot 2????


What about everyone he made that is not "robot 2"?

Those he chose to have faith, are slaves to Christ. Faith produces good works, morality, godliness.. AKA inclination to do good?


Why didn't he chose everyone to have faith and be slaves to Christ? If he chose some couldn't he just as easily chose all?

Now, it is not the person that is responsible for the good works, but simply the person being moved by the holy spirit.


But how could God blame/punish someone for something he predestined them to do? I know you will probably use the verse that you used in your above post, but can you tell me how that would make God good? Can you think of any plausible situation in which punishing someone for something you predestined them to do is just?

If you are specificly referring to good, produced by man, of his own heart; I concede, I have no idea why he didn't do that, and A LOT of other things...

But, it doesn't really matter why things aren't a certain way.. all that matters, is the way things are.

Note: I am playing a lot of devils advocate here.

What are you playing devil's advocate about? o.O
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/14/2012 2:52:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:40:21 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 6/14/2012 1:12:54 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/13/2012 8:58:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
How? If we don't have free will, we are not responsible.


Romans 9:19-21
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


Really need to get over yourself..
I need to get over myself?

Your quote proves nothing. I ask a question as to why I'm being blamed for something that you admit I'm not responsible for, and your claim is that I should shut up and not ask questions (which I have no control over since I have no free will :P). That's not an answer.


Incorrect. we are responsible for not having free-will. God has nothing to do with your sin, you do. You have the "free" will to sin how ever you want.. lol You are a slave to sin, and childish reasoning. This is a the infection that was spread from the first peoples disobedience, and foolish desire.

God does not say why he chooses who he choosesl; but he does say, whatever reasons he has, are his alone, and since he created everything, he reserves the right to make those decisions, despite our rebelious inclinations, to weigh our sin-centered judgements against his.

wail, kick, cry, whine.. we are the creation not the creators; we have right only to death.. and you've said it clearly before: You'd choose hell over God, if he's really the God we Christians are subscribed too.
Yeah, I would, but I don't have a choice because I have no free will.
Even though, you may have been chosen for glory, or, created for distruction..
I don't have a choice in the matter.


Nope. So, if you come to a point in your life, when you believe in God, and have this sudden desire to know Christ.. you will soon realize, God put it there.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/14/2012 3:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:46:30 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/14/2012 1:20:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:


lol, uhh.. he did?? Robot 2????


What about everyone he made that is not "robot 2"?

They will be destroyed, of course.

Those he chose to have faith, are slaves to Christ. Faith produces good works, morality, godliness.. AKA inclination to do good?


Why didn't he chose everyone to have faith and be slaves to Christ? If he chose some couldn't he just as easily chose all?

I haven't the faintest clue why God does most of the things he does; but, when observing questions like this, that i ask questions like: "Why does this matter again?"

Now, it is not the person that is responsible for the good works, but simply the person being moved by the holy spirit.


But how could God blame/punish someone for something he predestined them to do? I know you will probably use the verse that you used in your above post, but can you tell me how that would make God good?

Nothing makes God good; God makes good. God is good.

I can speak to you like this, because you're a believer, but if we don't know God, then we don't know good. Good to me and you is money, xbox, and some dank..
maybe, puppies, fuzzy feelings, and sunny days too; But God is absolute Good.. not trivial diluted sinnful expressions of good.

Can you think of any plausible situation in which punishing someone for something you predestined them to do is just?

God creating a universe and in this universe creating creatures for different purposes. lol...

If you are specificly referring to good, produced by man, of his own heart; I concede, I have no idea why he didn't do that, and A LOT of other things...

But, it doesn't really matter why things aren't a certain way.. all that matters, is the way things are.

Note: I am playing a lot of devils advocate here.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.