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Could someone check my logic here?

nowinterweather
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6/13/2012 10:17:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I just wrote this for yahoo answers, but I think everyone knows how that can go south pretty quickly. Copied from the site:

I'm a high school freshman, and with homework and all, I haven't had as much time to think this through as I'd like.

I don't want to base my recently-adopted unbelief on any false logic, so I'd appreciate if someone would check this for me. The following pertains specifically to what I have been taught about the God of the Bible at a non-denominational Presbyterian (make what you will of that) for the past three years:

In order for God to be God, he must be:

Omniscient (Hebrews 4:13, Isaiah 46:9–10 seem to support this in particular)
Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6)
Omnibenevolent (Romans 8:37-39, among many others)

I've yet to see anyone have any quarrel with any of the above.

In addition, I've been taught that the only feasible way to be admitted into heaven is to accept Jesus as a personal savior, although I understand that this is debated heavily amongst theologians and denominations alike.

Finally, God is the creator of all things, and has ultimate and unwavering judgement pertaining to a person's residency in heaven of hell (again, little to quarrel with here).

Now, after hearing all of this delivered in a sermon one Wednesday night (at my youth group), I began to wonder how the above could actually coexist. If God is omniscient, then, by definition, he knows everything; Isaiah 46:9-10 also seem to support that God knows everything about the future (I understand this falls under the umbrella of omniscience), if I remember the verse correctly. If God is also the omnipotent creator, then He must have designed atheists with the knowledge that they would reject Him; it then follows that God would ultimately know where a person "winds up" after death, since nothing escapes His knowledge. How, then, could God be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? It seems as if one must be dropped in order for the notion of God to even be logically consistent from a fundamental level.

A couple of notes, in closing:

a. As I've stated, I understand the argument is based upon the idea that one can not be admitted into heaven without accepting and knowing Jesus Christ, a point which has been disputed and debated heavily. At the least, this argument applies to the God of my non-denominational Presbyterian Church.
b. Please don't try to introduce free will; it's asinine, and it can't logically coexist with the above.

I thank you for making it this far, if you did.
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/13/2012 10:20:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:17:24 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
I just wrote this for yahoo answers, but I think everyone knows how that can go south pretty quickly. Copied from the site:

I'm a high school freshman, and with homework and all, I haven't had as much time to think this through as I'd like.

I don't want to base my recently-adopted unbelief on any false logic, so I'd appreciate if someone would check this for me. The following pertains specifically to what I have been taught about the God of the Bible at a non-denominational Presbyterian (make what you will of that) for the past three years:

In order for God to be God, he must be:

Omniscient (Hebrews 4:13, Isaiah 46:9–10 seem to support this in particular)
Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6)
Omnibenevolent (Romans 8:37-39, among many others)

I've yet to see anyone have any quarrel with any of the above.

In addition, I've been taught that the only feasible way to be admitted into heaven is to accept Jesus as a personal savior, although I understand that this is debated heavily amongst theologians and denominations alike.

Finally, God is the creator of all things, and has ultimate and unwavering judgement pertaining to a person's residency in heaven of hell (again, little to quarrel with here).

Now, after hearing all of this delivered in a sermon one Wednesday night (at my youth group), I began to wonder how the above could actually coexist. If God is omniscient, then, by definition, he knows everything; Isaiah 46:9-10 also seem to support that God knows everything about the future (I understand this falls under the umbrella of omniscience), if I remember the verse correctly. If God is also the omnipotent creator, then He must have designed atheists with the knowledge that they would reject Him; it then follows that God would ultimately know where a person "winds up" after death, since nothing escapes His knowledge. How, then, could God be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? It seems as if one must be dropped in order for the notion of God to even be logically consistent from a fundamental level.

It is better to have some good then no good at all.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
nowinterweather
Posts: 17
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6/13/2012 10:27:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:20:36 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:

It is better to have some good then no good at all.

Would you mind expanding? I'm not sure I know what you mean.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:17:24 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
I just wrote this for yahoo answers, but I think everyone knows how that can go south pretty quickly. Copied from the site:

I'm a high school freshman, and with homework and all, I haven't had as much time to think this through as I'd like.

I don't want to base my recently-adopted unbelief on any false logic, so I'd appreciate if someone would check this for me. The following pertains specifically to what I have been taught about the God of the Bible at a non-denominational Presbyterian (make what you will of that) for the past three years:

In order for God to be God, he must be:

Omniscient (Hebrews 4:13, Isaiah 46:9–10 seem to support this in particular)
Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6)
Omnibenevolent (Romans 8:37-39, among many others)

I've yet to see anyone have any quarrel with any of the above.

In addition, I've been taught that the only feasible way to be admitted into heaven is to accept Jesus as a personal savior, although I understand that this is debated heavily amongst theologians and denominations alike.

Finally, God is the creator of all things, and has ultimate and unwavering judgement pertaining to a person's residency in heaven of hell (again, little to quarrel with here).

Now, after hearing all of this delivered in a sermon one Wednesday night (at my youth group), I began to wonder how the above could actually coexist. If God is omniscient, then, by definition, he knows everything; Isaiah 46:9-10 also seem to support that God knows everything about the future (I understand this falls under the umbrella of omniscience), if I remember the verse correctly. If God is also the omnipotent creator, then He must have designed atheists with the knowledge that they would reject Him; it then follows that God would ultimately know where a person "winds up" after death, since nothing escapes His knowledge. How, then, could God be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? It seems as if one must be dropped in order for the notion of God to even be logically consistent from a fundamental level.

A couple of notes, in closing:

a. As I've stated, I understand the argument is based upon the idea that one can not be admitted into heaven without accepting and knowing Jesus Christ, a point which has been disputed and debated heavily. At the least, this argument applies to the God of my non-denominational Presbyterian Church.
b. Please don't try to introduce free will; it's asinine, and it can't logically coexist with the above.

I thank you for making it this far, if you did.

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.
nowinterweather
Posts: 17
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6/13/2012 10:45:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.

Fair enough, I'm tired, and I was in a hurry. But, the point still stands; if God is omniscient, then what relevance does free will hold if He does already know what choice we will make?
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/13/2012 10:53:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well I personally find it absurd when people say if God isn't omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent than he can't be called God.

But anyways, I'm undecided on all the omni's of God, and what you say would tie into my reasons. But then again, it is a little bit falacious to make arguments against God/Gods character based off of speculation of what he would or would not do. Just think about it. God is by very definition beyond understanding and comprehension. Furthermore we have little knowledge about his ways. I've always found arguments that follow the lines of presuming what God would do if he existed to be partially or wholly flawed. Our own human understanding can be very flawed in trying to understand a completely different and supernatural being. I do not find all arguments that follow those lines refuted however. I find the problem of evil to be quite challenging to my beliefs for example.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
medic0506
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6/13/2012 11:01:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:45:44 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.

Fair enough, I'm tired, and I was in a hurry. But, the point still stands; if God is omniscient, then what relevance does free will hold if He does already know what choice we will make?

It's prolly of little relevance to God since He knows the answer already, but to us it's very relevant. We are the ones who actually have to make the choice.
stubs
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6/14/2012 12:16:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:45:44 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.

Fair enough, I'm tired, and I was in a hurry. But, the point still stands; if God is omniscient, then what relevance does free will hold if He does already know what choice we will make?

I think Medic was on point. We must also think about what comes first. God knows what we will choose before we choose it. However, God knows what we will choose because we chose it. Us choosing comes chronologically first, but God knows it before we make the actual choice.

Now that I re-read that I probably could have worded it in an easier to read way, but I'm not sure how so sorry about that haha.
JaxsonRaine
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6/14/2012 12:46:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:45:44 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.

Fair enough, I'm tired, and I was in a hurry. But, the point still stands; if God is omniscient, then what relevance does free will hold if He does already know what choice we will make?

I don't see why people struggle with this concept.

Foreknowledge of an event DOES NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT equal being the cause of the event.

I can prove it too.

Next time you see something falling, you can know that it is going to hit the ground...

...before it hits the ground...

... without having caused it to hit the ground.

Ok, so lets move on.

P1 - God knows everything that is going to happen.
P2 - I am going to do X tomorrow.
C - God knows that I am going to do X tomorrow.

The conclusion is not a premise, it is not a cause. It is a result of God knowing the future. God knows what I am going to choose to do.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
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6/14/2012 12:50:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 12:16:18 AM, stubs wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:45:44 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.

Fair enough, I'm tired, and I was in a hurry. But, the point still stands; if God is omniscient, then what relevance does free will hold if He does already know what choice we will make?

I think Medic was on point. We must also think about what comes first. God knows what we will choose before we choose it. However, God knows what we will choose because we chose it. Us choosing comes chronologically first, but God knows it before we make the actual choice.

Now that I re-read that I probably could have worded it in an easier to read way, but I'm not sure how so sorry about that haha.

Right, it comes from confusing cause and effect.

Normally, a cause always comes before an effect, so people think God must cause something to know it is going to happen.

But the truth is, we can receive information about an event, before it happens, that can cause us to know that it is going to happen, before it happens. Make sense?

You see someone jump off a building. You can see them falling, see their trajectory, and conclude before it happens that they are going to splat.

Somehow, God(assuming for the argument) has received information about our actions. Perhaps he can actually see into the future(which would be transmitting data through time). Perhaps he exists outside our dimension and can enter and exit our timeframe, kind of like how we can skip back and forth when looking at a comic strip(2-d world). Perhaps he just knows us so well that he knows what choices we will choose(like a parent knows his child will choose a sucker over a piece of toast).
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
OberHerr
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6/14/2012 12:53:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here, lemme ask you something. Say I have a crystal ball that allows me to see the future. I see that Mr. Brown is gonna accept my job offer.

So, when I ask him to join, and he says yes, does that mean it wasn't his choice?
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JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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6/14/2012 1:16:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 12:53:38 AM, OberHerr wrote:
Here, lemme ask you something. Say I have a crystal ball that allows me to see the future. I see that Mr. Brown is gonna accept my job offer.

So, when I ask him to join, and he says yes, does that mean it wasn't his choice?

Reaches into hat of responses:

A - God doesn't use a crystal ball. He knows what Mr. Brown is going to do because he forces him to do that, even though everything that talks about God actually states the opposite, and I'm just trying to use a really stupid interpretation of all-knowing to redefine the primary material to fit my argument.

B - Crystal balls are impossible, because data can't travel backward through time.

C - No, you are just seeing what God is forcing Mr. Brown to do, because I have already proven the God causes everything to happen by stating that God causes everything to happen. There can be no free will because if there isn't any free will then there isn't any free will.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Stephen_Hawkins
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6/14/2012 1:53:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
If God knows what I am going to do...
...
...
...
Can I do something else?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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JaxsonRaine
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6/14/2012 1:58:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:53:33 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
If God knows what I am going to do...
...
...
...
Can I do something else?

In other words, can you do something else besides what you are going to do?

No. You can't do something that you aren't going to do. If you end up doing it in the future, then it would be proper now to say that you are going to do it.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/14/2012 3:47:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Okay, I people who haven't got a clue what theists are talking about when they claim someone can freely choose an action that god already knows will take place should read this: http://www.iep.utm.edu... There are still further objections to raise, but this is the argument most of them are appealing to. It contains a bit of Logic, but nothing too complicated (and it's explained).
nowinterweather
Posts: 17
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6/14/2012 7:54:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 12:46:40 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:45:44 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:38:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:

God didn't design us as atheists or theists, He designed us with the ability to choose to accept or reject Him. I'm sorry that you wish to exclude consideration of free will, but you can't do that if you wish to argue the point accurately. We have the ability to choose. It's not a stretch to say that an omniscient God would know what choice we will make.

Fair enough, I'm tired, and I was in a hurry. But, the point still stands; if God is omniscient, then what relevance does free will hold if He does already know what choice we will make?

I don't see why people struggle with this concept.

Foreknowledge of an event DOES NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT equal being the cause of the event.

I can prove it too.

Next time you see something falling, you can know that it is going to hit the ground...

...before it hits the ground...

... without having caused it to hit the ground.



Ok, so lets move on.

P1 - God knows everything that is going to happen.
P2 - I am going to do X tomorrow.
C - God knows that I am going to do X tomorrow.

The conclusion is not a premise, it is not a cause. It is a result of God knowing the future. God knows what I am going to choose to do.

Lot's of interesting responses, I'll go ahead and respond to this one, since it seems to paraphrase what everyone wanted to say the best...

I think you're forgetting to add P3, "God created you," which would change the conclusion to "God created you knowing you will do X tomorrow." This seems to suggest at least a bit of malevolence on the part of God, and so far no one has sufficiently argued otherwise. He may not be the direct cause of the events, but he did create all of the causes knowing that they would be causes, which makes our choices entirely irrelevant.

I couldn't care less if your statement was the entire story, but it's when you introduce P3 that the contradiction starts to arise.

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to seeing more responses.
JaxsonRaine
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6/14/2012 10:17:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 7:54:29 AM, nowinterweather wrote:
I think you're forgetting to add P3, "God created you," which would change the conclusion to "God created you knowing you will do X tomorrow." This seems to suggest at least a bit of malevolence on the part of God, and so far no one has sufficiently argued otherwise. He may not be the direct cause of the events, but he did create all of the causes knowing that they would be causes, which makes our choices entirely irrelevant.

I couldn't care less if your statement was the entire story, but it's when you introduce P3 that the contradiction starts to arise.

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to seeing more responses.

P3 - God created me and gave me free will.
C - God created me knowing that I would choose to do X tomorrow.

He knows everything, so he knows the choices I will make, but I'm still the one making the choices.

You can't take free will out of the equation if you are talking about the Judeo-Christian God, because that is part of the concept.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
stubs
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6/14/2012 10:32:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:58:38 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 6/14/2012 1:53:33 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
If God knows what I am going to do...
...
...
...
Can I do something else?

In other words, can you do something else besides what you are going to do?

No. You can't do something that you aren't going to do. If you end up doing it in the future, then it would be proper now to say that you are going to do it.

exactly
JaxsonRaine
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6/14/2012 10:36:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 3:47:28 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Okay, I people who haven't got a clue what theists are talking about when they claim someone can freely choose an action that god already knows will take place should read this: http://www.iep.utm.edu... There are still further objections to raise, but this is the argument most of them are appealing to. It contains a bit of Logic, but nothing too complicated (and it's explained).

There is no need to complicate things. It simply comes down to whether or not foreknowledge = causation.

"Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual (let's say the Prime Minister of Canada), on Feb. 3, 2081, will put on brown shoes when dressing in the morning? If thou sayest ‘He knows', then it necessarily follows that the Prime Minister is compelled to act (that is, to put on brown shoes) as God knew beforehand he/she would, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect."

The following is a valid argument:

P1 - God knows what the Prime Minister is going to choose to do.
P2 - The Prime Minister is going to choose to wear brown shoes.
C1 - God knows the Prime Minister is going to choose to wear brown shoes.

The following is not a valid argument:

P1 - God knows what the Prime Minister is going to choose to do.
P2 - The Prime Ministers is going to choose to wear brown shoes.
C1 - God knows the Prime Minister is going to choose to wear brown shoes.
C2 - C1 is the cause of P2.

C2 is absolutely false. A conclusion must draw upon the premise, not the other way around.

The following is an invalid argument:

P1 - God knows what the Prime Minister is going to chose to do.
P2 - The Prime Minister is going to choose to wear brown shoes.
C - The Prime Minister didn't have a choice because God already knew it.

The conclusion ignores choice, which is required by both premises.

Cause and effect. Why does God know what we are going to do? If you say He made us that way with no free will, then of course we don't have choice. If He knows everything and gave us free will, then he knows what choices we will make, but they are still our choices, because the premise is that he gave us free will.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
nowinterweather
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6/14/2012 11:05:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 10:17:27 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:

P3 - God created me and gave me free will.
C - God created me knowing that I would choose to do X tomorrow.


He knows everything, so he knows the choices I will make, but I'm still the one making the choices.

You can't take free will out of the equation if you are talking about the Judeo-Christian God, because that is part of the concept.

Right, but if He creates us knowing which choices we will make, how is our free will relevant?
phantom
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6/14/2012 11:31:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:53:33 AM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
If God knows what I am going to do...
...
...
...
Can I do something else?

I would be eager to debate you on whether an omniscient God alleviates free-will if you want.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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6/14/2012 11:34:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 3:47:28 AM, Kinesis wrote:
Okay, I people who haven't got a clue what theists are talking about when they claim someone can freely choose an action that god already knows will take place should read this: http://www.iep.utm.edu... There are still further objections to raise, but this is the argument most of them are appealing to. It contains a bit of Logic, but nothing too complicated (and it's explained).

I'd also gladly debate you on whether God's omniscience alleviates free-will.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
THEBOMB
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6/14/2012 11:46:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Okay here is my perspective, God is omniscient, so he knows what you will do before you do it. But, you are still free to make the choice. He is not influencing your choice, he just knows what choice you will make. You still choose.
Dogknox
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6/14/2012 12:02:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:20:36 PM, SuburbiaSurvivor wrote:
At 6/13/2012 10:17:24 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
I just wrote this for yahoo answers, but I think everyone knows how that can go south pretty quickly. Copied from the site:

I'm a high school freshman, and with homework and all, I haven't had as much time to think this through as I'd like.

I don't want to base my recently-adopted unbelief on any false logic, so I'd appreciate if someone would check this for me. The following pertains specifically to what I have been taught about the God of the Bible at a non-denominational Presbyterian (make what you will of that) for the past three years:

In order for God to be God, he must be:

Omniscient (Hebrews 4:13, Isaiah 46:9–10 seem to support this in particular)
Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6)
Omnibenevolent (Romans 8:37-39, among many others)

I've yet to see anyone have any quarrel with any of the above.

In addition, I've been taught that the only feasible way to be admitted into heaven is to accept Jesus as a personal savior, although I understand that this is debated heavily amongst theologians and denominations alike.

Finally, God is the creator of all things, and has ultimate and unwavering judgement pertaining to a person's residency in heaven of hell (again, little to quarrel with here).

Now, after hearing all of this delivered in a sermon one Wednesday night (at my youth group), I began to wonder how the above could actually coexist. If God is omniscient, then, by definition, he knows everything; Isaiah 46:9-10 also seem to support that God knows everything about the future (I understand this falls under the umbrella of omniscience), if I remember the verse correctly. If God is also the omnipotent creator, then He must have designed atheists with the knowledge that they would reject Him; it then follows that God would ultimately know where a person "winds up" after death, since nothing escapes His knowledge. How, then, could God be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? It seems as if one must be dropped in order for the notion of God to even be logically consistent from a fundamental level.

It is better to have some good then no good at all.

SuburbiaSurvivor Hello I hope all is well!!
Right off..You said.. >>>>In addition, I've been taught that the only feasible way to be admitted into heaven is to accept Jesus as a personal savior, although I understand that this is debated heavily amongst theologians and denominations alike.
I reply>>> To enter heaven you MUST LOVE!!
Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered, "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

SEE verse # 28 Jesus can't LIE!!!

Dogknox
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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6/14/2012 12:28:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 11:05:32 AM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/14/2012 10:17:27 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:

P3 - God created me and gave me free will.
C - God created me knowing that I would choose to do X tomorrow.


He knows everything, so he knows the choices I will make, but I'm still the one making the choices.

You can't take free will out of the equation if you are talking about the Judeo-Christian God, because that is part of the concept.

Right, but if He creates us knowing which choices we will make, how is our free will relevant?

Because it's still our free will and our choices. Just because God knows what we will choose, doesn't mean we aren't the ones choosing. The real question is how does that make our free will irrelevant?

For instance, my son is right here with me. I can offer him a potato chip or my credit card, and tell him to pick one. I know him well enough to know he will pick the potato chip.

It doesn't mean I'm making the choice for him.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
nowinterweather
Posts: 17
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6/14/2012 1:01:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 12:28:37 PM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
At 6/14/2012 11:05:32 AM, nowinterweather wrote:
At 6/14/2012 10:17:27 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:

P3 - God created me and gave me free will.
C - God created me knowing that I would choose to do X tomorrow.


He knows everything, so he knows the choices I will make, but I'm still the one making the choices.

You can't take free will out of the equation if you are talking about the Judeo-Christian God, because that is part of the concept.

Right, but if He creates us knowing which choices we will make, how is our free will relevant?

Because it's still our free will and our choices. Just because God knows what we will choose, doesn't mean we aren't the ones choosing. The real question is how does that make our free will irrelevant?

For instance, my son is right here with me. I can offer him a potato chip or my credit card, and tell him to pick one. I know him well enough to know he will pick the potato chip.

It doesn't mean I'm making the choice for him.

I don't think the two examples can be equated; you didn't create your son with an absolute knowledge of which choice he would make before he could have made it, and then punish him eternally for making the choice. A better example would be this:

You create your son knowing that at a point in his life, you will offer him the choice to take your credit card or a potato chip. You also know which choice he will make before you create him.
Your son picks the potato chip.
Assuming this is the wrong choice: you punish him eternally.
Assuming this is the correct choice: you reward him infinitely.

Of course, that's not the exact scenario, but I believe it's close enough.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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6/14/2012 1:07:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 1:01:10 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
I don't think the two examples can be equated; you didn't create your son with an absolute knowledge of which choice he would make before he could have made it, and then punish him eternally for making the choice. A better example would be this:

First, 'punish eternally' isn't a universal understanding of sin. This gets more into interpretation than the concept of foreknowledge/free will.

Secondly, you have to remember that knowing what someone will choose isn't taking away their choice. It's not God's fault for creating me if I do something bad. It's my fault for doing the bad thing.

You create your son knowing that at a point in his life, you will offer him the choice to take your credit card or a potato chip. You also know which choice he will make before you create him.
Your son picks the potato chip.
Assuming this is the wrong choice: you punish him eternally.
Assuming this is the correct choice: you reward him infinitely.

Of course, that's not the exact scenario, but I believe it's close enough.

God creates us knowing what we will do, but he gives us all the same opportunity to make our own choices. He then rewards us if we do good and punishes us if we do bad. We make the choice, it is irrelevant whether or not he knows beforehand what we are going to do.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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6/14/2012 4:10:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/13/2012 10:17:24 PM, nowinterweather wrote:
I just wrote this for yahoo answers, but I think everyone knows how that can go south pretty quickly. Copied from the site:

I'm a high school freshman, and with homework and all, I haven't had as much time to think this through as I'd like.

I don't want to base my recently-adopted unbelief on any false logic, so I'd appreciate if someone would check this for me. The following pertains specifically to what I have been taught about the God of the Bible at a non-denominational Presbyterian (make what you will of that) for the past three years:

In order for God to be God, he must be:

Omniscient (Hebrews 4:13, Isaiah 46:9–10 seem to support this in particular)
Omnipotent (Revelation 19:6)
Omnibenevolent (Romans 8:37-39, among many others)

I've yet to see anyone have any quarrel with any of the above.

In addition, I've been taught that the only feasible way to be admitted into heaven is to accept Jesus as a personal savior, although I understand that this is debated heavily amongst theologians and denominations alike.

Finally, God is the creator of all things, and has ultimate and unwavering judgement pertaining to a person's residency in heaven of hell (again, little to quarrel with here).

Now, after hearing all of this delivered in a sermon one Wednesday night (at my youth group), I began to wonder how the above could actually coexist. If God is omniscient, then, by definition, he knows everything; Isaiah 46:9-10 also seem to support that God knows everything about the future (I understand this falls under the umbrella of omniscience), if I remember the verse correctly. If God is also the omnipotent creator, then He must have designed atheists with the knowledge that they would reject Him; it then follows that God would ultimately know where a person "winds up" after death, since nothing escapes His knowledge. How, then, could God be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? It seems as if one must be dropped in order for the notion of God to even be logically consistent from a fundamental level.

A couple of notes, in closing:

a. As I've stated, I understand the argument is based upon the idea that one can not be admitted into heaven without accepting and knowing Jesus Christ, a point which has been disputed and debated heavily. At the least, this argument applies to the God of my non-denominational Presbyterian Church.
b. Please don't try to introduce free will; it's asinine, and it can't logically coexist with the above.

I thank you for making it this far, if you did.

The Fool: Logic??
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Kinesis
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6/15/2012 7:26:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/14/2012 10:36:07 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
There is no need to complicate things. It simply comes down to whether or not foreknowledge = causation.

This isn't true. It doesn't have anything to do with causation. Let me provide an argument to the effect that foreknowledge precludes free will:

To be free, one must be able to choose from a number of actions in a certain situation.

Think of it as a 'branching' theory of freedom.

John Smith comes to a road at time T with 3 forks: 1, 2 and 3. If Smith has free will he could choose to walk down road 1, 2 or 3.

At time T-1 God knows than Smith will walk down road 2.

If Smith has the ability to walk down roads 1 or 3, he has the ability to make God hold a false belief - in other words, if Person A walks down road 1, God's belief that Smith will walk down road 2 is falsified.

This is impossible, since God is omniscient and holds no false beliefs.

Therefore, Smith does not have the ability to walk down roads 1 or 3.

Therefore, Smith does not have free will.
nowinterweather
Posts: 17
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6/15/2012 10:10:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/15/2012 7:26:47 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/14/2012 10:36:07 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
There is no need to complicate things. It simply comes down to whether or not foreknowledge = causation.

This isn't true. It doesn't have anything to do with causation. Let me provide an argument to the effect that foreknowledge precludes free will:

To be free, one must be able to choose from a number of actions in a certain situation.

Think of it as a 'branching' theory of freedom.

John Smith comes to a road at time T with 3 forks: 1, 2 and 3. If Smith has free will he could choose to walk down road 1, 2 or 3.

At time T-1 God knows than Smith will walk down road 2.

If Smith has the ability to walk down roads 1 or 3, he has the ability to make God hold a false belief - in other words, if Person A walks down road 1, God's belief that Smith will walk down road 2 is falsified.

This is impossible, since God is omniscient and holds no false beliefs.

Therefore, Smith does not have the ability to walk down roads 1 or 3.

Therefore, Smith does not have free will.

Thank you, Kinesis, for articulating that far better than I ever could.