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Free-Will

Paradox_7
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6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.

There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheOrator
Posts: 172
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6/16/2012 2:53:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

From my friend who's studying theology and planning on becoming a pastor, I've learned that the Divine Plan (which states that the universe and all the events within it are unfolding exactly how God planned it when he created everything) states that we all do things as God charted it out, including praying, eating, converting, sinning, etc. etc.
Well, he either said that or that it means God simply knows everything that's gonna happen in advance, I was kind of half-listening. But then again, if he just knows what's gonna happen and didn't make it happen that way, it wouldn't be much of a plan, would it?
My legend begins in the 12th century
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/16/2012 3:21:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:53:44 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

From my friend who's studying theology and planning on becoming a pastor, I've learned that the Divine Plan (which states that the universe and all the events within it are unfolding exactly how God planned it when he created everything) states that we all do things as God charted it out, including praying, eating, converting, sinning, etc. etc.
Well, he either said that or that it means God simply knows everything that's gonna happen in advance, I was kind of half-listening. But then again, if he just knows what's gonna happen and didn't make it happen that way, it wouldn't be much of a plan, would it?


Deffinately a plan, but a plan based on foreknowledge.

Not, foreknowledge of who would choose him, but knowledge of what would go down.. God created the world, knowing we would fall.. so, before he created it, he chose everyone one for a purpose of his; some for election(generally), some for wrath.

He knew, that we would not be able to act outside of our sinful nature, and knew everything we produce, would be contaminated with sin.

So, he had to place the holy spirit in those he chose(that ryhmed..lol), so that it would do good works for us, revealing the faith he placed in us, to others.. for his glory.

So.. no free-will..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/16/2012 3:36:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:29:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm confused, do you believe God created us for us, or for him?


He created us for him.

Each person, wether elect or not, serves a purpose that glorifies God.

For Example, Romans 9:16-17 -

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Obviously, Pharaoh, was not elect, and enslaved God's people.. so by allowing this figure to attain such a high position, utterly destroying him in the sea, and delivering his people, God showed his power, and thus glory was his.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheOrator
Posts: 172
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6/16/2012 3:39:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:21:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:53:44 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

From my friend who's studying theology and planning on becoming a pastor, I've learned that the Divine Plan (which states that the universe and all the events within it are unfolding exactly how God planned it when he created everything) states that we all do things as God charted it out, including praying, eating, converting, sinning, etc. etc.
Well, he either said that or that it means God simply knows everything that's gonna happen in advance, I was kind of half-listening. But then again, if he just knows what's gonna happen and didn't make it happen that way, it wouldn't be much of a plan, would it?


Deffinately a plan, but a plan based on foreknowledge.

Not, foreknowledge of who would choose him, but knowledge of what would go down.. God created the world, knowing we would fall.. so, before he created it, he chose everyone one for a purpose of his; some for election(generally), some for wrath.

He knew, that we would not be able to act outside of our sinful nature, and knew everything we produce, would be contaminated with sin.

So, he had to place the holy spirit in those he chose(that ryhmed..lol), so that it would do good works for us, revealing the faith he placed in us, to others.. for his glory.


So.. no free-will..

Hold on, he created us, but somehow the nature of those he created was completely out of his control, even though he knew it would happen before he did it?
My legend begins in the 12th century
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/16/2012 3:43:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:39:07 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:21:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:53:44 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

From my friend who's studying theology and planning on becoming a pastor, I've learned that the Divine Plan (which states that the universe and all the events within it are unfolding exactly how God planned it when he created everything) states that we all do things as God charted it out, including praying, eating, converting, sinning, etc. etc.
Well, he either said that or that it means God simply knows everything that's gonna happen in advance, I was kind of half-listening. But then again, if he just knows what's gonna happen and didn't make it happen that way, it wouldn't be much of a plan, would it?


Deffinately a plan, but a plan based on foreknowledge.

Not, foreknowledge of who would choose him, but knowledge of what would go down.. God created the world, knowing we would fall.. so, before he created it, he chose everyone one for a purpose of his; some for election(generally), some for wrath.

He knew, that we would not be able to act outside of our sinful nature, and knew everything we produce, would be contaminated with sin.

So, he had to place the holy spirit in those he chose(that ryhmed..lol), so that it would do good works for us, revealing the faith he placed in us, to others.. for his glory.


So.. no free-will..

Hold on, he created us, but somehow the nature of those he created was completely out of his control, even though he knew it would happen before he did it?


Huh?..

who said the nature of those he created was beyond his control?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/16/2012 3:44:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:36:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:29:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm confused, do you believe God created us for us, or for him?


He created us for him.

Each person, wether elect or not, serves a purpose that glorifies God.

For Example, Romans 9:16-17 -

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Obviously, Pharaoh, was not elect, and enslaved God's people.. so by allowing this figure to attain such a high position, utterly destroying him in the sea, and delivering his people, God showed his power, and thus glory was his.

It just seems strange to me, that a perfect being would create us to satisfy him. If he is perfect, wouldn't his perfection be perfectly satisfying? If he is perfectly satisfied because he is perfect, then there cannot be any improvements to this satisfaction (improving perfection is contradictory), thus the idea that he created us for some purpose disproves the idea that he is a perfect being in the first place. A perfect being doesn't want or need anything, it's satisfied with it's perfection.
TheOrator
Posts: 172
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6/16/2012 3:46:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:43:34 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:39:07 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:21:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:53:44 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

From my friend who's studying theology and planning on becoming a pastor, I've learned that the Divine Plan (which states that the universe and all the events within it are unfolding exactly how God planned it when he created everything) states that we all do things as God charted it out, including praying, eating, converting, sinning, etc. etc.
Well, he either said that or that it means God simply knows everything that's gonna happen in advance, I was kind of half-listening. But then again, if he just knows what's gonna happen and didn't make it happen that way, it wouldn't be much of a plan, would it?


Deffinately a plan, but a plan based on foreknowledge.

Not, foreknowledge of who would choose him, but knowledge of what would go down.. God created the world, knowing we would fall.. so, before he created it, he chose everyone one for a purpose of his; some for election(generally), some for wrath.

He knew, that we would not be able to act outside of our sinful nature, and knew everything we produce, would be contaminated with sin.

So, he had to place the holy spirit in those he chose(that ryhmed..lol), so that it would do good works for us, revealing the faith he placed in us, to others.. for his glory.


So.. no free-will..

Hold on, he created us, but somehow the nature of those he created was completely out of his control, even though he knew it would happen before he did it?


Huh?..

who said the nature of those he created was beyond his control?

"He knew, that we would not be able to act outside of our sinful nature, and knew everything we produce, would be contaminated with sin"

I might have just misunderstood your meaning, but it sounded to me as though even though he wants us to do good, he knew that our sinful nature would keep us from doing it. However, he didn't remove this sinful nature, so I assumed you meant it was out of his control.
My legend begins in the 12th century
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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6/16/2012 3:52:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...


Just a quick question about this part. If God made us with only the will/need to sin, instead of the will/need to do good; Doesn't that make God seem like a maximally evil being instead of a maximally great being?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/16/2012 3:58:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:44:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:36:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:29:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm confused, do you believe God created us for us, or for him?


He created us for him.

Each person, wether elect or not, serves a purpose that glorifies God.

For Example, Romans 9:16-17 -

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Obviously, Pharaoh, was not elect, and enslaved God's people.. so by allowing this figure to attain such a high position, utterly destroying him in the sea, and delivering his people, God showed his power, and thus glory was his.

It just seems strange to me, that a perfect being would create us to satisfy him. If he is perfect, wouldn't his perfection be perfectly satisfying? If he is perfectly satisfied because he is perfect, then there cannot be any improvements to this satisfaction (improving perfection is contradictory), thus the idea that he created us for some purpose disproves the idea that he is a perfect being in the first place. A perfect being doesn't want or need anything, it's satisfied with it's perfection.


This is a bit off topic.. but i will respond anyway.

It's all a matter of your concept, of a perfect being. I don't believe i ever said God created us to further his satisfaction... Cause, i have no idea what the purpose behind our exsistence is, outside of God claiming it's for his glory.

But, i think it's still compatible to create things, for fun, glory, sh*ts n giggles, and be perfectly satisfied as is..

I dont' think this is an argument against God's perfection, i believe it's an understanding of perfection, that you need.

God, must have a personality (no direct proof), because Christ, was human like us.. he lauged, cried, joked, drank, etc etc. He knew everything, but was still very content with living and enjoying others company.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/16/2012 3:59:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:44:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:36:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:29:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm confused, do you believe God created us for us, or for him?


He created us for him.

Each person, wether elect or not, serves a purpose that glorifies God.

For Example, Romans 9:16-17 -

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Obviously, Pharaoh, was not elect, and enslaved God's people.. so by allowing this figure to attain such a high position, utterly destroying him in the sea, and delivering his people, God showed his power, and thus glory was his.

It just seems strange to me, that a perfect being would create us to satisfy him. If he is perfect, wouldn't his perfection be perfectly satisfying? If he is perfectly satisfied because he is perfect, then there cannot be any improvements to this satisfaction (improving perfection is contradictory), thus the idea that he created us for some purpose disproves the idea that he is a perfect being in the first place. A perfect being doesn't want or need anything, it's satisfied with it's perfection.

At 6/16/2012 3:44:27 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:36:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/16/2012 3:29:28 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I'm confused, do you believe God created us for us, or for him?


He created us for him.

Each person, wether elect or not, serves a purpose that glorifies God.

For Example, Romans 9:16-17 -

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Obviously, Pharaoh, was not elect, and enslaved God's people.. so by allowing this figure to attain such a high position, utterly destroying him in the sea, and delivering his people, God showed his power, and thus glory was his.

It just seems strange to me, that a perfect being would create us to satisfy him. If he is perfect, wouldn't his perfection be perfectly satisfying? If he is perfectly satisfied because he is perfect, then there cannot be any improvements to this satisfaction (improving perfection is contradictory), thus the idea that he created us for some purpose disproves the idea that he is a perfect being in the first place. A perfect being doesn't want or need anything, it's satisfied with it's perfection.


This is a bit off topic.. but i will respond anyway.

It's all a matter of your concept, of a perfect being. I don't believe i ever said God created us to further his satisfaction... Cause, i have no idea what the purpose behind our exsistence is, outside of God claiming it's for his glory.

But, i think it's still compatible to create things, for fun, glory, sh*ts n giggles, and be perfectly satisfied as is..

I dont' think this is an argument against God's perfection, i believe it's an understanding of perfection, that you need.

God, must have a personality (no direct proof), because Christ, was human like us.. he lauged, cried, joked, drank, etc etc. He knew everything, but was still very content with living and enjoying others company.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/16/2012 4:01:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 3:52:05 PM, stubs wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...


Just a quick question about this part. If God made us with only the will/need to sin, instead of the will/need to do good; Doesn't that make God seem like a maximally evil being instead of a maximally great being?


yes, if he created us with only the will/need to sin..

But he didn't: Adam & Eve, were innocent and sinless... "They" caused us to be sinful.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/16/2012 4:43:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

Free will is the curse; being locked into God's will means we can only do good.. He gave Adam the choice (1 choice, not free will) to reject His will; now we can do anything including the most heinous of crimes imaginable..

However, God is using this to glorify His holy name: that only by relying on His Spirit in us can we overcome Sin because He overcame on the cross, by His LOVE.
The Cross.. the Cross.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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6/16/2012 6:27:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

In my opinion, we have the free will to do whatever we wish to do, because it is in our human nature. I believe God created the world, and we inherited our free will through evolution. I don't think it is necessary to mention that humans have free will in the bible because it is a given. We have free will. For example, I chose to reply to this post because I wanted to give my opinion. I didn't, however reply because I'm a zombie and God planned it all out as such. Same goes for any example of free will. We all have the opportunity to choose whether to do something or not. If we were zombies, there would be no thought put any thought towards what we do, we would just do things. So yes, we have free will even though the bible doesn't mention it. Remember, the bible is a man made creation. Men wrote the book, not God. So don't take everything written in it litterally. And don't think that because it isn't written in the bible, then it must be a certain way. If God wrote it himself, we would have everything we need to know in the book. But that obviously isn't the case.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/18/2012 8:52:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 6:27:28 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

In my opinion, we have the free will to do whatever we wish to do, because it is in our human nature. I believe God created the world, and we inherited our free will through evolution. I don't think it is necessary to mention that humans have free will in the bible because it is a given. We have free will. For example, I chose to reply to this post because I wanted to give my opinion. I didn't, however reply because I'm a zombie and God planned it all out as such. Same goes for any example of free will. We all have the opportunity to choose whether to do something or not. If we were zombies, there would be no thought put any thought towards what we do, we would just do things. So yes, we have free will even though the bible doesn't mention it. Remember, the bible is a man made creation. Men wrote the book, not God. So don't take everything written in it litterally. And don't think that because it isn't written in the bible, then it must be a certain way. If God wrote it himself, we would have everything we need to know in the book. But that obviously isn't the case.

Genesis 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


Here we see God's will is not a 'free for all'..

Do you believe that we should have total free will? that we should rape and murder?

No, you do not. Free will is a curse; it is slavery.

To be free is to be the servant of a benevolent King: Jesus Christ.
The Cross.. the Cross.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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6/18/2012 9:50:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 8:52:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/16/2012 6:27:28 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

In my opinion, we have the free will to do whatever we wish to do, because it is in our human nature. I believe God created the world, and we inherited our free will through evolution. I don't think it is necessary to mention that humans have free will in the bible because it is a given. We have free will. For example, I chose to reply to this post because I wanted to give my opinion. I didn't, however reply because I'm a zombie and God planned it all out as such. Same goes for any example of free will. We all have the opportunity to choose whether to do something or not. If we were zombies, there would be no thought put any thought towards what we do, we would just do things. So yes, we have free will even though the bible doesn't mention it. Remember, the bible is a man made creation. Men wrote the book, not God. So don't take everything written in it litterally. And don't think that because it isn't written in the bible, then it must be a certain way. If God wrote it himself, we would have everything we need to know in the book. But that obviously isn't the case.

Genesis 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


Here we see God's will is not a 'free for all'..

God's will is one thing, ours is completely another one.


Do you believe that we should have total free will? that we should rape and murder?

Doesn't matter what I believe, the fact is we do have free will. Murder and rape take place every day. Should we commit such horrendous acts? Of course not. But do they happen? Obviously they do. So what's your point? God gave us free will to do good and evil, like it or not.


No, you do not. Free will is a curse; it is slavery.

To be free is to be the servant of a benevolent King: Jesus Christ.

Free will is a curse huh? Well, we have it, and if you believe in God, you must believe he gave it to us. Like it or not, we choose to sin. Just as we choose to do good.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/18/2012 12:04:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 9:50:10 AM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/18/2012 8:52:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/16/2012 6:27:28 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

In my opinion, we have the free will to do whatever we wish to do, because it is in our human nature. I believe God created the world, and we inherited our free will through evolution. I don't think it is necessary to mention that humans have free will in the bible because it is a given. We have free will. For example, I chose to reply to this post because I wanted to give my opinion. I didn't, however reply because I'm a zombie and God planned it all out as such. Same goes for any example of free will. We all have the opportunity to choose whether to do something or not. If we were zombies, there would be no thought put any thought towards what we do, we would just do things. So yes, we have free will even though the bible doesn't mention it. Remember, the bible is a man made creation. Men wrote the book, not God. So don't take everything written in it litterally. And don't think that because it isn't written in the bible, then it must be a certain way. If God wrote it himself, we would have everything we need to know in the book. But that obviously isn't the case.

Genesis 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


Here we see God's will is not a 'free for all'..

God's will is one thing, ours is completely another one.

Yes, because 'ours' is really satans dressed up as ours..

Do you believe that we should have total free will? that we should rape and murder?

Doesn't matter what I believe, the fact is we do have free will. Murder and rape take place every day. Should we commit such horrendous acts? Of course not. But do they happen? Obviously they do. So what's your point? God gave us free will to do good and evil, like it or not.

My point is that free will is in and of itself evil; there is no sin in heaven (that is what defines heaven) and so there cannot be truly free will there..

No, you do not. Free will is a curse; it is slavery.

To be free is to be the servant of a benevolent King: Jesus Christ.

Free will is a curse huh? Well, we have it, and if you believe in God, you must believe he gave it to us. Like it or not, we choose to sin. Just as we choose to do good.

He gave us the option to choose free will with the strongest possible warning:

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


This 'knowledge of good and evil' is to make ourselves a judge of what is right or wrong for us..

So we say murder is wrong but abortion is ok..

We say the Bible is Gods word but women may preach..

You get the idea..
The Cross.. the Cross.
wierdman
Posts: 721
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6/18/2012 1:53:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
What say you!?

in my personal opinion, free will exists in a very limited but present way. Our society plays a huge role on what we do and how we react to a certain situation (look at Stanford's jail experiment). In the same way, we are responsible for our actions in regards to the choices that we make. Society provides us with a group of options in which we are giving the ability to choose from and as such....free will is formed.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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6/18/2012 5:00:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 12:04:21 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/18/2012 9:50:10 AM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/18/2012 8:52:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/16/2012 6:27:28 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

In my opinion, we have the free will to do whatever we wish to do, because it is in our human nature. I believe God created the world, and we inherited our free will through evolution. I don't think it is necessary to mention that humans have free will in the bible because it is a given. We have free will. For example, I chose to reply to this post because I wanted to give my opinion. I didn't, however reply because I'm a zombie and God planned it all out as such. Same goes for any example of free will. We all have the opportunity to choose whether to do something or not. If we were zombies, there would be no thought put any thought towards what we do, we would just do things. So yes, we have free will even though the bible doesn't mention it. Remember, the bible is a man made creation. Men wrote the book, not God. So don't take everything written in it litterally. And don't think that because it isn't written in the bible, then it must be a certain way. If God wrote it himself, we would have everything we need to know in the book. But that obviously isn't the case.

Genesis 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


Here we see God's will is not a 'free for all'..

God's will is one thing, ours is completely another one.

Yes, because 'ours' is really satans dressed up as ours..

So our will to do good is really satan's will?


Do you believe that we should have total free will? that we should rape and murder?

Doesn't matter what I believe, the fact is we do have free will. Murder and rape take place every day. Should we commit such horrendous acts? Of course not. But do they happen? Obviously they do. So what's your point? God gave us free will to do good and evil, like it or not.

My point is that free will is in and of itself evil; there is no sin in heaven (that is what defines heaven) and so there cannot be truly free will there..

There is no sin in heaven because we are no longer human in heaven. You cannot "murder" a spirit or ghost.


No, you do not. Free will is a curse; it is slavery.

To be free is to be the servant of a benevolent King: Jesus Christ.

Free will is a curse huh? Well, we have it, and if you believe in God, you must believe he gave it to us. Like it or not, we choose to sin. Just as we choose to do good.

He gave us the option to choose free will with the strongest possible warning:

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


The story of the Garden of Eden was a myth, a story to explain a few things, like the first humans, how a creation of God can have evil tendancies, etc. Logically speaking, it couldn't have happened. Humans have always been flawed, capable of doing evil. We don't need the bible to tell us this.


This 'knowledge of good and evil' is to make ourselves a judge of what is right or wrong for us..

So we say murder is wrong but abortion is ok..

Who are "we"? I believe both murder and abortion are atrocious.


We say the Bible is Gods word but women may preach..

Women cannot preach in the Catholic church. Out of curiousity, what religion do you belong to?


You get the idea..

No, I really don't.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/19/2012 4:41:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:00:12 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/18/2012 12:04:21 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/18/2012 9:50:10 AM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/18/2012 8:52:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/16/2012 6:27:28 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

In my opinion, we have the free will to do whatever we wish to do, because it is in our human nature. I believe God created the world, and we inherited our free will through evolution. I don't think it is necessary to mention that humans have free will in the bible because it is a given. We have free will. For example, I chose to reply to this post because I wanted to give my opinion. I didn't, however reply because I'm a zombie and God planned it all out as such. Same goes for any example of free will. We all have the opportunity to choose whether to do something or not. If we were zombies, there would be no thought put any thought towards what we do, we would just do things. So yes, we have free will even though the bible doesn't mention it. Remember, the bible is a man made creation. Men wrote the book, not God. So don't take everything written in it litterally. And don't think that because it isn't written in the bible, then it must be a certain way. If God wrote it himself, we would have everything we need to know in the book. But that obviously isn't the case.

Genesis 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


Here we see God's will is not a 'free for all'..

God's will is one thing, ours is completely another one.

Yes, because 'ours' is really satans dressed up as ours..

So our will to do good is really satan's will?

Give me an example of a righteous act, please.

Do you believe that we should have total free will? that we should rape and murder?

Doesn't matter what I believe, the fact is we do have free will. Murder and rape take place every day. Should we commit such horrendous acts? Of course not. But do they happen? Obviously they do. So what's your point? God gave us free will to do good and evil, like it or not.

My point is that free will is in and of itself evil; there is no sin in heaven (that is what defines heaven) and so there cannot be truly free will there..

There is no sin in heaven because we are no longer human in heaven. You cannot "murder" a spirit or ghost.

So, even if we allow that the Spirit world is less solid than our own (I do not) then God has taken away the possibilty of murder, thus lessening our freedom..

No, you do not. Free will is a curse; it is slavery.

To be free is to be the servant of a benevolent King: Jesus Christ.

Free will is a curse huh? Well, we have it, and if you believe in God, you must believe he gave it to us. Like it or not, we choose to sin. Just as we choose to do good.

He gave us the option to choose free will with the strongest possible warning:

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."


The story of the Garden of Eden was a myth, a story to explain a few things, like the first humans, how a creation of God can have evil tendancies, etc. Logically speaking, it couldn't have happened. Humans have always been flawed, capable of doing evil. We don't need the bible to tell us this.

This is a statement, not an argument; WHY is it not logical?

This 'knowledge of good and evil' is to make ourselves a judge of what is right or wrong for us..

So we say murder is wrong but abortion is ok..

Who are "we"? I believe both murder and abortion are atrocious.

And yet you live under an authority and are surrounded by those who judge differently..

We say the Bible is Gods word but women may preach..

Women cannot preach in the Catholic church. Out of curiousity, what religion do you belong to?

I'm a Christian, cast out of the Pentecostal Church (for being Biblical) and now attend all Churches, including Catholic.. Christ has only One body.

You get the idea..

No, I really don't.

Catholics also judge for themselves that it is correct to pray to Mary, a dead sinner.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/19/2012 5:54:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/19/2012 4:41:36 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
I'm a Christian, cast out of the Pentecostal Church (for being Biblical) and now attend all Churches, including Catholic.. Christ has only One body.
It's nice to see you attend a Catholic Church! You are on the right path!

Catholics also judge for themselves that it is correct to pray to Mary, a dead sinner.
The Virgin Marry is NOT a dead sinner! She is the Immaculate Conception: born free of original sin. God chose a "clean" vessel. Even Martin Luther said: "Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." Also, Mary did not die and ascended to heaven.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/19/2012 6:13:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/19/2012 5:54:41 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/19/2012 4:41:36 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
I'm a Christian, cast out of the Pentecostal Church (for being Biblical) and now attend all Churches, including Catholic.. Christ has only One body.
It's nice to see you attend a Catholic Church! You are on the right path!

Catholics also judge for themselves that it is correct to pray to Mary, a dead sinner.
The Virgin Marry is NOT a dead sinner! She is the Immaculate Conception: born free of original sin. God chose a "clean" vessel. Even Martin Luther said: "Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil." Also, Mary did not die and ascended to heaven.


BAHAHAHAHAH!!!.. im sorry.. did you just say that mary wasn't a sinner?

can you say, heretic?

"Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil."

This, can be said of all who are saved bud. God's grace is almost the entire point of this thread.. If you confess Christ, it's because of God's Grace, and if you are clothed in Christs Righteousness, God views you as a Saint. We are justified by Christ, through Gods method of election.. so that we can be made new: Without sin.

This is what luther is saying.

You really jacked that quote up.. lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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6/19/2012 8:23:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/19/2012 4:41:36 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Give me an example of a righteous act, please.

Definition of "righteous" according to merriam webster-"Free from guilt or sin ". So a righteous act could be anything from helping an old lady cross the street, to donating blood, to lending a friend or family member some money...I could go on for ages. None of those I mentioned are evil, and are in accordance with the definition of "righteous".

So, even if we allow that the Spirit world is less solid than our own (I do not) then God has taken away the possibilty of murder, thus lessening our freedom..

I haven't the slightest idea of what the spirit world is like, if such thing exists (I like to think it does). But if we have no bodies to be killed, then yes, murder is impossible. Heaven is supposed to be a place where you go after death, as a reward for a good life. I don't know if such place exists, but what I have read is that you go to purgatory to wash away your human nature of sin, and when you're cleansed you go to heaven, when you are 100% pure and good. I don't know if this is true, I'm just throwing this out there, as it is what I was taught. I don't think our freedoms are being lessened, so to speak, we are simply changing form, where the possibility of murder is gone because we are no longer human.

This is a statement, not an argument; WHY is it not logical?

It is illogical, for several reasons. First, the earth is a lot older than the bible teaches. Adam and Eve were not the first humans on earth. Second, the Garden of Eden is no where to be found. Some say it's in Iraq, others say it got washed away in the great flood (which likely wasn't as "great" as taught in the bible).

But the biggest problems I have the story of Adam and Eve are that, one, if Eve was capable of disobeying God, then weren't we already flawed? I was taught (and this is just me) that we were perfect and without sin (we as in the human species) until Eve disobeyed God. But by possessing the ability and the free will to do as she pleased, then we, by logic, were already flawed. Secondly, I have heard that the Garden of Eden was really heaven, that Adam and Eve, while still perfect, had access to come and go as they pleased. If this is the truth, then why was satan allowed in the Garden, if he was supposedly cast out of heaven? Doesn't make sense.

Furthermore, I don't like the idea of blaming the supernatural for our imperfection. What I mean is, blaming Eve's disobedience on the serpent. If satan could temp Eve, then logically speaking, he is tempting all of us when we sin. When I sin, however, I don't see a serpent, or hear the voice of the devil telling me to do it, I hear my conscience, telling me it's wrong and my body telling me it's right.

My point in all of this is, the Garden of Eden didn't happen, but was just a myth used to explain the creation of the world and why we have the tendancy to do evil.

And yet you live under an authority and are surrounded by those who judge differently..

Yes, I live under an authority. Several, in fact. And what's your point? And yes, there are those who have different opinions. Part of free will, the free will to have an opinion on everything.

I'm a Christian, cast out of the Pentecostal Church (for being Biblical) and now attend all Churches, including Catholic.. Christ has only One body.

I have the same view on God, which is why I don't associate myself with any religion. While they all have good things to teach, I don't see any one religion as the one truth. And so I don't limit myself to one religions teachings because there is not one that I find to be 100% true, or even close. I believe what I believe to be true. My point is, if you are having trouble finding something that you find the truth, broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. I did, and things have been getting better for me ever since. I have stopped blaming God for everything, and expecting God to do everything for me, and it has really helped me. Just an idea.

Catholics also judge for themselves that it is correct to pray to Mary, a dead sinner.

Catholics believe something different than you or I, yes. But people tend to mix the meaning of praying to Mary. They pray to her so that she may ask God to intercede in their lifes to help them in some way. They are not worshipping her.

As an ending note, I just want to let it be known that I am not anti Christian in any way, I may come across as that way, but believe me, I have nothing against it. Just didn't want any misunderstanding.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
SuburbiaSurvivor
Posts: 872
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6/19/2012 8:28:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
You, sir, have just validated the Problem of Evil.
"I'm going to tell you something that you're never going to forget, SuburbiaSurvivor. Women... Are just human beings"
Websterremembered
Posts: 95
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6/24/2012 2:00:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

I think that your context is puzzling indeed
a) you leave no option for an explanation besides something given ie god given will
b) you ask an ether or question without giving others a chance to elaborate with an open ended statement/question
c) if god indeed gave man free will then we are free, if not then we apparently can't tell the difference making what you ask essentially inconclusive.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/25/2012 9:39:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/19/2012 6:13:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
"Mary is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil."

This, can be said of all who are saved bud.
Right. Because once people are saved, they are entirely without sin! Right. So all I need to do is get saved and then I can have free-for-all! Brilliant!

God's grace is almost the entire point of this thread.. If you confess Christ, it's because of God's Grace, and if you are clothed in Christs Righteousness, God views you as a Saint. We are justified by Christ, through Gods method of election.. so that we can be made new: Without sin.
Equivocate much?

This is what luther is saying.

You really jacked that quote up.. lol
Yes, that's why he later changed his tune: "Mary is conceived in sin just like us." Right.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Invalid
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6/25/2012 11:45:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/16/2012 2:53:44 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

From my friend who's studying theology and planning on becoming a pastor, I've learned that the Divine Plan (which states that the universe and all the events within it are unfolding exactly how God planned it when he created everything) states that we all do things as God charted it out, including praying, eating, converting, sinning, etc. etc.
Well, he either said that or that it means God simply knows everything that's gonna happen in advance, I was kind of half-listening. But then again, if he just knows what's gonna happen and didn't make it happen that way, it wouldn't be much of a plan, would it?

What you're saying is that God is responsible for everything we do. Including our evil actions. Does that not make him malevolent?
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
- Christopher Hitchens
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/25/2012 1:31:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/24/2012 2:00:30 PM, Websterremembered wrote:
At 6/16/2012 2:45:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just wanted to clarify, and get your thoughts on this.


There is nothing biblical, in context, that suggest we have free-will; that is, will to do good, or will to accept Christ. Our will's, are only bound to sin, and our need to sin.

So, we are, in a sense, zombies to sin...

Do you believe, we have free-will, and the God simply give you the oppotunity to choose him?

Or did he choose for us, and our will, is actually not free at all?

What say you!?

I think that your context is puzzling indeed
a) you leave no option for an explanation besides something given ie god given will

To a point; i must not have made.

But this is the beauty of it.. there is no other option. Those scriptures pin salvation and condemnation on the will of God a lone. I expect somebody to present a scripture, that either contradicts this [in a way that reveals a more apparent truth], and introduce a clearer understanding for everyone; if not only for me.

I do not believe it's possible, but i encourage you, or anyone else, to try.

b) you ask an ether or question without giving others a chance to elaborate with an open ended statement/question

I don't understand how i can keep someone from elaborating?..

If you are simply confused, i'll re-state the questions...

Do you believe God gave us the free-will to choose Good / choose Him? (our will)

OR

Do you agree with me, that God, knowing no one would choose him, selected a few, and used the rest for his purposes, toward his glorious grace- and ultimately for condemnation? (God's will)

c) if god indeed gave man free will then we are free, if not then we apparently can't tell the difference making what you ask essentially inconclusive.

lol..uhh.. i can tell the difference. and apparently, so did Paul:

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

We see Paul stumble across his limited will; on top of the fact we're no-ones moving things with their mind, flying, or walking on water...

If we can't do good, or a plethora of other things: we have no Free-will. (much like God inability sin-- even his will isn't free, he must be perfect)

Not inconclusive. Eye opening.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
elvroin_vonn_trazem
Posts: 99
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6/25/2012 1:56:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For Free Will to exist, there must also exist a way to violate the Law of Cause and Effect. Otherwise every action is nothing more than something Caused by prior events, one way or another (philosophy of "Determinism").

As it happens, modern Physics, in the branch known as Quantum Mechanics, has discovered that total randomness exists at the foundations of the Universe. Look up the "Bell Inequality Experiments" for details. This basically means that it is indeed possible for various Events to have no Cause that is in any way associated with Determinism.

It does not automatically follow that the Universe is totally random, since, in general, randomness tends to "average out" or "cancel out". We see the Law of Cause and Effect mostly ruling the Universe, as a result.

Nevertheless, small Effects can occasionally accumulate. One example is Gravitation. The force of electrostatic repulsion between two electrons is about 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than the gravitational force between those electrons, yet Gravitation dominates the Universe (electric forces tend to cancel out).

It is known that living cells have biological structures small enough to be influenced by the total randomness of Quantum Mechanics. When the cells are nerve cells, this can sometimes lead to spontaneous triggering of nervous-system signals. And Evolution takes advantage of EVERY aspect of biology. For example, a rabbit that can jump in totally random directions has a better chance of escaping a fox, than if the rabbit jumped in predictable directions.

For humans, this aspect of biology can allow Free Will to exist, regardless of whether or not God exists. (If you want to believe in souls, then, simply because souls not bodies are made in God's Image, souls have Free Will because God has it.)

Despite some of the stuff in previous posts to this Thread, Free Will is not about Actions so much as Ideas. Very often people act in accordance with habits. Free Will allows old habits to be broken, and new habits to be created.

When some particular action lies outside the realm of the habitual, then a person often takes time to think about what Choice will be made. In general, you don't Act in such situations without a preceding Idea regarding that action. So, you can contemplate committing murder without actually doing that Act, but, by definition, never does an actual formally-describable-as-a-murder-Act occur without prior contemplation. (That's why there are other crimes, such as "manslaughter".)

Constraints regarding what you actually do in life are unrelated to the fundamental Free-Will-based ability to think about various actions.

Regarding God's omniscience, that is a Lie. OK, it is actually a Stupid Pronouncement Made By Stupid Religions, something they often stupidly do before all the facts are in. In this case, "Gödel's Proof" showed that it is mathematically impossible to know everything. (Which, in my opinion, is a Good Thing, because it gives even God something to do, eternally, that isn't repetitive/boring.)

This is not to say that God isn't extremely good at making statistics-based probability-predictions that are generally reliable over the long term (like setting off the Big Bang and knowing that intelligent life would eventually evolve, no other Acts of Creation required). But knowing every little detail for a certainty, in advance, is impossible, not just because of Gödel's Proof, but also because of the total randomness at the foundation of the universe --in the Big-Bang-to-intelligence prediction, one of the unpredictable details was that the human eyeball can suffer "retinal detachment", while the differently-evolved octopus eye is immune to that problem. Regardless of that flaw, the mammalian eyeball works quite-well-enough, thank you, for it to not have been detrimental to the evolution of intelligence. See?
Don't tell me God is smart, and then describe to me the actions of a moron. A truly smart God is not going to do things that way!