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'Free Will' - God Style

Spaghettim0nst3r
Posts: 366
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8/18/2009 11:33:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
http://www.youtube.com...

This guy does a good series explaining the Christian version of freewill.

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:

Theme: This approach to breaking down the myth of freewill in Christianity explores the subject from a different angle. While the most popular method of criticizing freewill in Christianity is to point out a contradiction between omniscience and volition, this dissects the issue by pointing out that a choice with a severe ultimatum isn't a choice, but a threat. As he points out, this version of freewill is no different than blackmail or extortion.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/18/2009 11:59:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
All true points, all hammered home nicely. Kudos on the author.

It is a false choice. It is exactly like part of the first video stated; ""Save me from what?" "Save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in."

That is not a choice, that is coercion; that is a falsity; that is a lie. If God really meant for us to be free, if He really meant for us to be independent of Him, He wouldn't put such false choice on the table for us.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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8/19/2009 6:39:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
While I find that the first two videos are good, I have yet to watch the third as they are extremely repetitive - one suffices to get the message across.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Spaghettim0nst3r
Posts: 366
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8/19/2009 10:35:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/19/2009 6:39:35 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
While I find that the first two videos are good, I have yet to watch the third as they are extremely repetitive - one suffices to get the message across.

Parts 1 and 2 are basically the same thing. They give examples of how this version of "free will" would be viewed if put into the perspective of every day choices.

Part 3 is different, it takes a peak into the mind of the god of Christianity and attempts to give an alternative on what free will would be like if the christian god were to offer it.

Part 3 is the best imo.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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8/20/2009 9:49:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Most of his videos are great for a laugh. I'd never seen these, though. Thanks =D
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/21/2009 7:36:47 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
In a sense the curse or fall of mankind IS free-will.
Adam and Eve had limited choices: One of those choices led to unlimited choice.
Unlimited choice necessarily involves the ability murder, rape, commit incest etc etc..
We cannot stay connected (spiritually) to an utterly good, just and holy God in this condition; hence we 'fell' from His grace into the hands of the 'god of this world'.

By one man's disobedience we are condemned.. and by One Man's obedience, even to a shameful death on a cross, are we saved.
The Cross.. the Cross.
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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8/21/2009 8:34:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
But given time and human nature, even a non-omniscient being could tell that they would eat the fruit. They can only not be curious for so long. It's their/our nature.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
Spaghettim0nst3r
Posts: 366
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8/21/2009 7:51:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/21/2009 7:36:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
In a sense the curse or fall of mankind IS free-will.
Adam and Eve had limited choices: One of those choices led to unlimited choice.
Unlimited choice necessarily involves the ability murder, rape, commit incest etc etc..
We cannot stay connected (spiritually) to an utterly good, just and holy God in this condition; hence we 'fell' from His grace into the hands of the 'god of this world'.

By one man's disobedience we are condemned.. and by One Man's obedience, even to a shameful death on a cross, are we saved.

haha!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSHHH!

..you missed it again Dat. Grats buddy.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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8/24/2009 8:43:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/21/2009 7:51:19 PM, Spaghettim0nst3r wrote:
At 8/21/2009 7:36:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
In a sense the curse or fall of mankind IS free-will.
Adam and Eve had limited choices: One of those choices led to unlimited choice.
Unlimited choice necessarily involves the ability murder, rape, commit incest etc etc..
We cannot stay connected (spiritually) to an utterly good, just and holy God in this condition; hence we 'fell' from His grace into the hands of the 'god of this world'.

By one man's disobedience we are condemned.. and by One Man's obedience, even to a shameful death on a cross, are we saved.

haha!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSHHH!

..you missed it again Dat. Grats buddy.

On the contrary.. Shall we debate free-will? I see you've STILL not had one!
The Cross.. the Cross.
youngdebater
Posts: 28
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9/3/2009 8:17:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/21/2009 7:51:19 PM, Spaghettim0nst3r wrote:
At 8/21/2009 7:36:47 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
In a sense the curse or fall of mankind IS free-will.
Adam and Eve had limited choices: One of those choices led to unlimited choice.
Unlimited choice necessarily involves the ability murder, rape, commit incest etc etc..
We cannot stay connected (spiritually) to an utterly good, just and holy God in this condition; hence we 'fell' from His grace into the hands of the 'god of this world'.

By one man's disobedience we are condemned.. and by One Man's obedience, even to a shameful death on a cross, are we saved.

haha!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSHHH!


thats exactly what i though ofon every single one of dat's responses.
..you missed it again Dat. Grats buddy.
AnimeFanTony
Posts: 1,129
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9/3/2009 8:38:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
DAT I will debate you on free will if you would like.
Ownership of this account has been transferred from JCMT to I-am-a-panda.
Updates of the next JCMT puppet account pending.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/3/2009 9:48:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/3/2009 8:38:35 PM, AnimeFanTony wrote:
DAT I will debate you on free will if you would like.

Remember that he doesn't accept debate challenges because he's a coward...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/4/2009 7:43:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/3/2009 9:48:28 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/3/2009 8:38:35 PM, AnimeFanTony wrote:
DAT I will debate you on free will if you would like.

Remember that he doesn't accept debate challenges because he's a coward...

I don't accept ALL debate challenges, no. I've had 14 debates and lost 10 so one can hardly accuse me of cowardice regarding my reputation!

One could, however, impune a lapse in moral fortitude when one sees fellow DDO members debate exactly the same topics (of which they have all the answers ready to cut and paste time and again) over and over. One could argue that.
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/4/2009 11:02:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/4/2009 7:43:25 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2009 9:48:28 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/3/2009 8:38:35 PM, AnimeFanTony wrote:
DAT I will debate you on free will if you would like.

Remember that he doesn't accept debate challenges because he's a coward...

I don't accept ALL debate challenges, no. I've had 14 debates and lost 10 so one can hardly accuse me of cowardice regarding my reputation!

One could, however, impune a lapse in moral fortitude when one sees fellow DDO members debate exactly the same topics (of which they have all the answers ready to cut and paste time and again) over and over. One could argue that.

If one actually wants a worthwhile opponent, it makes perfect sense to debate the same topic until one appears... It also makes sense to show idiots where they err.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/4/2009 11:16:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/4/2009 11:02:29 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/4/2009 7:43:25 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/3/2009 9:48:28 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/3/2009 8:38:35 PM, AnimeFanTony wrote:
DAT I will debate you on free will if you would like.

Remember that he doesn't accept debate challenges because he's a coward...

I don't accept ALL debate challenges, no. I've had 14 debates and lost 10 so one can hardly accuse me of cowardice regarding my reputation!

One could, however, impune a lapse in moral fortitude when one sees fellow DDO members debate exactly the same topics (of which they have all the answers ready to cut and paste time and again) over and over. One could argue that.

If one actually wants a worthwhile opponent, it makes perfect sense to debate the same topic until one appears... It also makes sense to show idiots where they err.

Ever thought about politics?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/5/2009 7:18:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is a very good example of how Christianity needs to bend over backwards when the human population gets smarter. People like to say that the Bible has not changed in thousands of years. In reality, the Bible of today is interpreted in a manner that is completely different from the Bible of 1000 years ago, or even the old testament of 2000 years ago. Young Earth Creationism, for example.

I'm wondering when it is that people will finally concede that the Bible is a relic and not doctrine.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/5/2009 12:57:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/5/2009 7:18:54 AM, Kleptin wrote:
This is a very good example of how Christianity needs to bend over backwards when the human population gets smarter. People like to say that the Bible has not changed in thousands of years. In reality, the Bible of today is interpreted in a manner that is completely different from the Bible of 1000 years ago, or even the old testament of 2000 years ago. Young Earth Creationism, for example.

I'm wondering when it is that people will finally concede that the Bible is a relic and not doctrine.

You MUST give examples of your points. Or else we are likely (especially with your reputation) to suspect that you are just making this all up to score some cheap points:
How and where has the Bible itself been interpreted differently?
Which aspect of young Earth creationism are you refering to?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/7/2009 8:56:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/21/2009 8:34:44 AM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
But given time and human nature, even a non-omniscient being could tell that they would eat the fruit. They can only not be curious for so long. It's their/our nature.

Not to mention a nature that was bestowed upon us by that very being.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/7/2009 9:22:52 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Which is usually explained away as the story of the fall of man being an allegory wherein Adam is actually the Hebrew "adam" which means MAN or MANKIND...

Anyway, in the story, Adam blames God by saying "The woman YOU put here gave it to me, so I ate it..."

Makes sooooo much more sense as a cultural and pancultural allegory. Unfortunately, there are lots of idiots out there that believe in talking snakes and magical gardens.

Just another tidbit for those morons who believe the English translation... God never "walked" in the Garden of Eden - The word used is Ruah, which doesn't have an English equivalent, but means something along the lines of "spirit wind."
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/7/2009 9:22:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 8:56:34 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 8/21/2009 8:34:44 AM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
But given time and human nature, even a non-omniscient being could tell that they would eat the fruit. They can only not be curious for so long. It's their/our nature.

Not to mention a nature that was bestowed upon us by that very being.

You MUST give examples of your points. Or else we are likely (especially with your reputation) to suspect that you are just making this all up to score some cheap points:
How and where has the Bible itself been interpreted differently?
Which aspect of young Earth creationism are you refering to?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/7/2009 9:49:38 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 9:22:52 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Which is usually explained away as the story of the fall of man being an allegory wherein Adam is actually the Hebrew "adam" which means MAN or MANKIND...

Anyway, in the story, Adam blames God by saying "The woman YOU put here gave it to me, so I ate it..."

Makes sooooo much more sense as a cultural and pancultural allegory. Unfortunately, there are lots of idiots out there that believe in talking snakes and magical gardens.

Just another tidbit for those morons who believe the English translation... God never "walked" in the Garden of Eden - The word used is Ruah, which doesn't have an English equivalent, but means something along the lines of "spirit wind."

Haha, passing wind XD

The problem with certain Christians grasping the concept of allegory is that it has been a tradition for religious leaders to take advantage of their sheep. As time goes on, people who start to interpret the Bible outside the literal meaning will eventually run into trouble. After all, if one thing has a figurative meaning, why not the entire thing?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/7/2009 10:16:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/7/2009 9:22:52 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
Which is usually explained away as the story of the fall of man being an allegory wherein Adam is actually the Hebrew "adam" which means MAN or MANKIND...

Anyway, in the story, Adam blames God by saying "The woman YOU put here gave it to me, so I ate it..."

Makes sooooo much more sense as a cultural and pancultural allegory. Unfortunately, there are lots of idiots out there that believe in talking snakes and magical gardens.

Just another tidbit for those morons who believe the English translation... God never "walked" in the Garden of Eden - The word used is Ruah, which doesn't have an English equivalent, but means something along the lines of "spirit wind."

Knowledge puffs up the Bible teaches.. Looks like it's BANG ON yet again.
I know God did not walk because God is invisible so I understand exactly in what sense He 'walked': Spiritual discernment you see?

The garden of Eden is exactly true.

The fact that I believe it and you do not is expressed perfectly in that I easily dominate this site and you are an ineffectual lapsed catholic.
The Cross.. the Cross.