Total Posts:220|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

There is no such thing as a sinful Christian

wierdman
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:34:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

Where did you get that from??
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
WriterDave
Posts: 934
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:36:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Christians would respond that humans are not able or not willing to obey all of God's commands.

Some Christians would go the "not able" route, which raises the question of what God was been smoking when he made them, but most would say that God created humans with the potential to not obey his commands, where "potential" is meant in the sense that he did not know for certain whether they would or not. But they are unable to square the existence of such creatures with the subsequent existence of some such creatures in heaven, a place where it is certain that all creatures will freely obey all of God's commands for an infinite time.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

Edit To Civilize, with FAQs: http://bit.ly...
Insult Ownership: http://bit.ly...
Haters: http://bit.ly...

"I said you are a fake, a phony, and a fraud, but that doesn't mean I think you're putting on an act." --Innomen
wierdman
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:37:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:34:07 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

Where did you get that from??

I was jst thinking....I'm kind of bored.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:39:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:37:28 PM, wierdman wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:34:07 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

Where did you get that from??

I was jst thinking....I'm kind of bored.

So it was a bare assertion.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:39:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John 1:10
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
The Cross.. the Cross.
wierdman
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:39:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:39:00 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:37:28 PM, wierdman wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:34:07 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

Where did you get that from??

I was jst thinking....I'm kind of bored.

So it was a bare assertion.

yea
wierdman
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:42:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:36:36 PM, WriterDave wrote:
Christians would respond that humans are not able or not willing to obey all of God's commands.

Some Christians would go the "not able" route, which raises the question of what God was been smoking when he made them, but most would say that God created humans with the potential to not obey his commands, where "potential" is meant in the sense that he did not know for certain whether they would or not. But they are unable to square the existence of such creatures with the subsequent existence of some such creatures in heaven, a place where it is certain that all creatures will freely obey all of God's commands for an infinite time.

I understand where your coming from but in the same way, God knew that we were imperfect. Which is why he gave us a means to ask for his forgiveness. I am simpl saying that a true Christian will take advantage of this opportunity, but also striving to meet the will of God in there everyday life.....(I'm not trying to be religious and shizz here)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:43:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

This is exactly what I dislike about religion. There's so much room to make things up for the hell of it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
wierdman
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 4:44:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:43:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

This is exactly what I dislike about religion. There's so much room to make things up for the hell of it.

Lol I was just wondering if this could be true.
WriterDave
Posts: 934
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:05:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:39:13 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John 1:10
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

Edit To Civilize, with FAQs: http://bit.ly...
Insult Ownership: http://bit.ly...
Haters: http://bit.ly...

"I said you are a fake, a phony, and a fraud, but that doesn't mean I think you're putting on an act." --Innomen
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:13:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

I think Christian's go contrary to what God desires for us as well as non-Christians. What makes Christians different is that we recognize our need for one to save us from ourselves & then we thrust ourselves upon that savior for redemption's sake. This doesn't mean we don't backslide.

Rather I think the Christian's life ought to be one of an overall net improvement than from where they started. But ultimately it's about cultivating a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit- sin diminishes as a by-product but we'll always have it in this life. However we are assured of salvation upon entering into a saving relationship with God.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:16:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:43:28 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

This is exactly what I dislike about religion. There's so much room to make things up for the hell of it.

This is what Christians dislike about religion too. Had I been taught doctrine rather than puffy sunday school stories throughout my youth I probably wouldn't have become an atheist in my past.

But the Bible is sound in what it teaches, it's useful for instruction regarding doctrine. That's why we have it. Because all this airy-fairy speculation is constrained at least by the Bible.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:25:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

everyone sins... we are born into sin... the only person who didn't sin was jesus. it's our job as christians to resist sin as best we can and build our relationship with god. A christian cannot say who is or is not a "christian" and who is or is not to go to heaven. to do so would claim to know God's will, which is beyond us.
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:28:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:05:18 PM, WriterDave wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:39:13 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John 1:10
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.


Yup, that's a scenario in which the law served as a protective measure for women POW-- she was the one who benefitted from this legislation: this law defended her rights & personal dignity compared to other tribes in the ANE.

Common practice was to rape, not so for the Hebrews because of this law. She was to be treated as a full-fledged wife! (which in that day was a free ticket- believe me... life was brutal & women needed marriage fast). Furthermore marriage wasn't entered into lightly either- it wasn't for lust reasons, etc.

The separation process allowed for a reflection period: Women POW's were given a chance to contemplate whether they wanted their old ways or the better, less savage Hebrew way.

The "if you are not pleased with her" of a trivial sense, for the mosaic law tookseriously the sanctity of marriage. It just meant that if for some REASON the man's attitude changed, the woman had to be set free.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:29:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:25:46 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

everyone sins... we are born into sin... the only person who didn't sin was jesus. it's our job as christians to resist sin as best we can and build our relationship with god. A christian cannot say who is or is not a "christian" and who is or is not to go to heaven. to do so would claim to know God's will, which is beyond us.

Original sin is a horrible concept for a benevolent God.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:30:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
****

The "if you are not pleased with her" is not of a trivial sense, for the mosaic law tookseriously the sanctity of marriage. It just meant that if for some REASON the man's attitude changed, the woman had to be set free.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:30:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:29:31 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:25:46 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

everyone sins... we are born into sin... the only person who didn't sin was jesus. it's our job as christians to resist sin as best we can and build our relationship with god. A christian cannot say who is or is not a "christian" and who is or is not to go to heaven. to do so would claim to know God's will, which is beyond us.

Original sin is a horrible concept for a benevolent God.

Even if I accepted original sin, it's not God's concept- it's human actuality.
Lickdafoot
Posts: 5,599
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 5:39:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:29:31 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:25:46 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

everyone sins... we are born into sin... the only person who didn't sin was jesus. it's our job as christians to resist sin as best we can and build our relationship with god. A christian cannot say who is or is not a "christian" and who is or is not to go to heaven. to do so would claim to know God's will, which is beyond us.

Original sin is a horrible concept for a benevolent God.

how so?
WAKE UP AND READ THIS: http://www.debate.org...
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 8:15:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:39:24 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:29:31 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:25:46 PM, Lickdafoot wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

everyone sins... we are born into sin... the only person who didn't sin was jesus. it's our job as christians to resist sin as best we can and build our relationship with god. A christian cannot say who is or is not a "christian" and who is or is not to go to heaven. to do so would claim to know God's will, which is beyond us.

Original sin is a horrible concept for a benevolent God.

how so?

I have to pay for what my ancestor did. Adam and Eve started sin, right? They had no basis or even knowledge of morality, and thus should not be held accountable for something that they had no way of knowing if it was wrong or right.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
TheOrator
Posts: 172
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 8:24:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

You know, there's a well known piece of Christian literature that opposes that. It's called the Bible, you should pick up a copy.
My legend begins in the 12th century
TheOrator
Posts: 172
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 8:31:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:28:27 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:05:18 PM, WriterDave wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:39:13 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John 1:10
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.


Yup, that's a scenario in which the law served as a protective measure for women POW-- she was the one who benefitted from this legislation: this law defended her rights & personal dignity compared to other tribes in the ANE.

Common practice was to rape, not so for the Hebrews because of this law. She was to be treated as a full-fledged wife! (which in that day was a free ticket- believe me... life was brutal & women needed marriage fast). Furthermore marriage wasn't entered into lightly either- it wasn't for lust reasons, etc.

The separation process allowed for a reflection period: Women POW's were given a chance to contemplate whether they wanted their old ways or the better, less savage Hebrew way.

The "if you are not pleased with her" of a trivial sense, for the mosaic law tookseriously the sanctity of marriage. It just meant that if for some REASON the man's attitude changed, the woman had to be set free.

Just to clear something up, this does actually justify rape, not prohibit it. The only difference is that in addition to sleeping with her against her will, you're now marrying her against her will.
And shaving her head against her will, but that's more of a rudeness thing :P
My legend begins in the 12th century
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 10:02:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 8:31:08 PM, TheOrator wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:28:27 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
At 6/18/2012 5:05:18 PM, WriterDave wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:39:13 PM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 6/18/2012 4:28:22 PM, wierdman wrote:
In my opinion, there s no such thing as a sinful Christian. To be a true Christian, you have to be able to obey Gods rules at all times. In the case that you do sin, yo are always able to pray and ask for forgiveness. Anything short is not a Christian and claiming to be a Christian with the worst of qualities is simply hypocritical.

John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

John 1:10
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.


Yup, that's a scenario in which the law served as a protective measure for women POW-- she was the one who benefitted from this legislation: this law defended her rights & personal dignity compared to other tribes in the ANE.

Common practice was to rape, not so for the Hebrews because of this law. She was to be treated as a full-fledged wife! (which in that day was a free ticket- believe me... life was brutal & women needed marriage fast). Furthermore marriage wasn't entered into lightly either- it wasn't for lust reasons, etc.

The separation process allowed for a reflection period: Women POW's were given a chance to contemplate whether they wanted their old ways or the better, less savage Hebrew way.

The "if you are not pleased with her" of a trivial sense, for the mosaic law tookseriously the sanctity of marriage. It just meant that if for some REASON the man's attitude changed, the woman had to be set free.

Just to clear something up, this does actually justify rape, not prohibit it. The only difference is that in addition to sleeping with her against her will, you're now marrying her against her will.
And shaving her head against her will, but that's more of a rudeness thing :P

It certainly does not justify rape, esp since there are commandments against it, & esp since Hebrews aren't allowed to marry simply for lustful reasons. You're thinking has to be within the context of the Hebrew teachings... the Hebrews weren't perfect, but what set them apart from all other brutal ANE tribes & city states, was their mosaic law. Which was a moral island in a sea of depravity.

Regarding the shaving of the head, I don't know what this was- probably a marker for who she was (we're not told her head is to be kept shaved) & then as she's assimilated into the Hebrew culture her hair is renewed or something or other. No immorality clear there.
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 10:04:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails.

And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.

But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her."
Reason_Alliance
Posts: 1,283
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 10:12:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 10:04:07 PM, Reason_Alliance wrote:
"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails.

And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.

But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her."

So in warfare against non-Canaanite nations, the Israelites could take prisoners, including young women as wives.

Note that this is not a requirement of the law, or an action the Lord necessarily endorsed; it was a permission granted to make more tolerable a practice tolerable at the time.

A captive wife would surely live under conditions more favorable than those for a woman not so chosen.

If her captive later rejected her as a wife, she could not be made a slave.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 10:27:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 5:05:18 PM, WriterDave wrote:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; and she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.


Yup, that's a scenario in which the law served as a protective measure for women POW-- she was the one who benefitted from this legislation: this law defended her rights & personal dignity compared to other tribes in the ANE.

How about the right not to be f@cked by the person or people who just killed your mother, father, children etc ? is that right in there some where ?

Common practice was to rape, not so for the Hebrews because of this law. She was to be treated as a full-fledged wife! (which in that day was a free ticket- believe me... life was brutal & women needed marriage fast). Furthermore marriage wasn't entered into lightly either- it wasn't for lust reasons, etc.

The separation process allowed for a reflection period: Women POW's were given a chance to contemplate whether they wanted their old ways or the better, less savage Hebrew way.

The "if you are not pleased with her" of a trivial sense, for the mosaic law tookseriously the sanctity of marriage. It just meant that if for some REASON the man's attitude changed, the woman had to be set free.

Just to clear something up, this does actually justify rape, not prohibit it. The only difference is that in addition to sleeping with her against her will, you're now marrying her against her will.
And shaving her head against her will, but that's more of a rudeness thing :P

It certainly does not justify rape, esp since there are commandments against it, & esp since Hebrews aren't allowed to marry simply for lustful reasons. You're thinking has to be within the context of the Hebrew teachings... the Hebrews weren't perfect, but what set them apart from all other brutal ANE tribes & city states, was their mosaic law. Which was a moral island in a sea of depravity.

It doesn't justify rape ? so can this captive woman get the choice of not having the herbrew "thou shalt go in unto her," ?

If the answer is no, then yes, this is justifying rape. The woman is a spoil of war. But hey, after you have had your way with her you can send her on her merry way.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 11:23:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 11:06:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
*sigh*

Do you sin pooka?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/18/2012 11:24:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/18/2012 11:23:21 PM, tvellalott wrote:
At 6/18/2012 11:06:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
*sigh*

Do you sin pooka?

Nevah.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-