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Belief?

devout_skeptic
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6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence? Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God. Why would God want to remain hidden from people?
Peace,
Doug
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
devout_skeptic
Posts: 46
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6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

God isn't hidden?
Peace,
Doug
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/21/2012 6:23:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?

It's because there is literally 0 evidence he exists, and 0 good reasons to believe he is actually there. Either he doesn't exist, or he is extremely hidden.
vbaculum
Posts: 1,274
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6/21/2012 6:25:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

You have to open your heart to Jesus, be touched by him and then you will believe. And if that doesn't work, you go to Hell like Mother Teresa.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence? Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God. Why would God want to remain hidden from people?
"If you claim to value nonviolence and you consume animal products, you need to rethink your position on nonviolence." - Gary Francione

THE WORLD IS VEGAN! If you want it
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/21/2012 6:27:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

We would expect "hiddenness" is there was lets say, a Deist God. However, the type of God described in The Bible is certainly hard to believe in based on the type of world we live in. If that God really existed, this world would be a different place.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/21/2012 6:43:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:23:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?

It's because there is literally 0 evidence he exists, and 0 good reasons to believe he is actually there. Either he doesn't exist, or he is extremely hidden.


0 evidence to you, 0 good reasons to you; key words: To you.

We're all like infants trying to figure out how what these images on this box thingy are(TV).. to be honest, they probably have a better chance of figuring that out, then you do of finding God using your own methods.

which is another point.

You are using methods that have no bearing on whether there is a God or not... Even though it's obvious to me, that there is a God, it seems you are deliberately ignoring it..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/21/2012 6:45:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:27:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

We would expect "hiddenness" is there was lets say, a Deist God. However, the type of God described in The Bible is certainly hard to believe in based on the type of world we live in. If that God really existed, this world would be a different place.


lmao.. how the F*ck do you know??

I can tell you right now, you probably read a handful of scriptures, and most of those were reference from other atheists trying to refute or mock the bible..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
devout_skeptic
Posts: 46
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6/21/2012 6:49:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?

Because no loving God who required belief in it would be so undetectable. God as most Christians define him is an omnipotent, omniscient, maximally loving, maximally good and is personal, imminent and acts in this world. If God acted in this world it would be detectable and certainly by now we would have some evidence of his action in this world but there is none.
Peace,
Doug
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/21/2012 7:07:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:49:57 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?

Because no loving God who required belief in it would be so undetectable. God as most Christians define him is an omnipotent, omniscient, maximally loving, maximally good and is personal, imminent and acts in this world. If God acted in this world it would be detectable and certainly by now we would have some evidence of his action in this world but there is none.


Your argument begins, by describing attribute of God, as something outsdie of him..

example: "no loving God who required belief in it would be so undetectable"

Based on your idea of love, or the worlds idea of love? or based on God's love?

You see, your entire point, is based off what YOU think an omni-benevolent, potent, scient, being woul do. You just can't get your head around the possibility, that it really doesn't matter what you think.. or what i think, or what anyone thinks; except God.

He reveals himself very plainly in the scriptures, and in my life, everyday.. just like i know my cat is in the room, i know he is there.. BUT one of the most significant things about God, is that he is so Alien to us!

He has to be God, because he is nothing like us.. the bible says this about him:

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the Lord.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


It's so egotistical, and overly boring and obvious to hear people say things like what you just said.. it makes me think: "who the h3ll do you think you are?"

Seriously, you have that much faith in man, that you think there is no possbile way, this type of God can exist if you can't comprehend it???

I got an idea.. get over yourselves?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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6/21/2012 7:07:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:45:01 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:27:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

We would expect "hiddenness" is there was lets say, a Deist God. However, the type of God described in The Bible is certainly hard to believe in based on the type of world we live in. If that God really existed, this world would be a different place.


lmao.. how the F*ck do you know??

I can tell you right now, you probably read a handful of scriptures, and most of those were reference from other atheists trying to refute or mock the bible..

I can tell you right now, you are wrong. I've read most of The Bible, my mother used to force me to go to church when I was a child and we went to church every Christmas eve as well. I was raised a Christian, so it seems you tend to make unfounded assumptions.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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6/21/2012 7:15:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 7:07:49 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:45:01 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:27:29 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

We would expect "hiddenness" is there was lets say, a Deist God. However, the type of God described in The Bible is certainly hard to believe in based on the type of world we live in. If that God really existed, this world would be a different place.


lmao.. how the F*ck do you know??

I can tell you right now, you probably read a handful of scriptures, and most of those were reference from other atheists trying to refute or mock the bible..

I can tell you right now, you are wrong. I've read most of The Bible, my mother used to force me to go to church when I was a child and we went to church every Christmas eve as well. I was raised a Christian, so it seems you tend to make unfounded assumptions.


Oh no, not Christmas eve as well!

i have to say, i would hate to have been forced to do that.. but it wasn't very hard for me to accept; since i was a kid, it was like i always knew God.

But, still.. i doubt your knowledge. is there any way we can put this to the test?

maybe you can summarize it? the essentials?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
devout_skeptic
Posts: 46
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6/21/2012 8:33:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 7:07:09 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:49:57 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?

Because no loving God who required belief in it would be so undetectable. God as most Christians define him is an omnipotent, omniscient, maximally loving, maximally good and is personal, imminent and acts in this world. If God acted in this world it would be detectable and certainly by now we would have some evidence of his action in this world but there is none.


Your argument begins, by describing attribute of God, as something outsdie of him..

example: "no loving God who required belief in it would be so undetectable"

Based on your idea of love, or the worlds idea of love? or based on God's love?

In order to talk about love it has to mean the same thing for everyone. It makes absolutely no sense to say my idea of love is different than Gods idea of love. What are we talking about then? If my idea of good & love is different than Gods idea of good & love then it doesn't mean anything to say that god is maximally good or maximally loving.

Part of loving some one or something is wanting the best for them. If you say it's not then I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. If God exists and loves us he would want the best for all people and if he were omnipotent he would be able clearly unequivocally communicate what he wanted from us.


You see, your entire point, is based off what YOU think an omni-benevolent, potent, scient, being woul do. You just can't get your head around the possibility, that it really doesn't matter what you think.. or what i think, or what anyone thinks; except God.

My point is based off of what those words mean. They mean what they mean. If god is those things then he has characteristics that coincide with the meanings of those words.


He reveals himself very plainly in the scriptures, and in my life, everyday.. just like i know my cat is in the room, i know he is there.. BUT one of the most significant things about God, is that he is so Alien to us!

I don't know what your definition of plainly is. There seems to be much confusion as to the meaning and interpretation of scriptures which have resulted in thousands of denominations of Christianity nearly all of whom claim that everyone else has it wrong. If that is what plainly communicating is I'd hate to see God communicate cryptically.


He has to be God, because he is nothing like us.. the bible says this about him:

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the Lord.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


It's so egotistical, and overly boring and obvious to hear people say things like what you just said.. it makes me think: "who the h3ll do you think you are?"

It is egotistical to think that God created an entire universe just for one particular animal on one planet an that he cares only about certain of these animals and then chooses just a few of them to know him and you happen to be one of them. That sounds way more self important to me than having honest questions and doubts about what people tell me and books say.


Seriously, you have that much faith in man, that you think there is no possbile way, this type of God can exist if you can't comprehend it???

I got an idea.. get over yourselves?

I don't have to have faith in humans I know they exist. There are numerous logical inconsistencies in that definition of God. I can't comprehend 2 + 2 not equaling 4 or a square not being a special type of rectangle with 4 sides of equal length joining at right angles. If it doesn't mean anything to say that God has certain qualities than why attribute those qualities to him?
Peace,
Doug
Paradox_7
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6/22/2012 2:44:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 8:33:05 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Because no loving God who required belief in it would be so undetectable. God as most Christians define him is an omnipotent, omniscient, maximally loving, maximally good and is personal, imminent and acts in this world. If God acted in this world it would be detectable and certainly by now we would have some evidence of his action in this world but there is none.

In order to talk about love it has to mean the same thing for everyone. It makes absolutely no sense to say my idea of love is different than Gods idea of love. What are we talking about then? If my idea of good & love is different than Gods idea of good & love then it doesn't mean anything to say that god is maximally good or maximally loving.

Incorrect. Your idea of love, is based off of your limited knowledge and lack of motivation to seek and further understanding. You'd be happy accepting a humans perpective of love, however, people claim to do things out of love all the time.. things we all might not attribute to love, or maybe someone would deny love, even though it is apparent they do love. Our fickle minds, and subjective society establishes: that we have no idea what we're talking about; especially when we try to figure it out on our own..

If youre idea of love is different then God's, then it doesn't make him any less maximal.. it makes you wrong.

Part of loving some one or something is wanting the best for them. If you say it's not then I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. If God exists and loves us he would want the best for all people and if he were omnipotent he would be able clearly unequivocally communicate what he wanted from us.

I would agree, Love includes, most essentially, wanting or doing whats best for others. This, though, is the utter difference between our love and God's. Where we have only an infantile understanding of whats best for someone, God has omniscient understanding of whats best for everyone.. So, you are basically projecting your mind, to be equal if not greater then the mind of a supreme being.

Now, I sincerely believe God communicate to us through the word, and that his message is distorted by us. We are totally depraved, as far as God is concerned.. i notice a lot of evil, but nearly as much as God does; cause i'm evil.

You discredit God, for our failures, then take the almighty position, of someone who must know the purpose of life, and the mind of God- better then he does!!

Afterall, if you are going to critique the creation, and critisize the "flaw's" of the universe; you have to know what the purpose of everything is, right?

No, you have no idea.. and neither do i.

However, i can very readily say.. without understanding of purpose or motive, you cannot speak on what a perfect God "would" do, because you have no idea what his intent is or was.

My point is based off of what those words mean. They mean what they mean. If god is those things then he has characteristics that coincide with the meanings of those words.

Well lets strike a bit deeper then; what do the meanings mean? Is it possible that even though we can describe love, our understanding of all it quaities and depths of it's purpose, hinder us so severly, that our very judgment of love or our feelings of love, are actually harmful to us and others?

I believe so, and i am not to proud to admit i know very little; as i can conceive of a better way, and this(man's love) is not it.

I don't know what your definition of plainly is. There seems to be much confusion as to the meaning and interpretation of scriptures which have resulted in thousands of denominations of Christianity nearly all of whom claim that everyone else has it wrong. If that is what plainly communicating is I'd hate to see God communicate cryptically.

This also, seems like a cop out from the atheistic/agnostic side. I hear time and time again, that non-believers, know the the bible better, then belivers do. I laugh at this, because the argument of disagreement among believers(Christians) along with the notion of non-believing theologians is easily refuted by asking: "whos version do you know better?" lol

@ any rate; i do believe, a non-believer, who actually studied the scriptures would come to the conclusion of my theology.. because they have no stake in it, and have no impression of God, but the one portrayed in the bible if they read it.

Most Christians, imo, create an image of God in their minds and hearts, before leanring about who God says he is. This then, contaminates their doctrine, and walla! you have 20394234234 denominations.. whom most, claim are right.

Once again though, People suck, not God..

It is egotistical to think that God created an entire universe just for one particular animal on one planet an that he cares only about certain of these animals and then chooses just a few of them to know him and you happen to be one of them. That sounds way more self important to me than having honest questions and doubts about what people tell me and books say.

Hmm.. way to avoid the point. How can knowing your helpless, knowing you don't matter, knowing the only reason you have this speck of knowledge is because it was given to you, and being greatful for it, egotistical??

Seems to be the opposite of self-important... more like unimportant and humble.

You seem to proud to admit you know nothing, you seem to take comfort in your own flawed reasoning.. and i have no idea why. The world is full of disagreement, anger, hate, confusion, and pride (how do those mix and produce confidence??)

I don't have to have faith in humans I know they exist. There are numerous logical inconsistencies in that definition of God. I can't comprehend 2 + 2 not equaling 4 or a square not being a special type of rectangle with 4 sides of equal length joining at right angles. If it doesn't mean anything to say that God has certain qualities than why attribute those qualities to him?

Faith in human reason, not in humans existance... =|

Whats a logical inconsistancy of God? how can you even challange and extralogical being by the standard he created.. you're like a piece of bread doubting the possibility of a baker using dough.. (with about the same comparison of brain power as: bread vs man), We don't attribute qualities to God, we seek to understand them.. we don't hear of them, come up with what we think they are, then accuse God of being a fake.. just because you've been able to conjur up some half-a$$'d version, of his creation.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
devout_skeptic
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6/22/2012 5:56:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:44:06 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

Incorrect. Your idea of love, is based off of your limited knowledge and lack of motivation to seek and further understanding. You'd be happy accepting a humans perpective of love, however, people claim to do things out of love all the time.. things we all might not attribute to love, or maybe someone would deny love, even though it is apparent they do love. Our fickle minds, and subjective society establishes: that we have no idea what we're talking about; especially when we try to figure it out on our own..

Then it is pretty useless to describe your God as maximally loving. To say that God is maximally loving but not the way you define love and not the love you know about or understand isn't really saying anything at all meaningful about God. I am not trying to tie you to a definition of God and in fact I choose the definition but you seem to accept it. It is pretty much the C.S. Lewis definition which I find that most Christians accept.

The whole definition issue is a bit perplexing to me. Words mean what the dictionary defines them to mean. Love is described in the Oxford English Dictionary as "1.a strong feeling of affection". If God is maximally loving and it means anything to say that then God has the most strong feeling of affection for us that can be had. Honestly I don't require anything from the people I have a strong feeling of affection for. I am just fond of their presence. I can't understand what about loving them would make me want to impose certain rules on them like to be with me you have to have read this book written by bronze age nomads and interpret it the correct way and accept this crazy story about a dude who performed miracles and was his own father born of a virgin and rose from the dead and walked around for a few days before ascending into space. My comprehension of love is sufficient enough to know that I wouldn't require people I loved to believe stuff like that in order to be with me even the stuff was true. I would shun people that I loved if they thieved, raped, molested or murdered but not because they misunderstood something I said. What about loving someone would motivate you to demand they worship you. I feel so much affection for you if you don't worship me and adore me I won't hang out with you?


If youre idea of love is different then God's, then it doesn't make him any less maximal.. it makes you wrong.

Okay I guess we disagree. I have a good idea of what I mean when I say I love someone and what it means to be loved by others. All I can really gather from your comment is that you don't or are unwilling to concede that it means something to love whether you are God or human.


I would agree, Love includes, most essentially, wanting or doing whats best for others. This, though, is the utter difference between our love and God's. Where we have only an infantile understanding of whats best for someone, God has omniscient understanding of whats best for everyone.. So, you are basically projecting your mind, to be equal if not greater then the mind of a supreme being.

I am not projecting my mind to be equal if not greater than a supreme being if only for the fact that I do not believe in anything like what most people would describe God as so I can't project myself to be greater than something which I don't even believe exists. You seem to repeatedly imply or out right claim that I am egotistical or arrogant for pondering what the implications of God having various qualities which people ascribe to him are. They are genuine questions and your response that people who ask them are egotistical or arrogant seems a bit like "you dare to question the mighty & powerful Oz" which is of course a dodge or an evasion. Don't look behind the curtain.

While I may not know what is ultimately best in every circumstance for someone as a Christian God supposedly does I don't think that you can argue that loving someone entails refusing to be with them for misunderstanding you or not hearing you. Nor requiring them to correctly interpret cryptic texts or worship you in a certain way or at all.

I was running out of room so I deleted what was underneath. Now I have plenty of room but I don't know what was written to respond to. Doh!
Peace,
Doug
WriterDave
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6/22/2012 7:00:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.


Back in college, when I thought Pascal's Wager was worth a damn, I wrote a paper defending it and I addressed this issue: belief can't be self-induced. I argued that it can be self-induced, by immersing yourself into Christian communities and/or practices. In other words, "fake it til you make it."

I still believe that theistic belief can be self-induced in that manner; indeed, I later came to see that such immersion is one of only two ways that a person can become a theist -- the other is to have been raised as one. Nobody becomes a Christian in a social vacuum. Even someone who says the "sinner's prayer" without desiring, at some level, to become a theist will not become a theist. (Christians will no doubt say that their all-powerful God is too weak to overcome the "hardening of the heart" of such people, which aside from being nonsensical on the face of it, only applies to people who desire at some level to remain an atheist. It's possible to not have any desires either way.)

If I'm right about this, then belief is a choice.
Writer. Liberal atheist. Official "Official of the FREEDO Bureaucracy" of the FREEDO Bureaucracy.

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devout_skeptic
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6/22/2012 7:51:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:44:06 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 8:33:05 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:


Now, I sincerely believe God communicate to us through the word, and that his message is distorted by us. We are totally depraved, as far as God is concerned.. i notice a lot of evil, but nearly as much as God does; cause i'm evil.

Okay. I especially don't care for the self loathing aspect of Christian doctrine. I am not sure what you define as evil but i just don't think you are. I could be wrong.


You discredit God, for our failures, then take the almighty position, of someone who must know the purpose of life, and the mind of God- better then he does!!

I don't discredit God for our failures because I don't believe God exists. I look at what people define their God to be and make inferences from those descriptions. I don't believe that the universe or life has an ultimate purpose so I don't presume to know what the purpose I don't believe in is. I believe we make our own purpose and decide what about life is meaningful to us. I think that this is effectively what everyone does regardless of whether there is a God or ultimate universal meaning or purpose.


Afterall, if you are going to critique the creation, and critisize the "flaw's" of the universe; you have to know what the purpose of everything is, right?

I accept the universe as it is. It is only if you say that it was designed and planned by an intelligence that I find flaws in the design. The universe and the world I am a part of makes perfect sense to me as the result of mindless purposeless forces. Everything is as I would expect it to be if this is the case. Since it is the theist who claims that the universe was created with a purpose to mean something I am only critiquing the flaws of that idea not the universe which in my view just is the way it is.

No, you have no idea.. and neither do i.

Nope. I just don't see why it has to have a purpose. Certainly there is none evident to me.


However, i can very readily say.. without understanding of purpose or motive, you cannot speak on what a perfect God "would" do, because you have no idea what his intent is or was.

Don't look behind the curtain!


My point is based off of what those words mean. They mean what they mean. If god is those things then he has characteristics that coincide with the meanings of those words.

Well lets strike a bit deeper then; what do the meanings mean? Is it possible that even though we can describe love, our understanding of all it quaities and depths of it's purpose, hinder us so severly, that our very judgment of love or our feelings of love, are actually harmful to us and others?

I don't think our feelings of love are harmful to us or others. Our feelings of possessiveness, jealousy and envy that may be muddled up & concurrently felt along with love perhaps.


I believe so, and i am not to proud to admit i know very little; as i can conceive of a better way, and this(man's love) is not it.

I know very little as well. I wont stop trying to understand things as best I can.


I don't know what your definition of plainly is. There seems to be much confusion as to the meaning and interpretation of scriptures which have resulted in thousands of denominations of Christianity nearly all of whom claim that everyone else has it wrong. If that is what plainly communicating is I'd hate to see God communicate cryptically.

This also, seems like a cop out from the atheistic/agnostic side. I hear time and time again, that non-believers, know the the bible better, then belivers do. I laugh at this, because the argument of disagreement among believers(Christians) along with the notion of non-believing theologians is easily refuted by asking: "whos version do you know better?" lol

I am little confused by your response here. I nowhere in any of my posts claim to know the bible at all. I am vaguely familiar with it. I was raised catholic and went to church weekly til I was 12 or so. I still pick it from time to time. But I have related none of this till now & have made no claim to know the bible at all and I honestly do not doubt you are more familiar with it if you say you are only because it wouldn't take much to be more familiar with it than me.

As regards to your response to as you framed it "the argument from confusion" I just don't understand it. Perhaps you can clarify.


@ any rate; i do believe, a non-believer, who actually studied the scriptures would come to the conclusion of my theology.. because they have no stake in it, and have no impression of God, but the one portrayed in the bible if they read it.

Okay. I am not going to read the entire bible but that doesn't mean I can't talk about the parts that I have read just because I am not an expert. Again nowhere in my post have I claimed to know the contents of the bible. What I have read is cryptic and at times savage and brutal. While I occasionally happen upon nuggets of wisdom in it I find it for the most part incredibly boring and often unintelligible.

Most Christians, imo, create an image of God in their minds and hearts, before leanring about who God says he is. This then, contaminates their doctrine, and walla! you have 20394234234 denominations.. whom most, claim are right.

Where an when does God say anything and where do we go to listen?


Once again though, People suck, not God..
Okay. I would accept that as... All people suck some of the time, some people suck all of the time, but not all people suck all of the time. Again I can't think God sucks cause I don't believe and nothing neither sucks nor blows.

It is egotistical to think that God created an entire universe just for one particular animal on one planet an that he cares only about certain of these animals and then chooses just a few of them to know him and you happen to be one of them. That sounds way more self important to me than having honest questions and doubts about what people tell me and books say.

Hmm.. way to avoid the point. How can knowing your helpless, knowing you don't matter, knowing the only reason you have this speck of knowledge is because it was given to you, and being greatful for it, egotistical??

I don't see how it is avoiding the point. You say my point of view is arrogant and egotistical. I just believe what my search for what I can honestly know has led me to. I don't find that arrogant or egotistical but if you believe you are the central point and purpose of your Gods creation I find that a fairly grandiose notion. Which I think is to the point.

Seems to be the opposite of self-important... more like unimportant and humble.

Okay. If to believe you are the central point and purpose of the entire universe and God created it all for humans to rule and have dominion over is humble. I mean I do understand that you are subservient to your master who lovingly demands all sorts of bizarre things from you.
Peace,
Doug
devout_skeptic
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6/22/2012 8:32:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 2:44:06 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 8:33:05 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:


You seem to proud to admit you know nothing, you seem to take comfort in your own flawed reasoning.. and i have no idea why. The world is full of disagreement, anger, hate, confusion, and pride (how do those mix and produce confidence??)

Well I don't know nothing. I know somethings and I certainly do not claim to know everything. There are things that I know and there are things that I don't know. Then there things that I don't know that I don't know and things that I don't know that I know. If there is something that I am mistaken about I am willing correct myself. You make a declarative statement that "you seem to take comfort in your own flawed reasoning.. and i have no idea why." but you don't bother to say what about my reasoning is flawed or why you think I take comfort in it or what would be comforting about it to me. So here you are claiming to know things about me (like that I take comfort in something) that you can't possibly reasonably claim to know or if you can you don't bother to say why you reason that or how you could know it.

I don't have to have faith in humans I know they exist. There are numerous logical inconsistencies in that definition of God. I can't comprehend 2 + 2 not equaling 4 or a square not being a special type of rectangle with 4 sides of equal length joining at right angles. If it doesn't mean anything to say that God has certain qualities than why attribute those qualities to him?

Faith in human reason, not in humans existance... =|

Whats a logical inconsistancy of God? how can you even challange and extralogical being by the standard he created.. you're like a piece of bread doubting the possibility of a baker using dough.. (with about the same comparison of brain power as: bread vs man), We don't attribute qualities to God, we seek to understand them.. we don't hear of them, come up with what we think they are, then accuse God of being a fake.. just because you've been able to conjur up some half-a$$'d version, of his creation.

Not challenging the God I don't believe in just the definition we have of him. God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. If he is omniscient then he knows what he will do in the future and what the future will be but if he is omnipotent then he could change his mind and do something else but then he wouldn't know what the future was or what he would do in it so he can't really be both.

If God is omniscient then he knows everything there is to know but there are things he clearly can't know. If I have never swam before I can only know so much about swimming. I can know the mechanics of holding my breath how I am supposed to move my arms and legs. I can know almost everything about swimming but I can't know what it is actually like to swim till I swim. If God is an immaterial, timeless mind he can't know what it's like to swim or a myriad of other things at least until he creates a universe and inhabits a body so he couldn't be completely omniscient.

As far as I know the universe created me and I don't doubt the universe. I don't know whether there is a God which created the universe or not. I do not know of any evidence of a God creating the universe and I do not know that one is required for the universe to exist. I am willing to say I don't know and that I may never know. I am certain there is no Christian God though.
Peace,
Doug
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6/22/2012 8:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/22/2012 7:00:46 PM, WriterDave wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.


Back in college, when I thought Pascal's Wager was worth a damn, I wrote a paper defending it and I addressed this issue: belief can't be self-induced. I argued that it can be self-induced, by immersing yourself into Christian communities and/or practices. In other words, "fake it til you make it."

I still believe that theistic belief can be self-induced in that manner; indeed, I later came to see that such immersion is one of only two ways that a person can become a theist -- the other is to have been raised as one. Nobody becomes a Christian in a social vacuum. Even someone who says the "sinner's prayer" without desiring, at some level, to become a theist will not become a theist. (Christians will no doubt say that their all-powerful God is too weak to overcome the "hardening of the heart" of such people, which aside from being nonsensical on the face of it, only applies to people who desire at some level to remain an atheist. It's possible to not have any desires either way.)

If I'm right about this, then belief is a choice.

I suppose that this is the idea of faith. You lie to yourself till you believe it is true. Not all people require faith to believe but those who do are pretty much saying I don't believe but I do. But I think it takes wanting it to be true for it to work. I don't really want things to be any way other than the way they are. I am an Atheist not because I want to be but because that is how I figure things to be.
Peace,
Doug
Jessalyn
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6/22/2012 10:30:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
EXACTLY! For some reason I have the hardest time explaining this to people. Any theist who is convinced belief is a choice needs to reevaluate.
WARNING: Hitchslaps may become inflamed when accompanied by unceasing stupidity.
Jessalyn
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6/22/2012 10:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 6:23:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 6:02:25 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:55:10 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
At 6/21/2012 5:36:41 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

I couldn't agree more.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice: why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence?

Has nothing to do with us, it has to do with those who believe... wether they discover how God made certain things work or not.. he chooses who will belive and who won't.

Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God.

I have to try and break this down, so i understand correctly.

Why would God create a universe, that is (semi-) knowable by human methods, and avoid people who use this method?

Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

He isn't.. but, either way, does it really matter?

God isn't hidden?


No! why would you suggest such a thing?

cause you can't see him, touch him, feel him?

something like that?

It's because there is literally 0 evidence he exists, and 0 good reasons to believe he is actually there. Either he doesn't exist, or he is extremely hidden.
I'd go with the former.
WARNING: Hitchslaps may become inflamed when accompanied by unceasing stupidity.
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6/23/2012 10:09:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 6/21/2012 4:56:34 PM, devout_skeptic wrote:
Belief is a mental state not a choice. Many Christians are fond of saying that Atheists choose not to belief or refuse to see evidence of God in their lives. Also I hear it said that one must choose to have faith and belief. I think that these Christians fundamentally misunderstand what it is to actually believe something. People can't choose to believe in something. Either they do or they don't.

Being that belief isn't a matter of will or choice why would a loving God only want to be with people who are capable of believing in things despite lack of objective evidence? Why would God create a universe that is knowable by scientific methodology and then eschew people who applied the same methodology that is so successful in discovering the properties of the universe to God. Why would God want to remain hidden from people?

"Belief is a mental state not a choice."

It's true, I've chosen to believe in God many times. However, it felt like willful ignorance. You don't chose what you believe, you either believe it, or you don't...